1071 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

I'be started blaming the Council for the Morning war. They outlawed AI research. The quarians were simply enforcing the ban on AI. If they didn't its likely the Council would have intervened. And the Turians are not known for surgical warfare.

Let's be real they didn't want the Council to find out.  They would have been better off alerting the Council because someone on the Council would have probably had the common sense to point out that millions of Geth whose software can be uploaded and downloaded even if mobile platforms are destroyed represents a complicated problem so we best not provoke them until we are certain we have a plan to deal with them.

Having said that if they ever did a game during this time frame I always wanted it to be in an alternate reality where the Quarians refuse to kill the Geth, they unite against the council and the player character maybe starts out in one of the other factions and basically spends the game learning about the conflict from different perspectives and then has to decide who to side with.  The choices made in the game ultimately determine whether whichever side they choose actually wins or not so it is not as simple as player sides with Council, Council wins.

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

To suppress citizen militias, the Turian Hierarchy makes use of "execution squads" known as hastatim. First, "safe camps" are established in cities to incentivize surrender. Next, hastatim soldiers are deployed door-to-door; anyone who refuses to be transported to a safe camp or demonstrates hostile intent will be shot.

This is the kind of thing the Quarians were looking at if the Council ever found out about the Geth.

Pure paranoia.  The Turians don't go around exterminating people just cus.  The Quarians would more likely face economic sanctions than they would be rounded up and executed.  Especially when the Asari and Salarians are also on the Council.

And in any event, what sort of lesson is it to teach a kid that when you f**k up which they did if we accept this law, the solution is to kill other potentially living beings to cover it up.  An adult makes a mistake, they need to own up to it.  Period.  That is what my parents taught me.

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 10:15 .

[Steelcan]

The Turians responded to humans opening a dormant mass relay with an armed invasion and attacking civilians. They sent Saren at a lone AI researcher. Turians don't half-ass.

An invasion would be likely in addition to harsh sanctions. This isn't an isolated scientist. The geth were widespread and the response from the council would be just as far reaching.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You guys are still arguing this? Make peace already. Don't argue anymore. Tell the Quarians and the Geth to kiss and make up. It's all fixable.

Because now..... I have the most paragon ending of all.... and we can thank the Citadel DLC for it. I can save the Geth and EDI in Destroy.

* Bioware retconned their Codex in the DLC with these three words. "Power up EDI...."

But before you say the words "Shepard was just talking stupidly..." know this. Bioware has been known to play fast and loose with both the Codex and Plot in this game and others. Lore is not their strong point. They have changed it when it suits their needs. And since this DLC is to be played in the middle of the game and NOT after the ending (like I wished it had been) it changes the entire lore about blue box AIs with those three words. Cringe. Put your palm to your face. Do what ever. I did not write them. The game is over. They are not patching it.

This means that EDI was powered down by the Clone and Brooks. That's right. The Blue Box was powered down. EDI is a huge AI program, right? She said that only a small portion of her runs in the robot and she can do that so long as it remains within QE distance of the Normandy, while the bulk of her runs the ship. However, the robot itself has an independent power supply, thus enabling the robot to run that small portion of EDI while the main EDI is powered down -- hence EDI's anger and desire to kill the Clone for taking such action.

Shepard had communication with Hackett before Glowboy. So Shepard has communication before shooting the tube. However, since this is a cutscene and we don't have control over our characters anymore, we cannot do more than one of three things. In reality, we would have done this:

1) Contacted the Normandy: "Normandy, Engineer Adams, this is Shepard, I am ordering you to shut down EDI. Disconnect her power. Tell her she has to sleep for a while otherwise she will die. Turn her back when the danger has passed. Do you copy?"

2) "Geth, this is Shepard Commander. If you want to survive you will have to trust me. You will have to shut down temporarily and trust us organics to reactivate you later. Because you aided us in this war we will do so. You have my promise. You must do so now. Do you copy?"

Upon receiving confirmation, Shepard shoots the tube. The ending is now paragon. The Geth and EDI survive the Destroy ending.

Do you now see? It is all fixable.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

another quick message so this doesn't get deleted

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Seeing as the Council threatened mass murder for something as minor as squatting, and has a 'shoot on sight' policy for synthetics, I wouldn't put it past them if the Geth and Quarians start fighting back.

Oh sure if the Geth and Quarians were to start fighting back I agree.  Thought you meant if the Quarians just told the truth without attacking. 

Although that is no easy pickings for the Council.  Geth manning the fleet to limit Quarian casualities while the Quarians focus and the rest of the Geth focus on building more ships and weapons makes for a pretty tough opponent.

Hell, you send some of the fleet to pick up the Krogan who would want in on some Council payback and we have ourselves a massive war.  

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 11:11 .

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

The Turians responded to humans opening a dormant mass relay with an armed invasion and attacking civilians. They sent Saren at a lone AI researcher. Turians don't half-ass.

An invasion would be likely in addition to harsh sanctions. This isn't an isolated scientist. The geth were widespread and the response from the council would be just as far reaching.

There is a difference between going after what they believed to be a rinky dink species and going after a virtually immortal synthetic army.  For all their gung ho attitude, the Council did jack **** after the MW but kill harmless AI on the Citadel and then allegedly wanted to make peace with the Geth.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
No -- he is denying that they are the same type of alive as us. Something Legion cooberates. Seems like you are the one that needs to stick to the topic.
He is stating that weather or not you can call the geth "alive" or just "aware" is always up for debate. It is never confirmed or denyed by Legion, who states that the geth are not like any form of living being since they are "purely software."
Also, if you think that, you obvously never read a single post I put up. Which actually makes sence given the headcannon you use. If you read my posts, you would know that I consider the geth as much a living being as the quarians. That is my personal belief. However, I can understand and respect the choices of others to not see them as living beings, because that is something that even Legion himself is dependent on one's interpertation of life.
And you can talk, considering how often you try to derail a topic.

No he said they are not living.  I don't know why you always try and tell me what other people said to me directly.  

StreetMagic wrote...

Geth didn't respond like living beings at all. They have self-preservation routines. Living beings experience more psychological/physical suffering beyond mere preservation instincts. There's a fvckton of pain involved when humans finally decide to revolt against something. It's something none of the AI in the ME universe have grasped. Even the apex AI race (Reapers) are so retarded that they think they're "ascending" and storing organics by hunting them down and grinding them into paste. They think they're doing everyone a service, and it's because they don't understand the concept of pain. It's just machine logic. Not the thoughts of a living being. They don't know any better. Without pain, there is no life.

Not as we are. He doesn't mean they aren't thinking beings, but he does mean that they aren't "alive" because they don't have the organ-based structure or cellular life blueprints that organics have. A notion that Legion never confirms nor denies -- how one sees the geth is open to interpertation. You can see them as "aware" or "alive" respectively. Nether one is diffinitively right. Much like the siutation in picking a side in the Morning War.

[remydat]

I will take his word for it Silver not yours. That is all.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes it IS. You just keep streatching the timeframe beyond the actual limits.
When Shepard asks, Tali revelas that she has not had any contact with Legion in-between the timeframe of now, and Since the attack. No contact with Legion between these two points. That IS what Tali says. She says that she was unable to get into any form of contact with Legion after the quarians attacked. She even states that she could have warrned him about the attack but never did, indicating her last confirmed contact was prior to the quarian invasion. Meaning SINCE THE ATTACK, there was nothing -- no word following the quarian invasion.
Also, in that conversation, I see Nothing supporting you're claim of the message being post-invasion. "Since the attack" means - "anything between now and the attack." Tali says "NO."  And now, the clincher -- She states that the last mesage she had was about the consensis, and that she passed up the chance to warn Legion about the quarians war plans in that. Meaning that at the time of the last message, the quarians hadn't attacked yet. She had a chance to warn Legion about the invasion in their last message but did not. Meaning their last contact was diffinitively pre-war.

You kept claiming that Legion cut off contact before the Quarians decided on war.  This conversation makes it clear Tali could communicate with Legion prior to the decision to go to war.  That is why Tali felt guilty about not warning Legion and that is why she put forward a proposal for negotiation.  Because despite heading back to Geth space, Tali was in contact with Legion.  

Tali says that she could have warned Legion in their last message about the invasion, but did not. That pretty diffinitively states that "Since the Attack" and now, there has been zero contact with Legion. Last message = before the invasion. Also, again, Legion's platform being in geth space isn't the same as being networked to the consensis. As Legion shows us on the Normandy in how he is able to operate independently from the rest of the geth, even after all of them have sided with the Reapers.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

I will take his word for it Silver not yours. That is all.

And his word is that he doesn't see the geth as living beings -- which is no more incorrect then seeing them as living beings is. Nither definition is right except on a personal level -- he's no more wrong in seeing them as nothing but "thinking computers" then you are in seeing them as "living beings."

[remydat]

Nope I disagree but it is still irrelevant to the larger debate.

You claimed Legion cut off contact before the Quarians voted against peace. That is wrong. Tali confirms they were still talking after the Quarians had already decided on war.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

And his word is that he doesn't see the geth as living beings -- which is no more incorrect then seeing them as living beings is. Nither definition is right except on a personal level -- he's no more wrong in seeing them as nothing but "thinking computers" then you are in seeing them as "living beings."

Nope game says they are alive.  Legion says they are alive.  Legion says he has a soul and Tali agrees.  Even when she stabs him and Shep puts three bullets in him, she agrees.  He is using headcanon.  I am using what the game tells me.  Thinking computers don't have souls.  Living beings do.

Modifié par remydat, 20 juin 2013 - 10:34 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Legion states that the geth are no more then simple V.I.s. Even the Codex "Geth:Technology" advocates this. Also, the problem last time was that they became segregated when the Megastructure was attacked.

Also, I was under the impression you thought that geth were alive regardless of being networked? Otherwise, that would mean you think that a seperate geth would not be a living being without being in a network and thus, not worth as much individually as another organic. Is that what you actually think?

A single program is a VI.  When enough programs are networked it forms life.  I have never disputed this.  And what do you mean by a separate geth?  A separate mobile platform has enough programs (around 100) to form life although that life is dumber than a mobile platform with 1183 programs.  A single geth program is akin to a collection of brain cells.  You destroy enough brain cells and you destroy that person. 
 

But that is always up for debate, is it not? Enough programs link together, and you get a computer that can compute problems itself. Is that the same as life? That's the question repeatedly asked -- what is actual sentiance and does it equate the same as being "alive"?
By you're logic, the geth aren't alive when individual -- no more intelligent then a varren = not alive. I thought that just ment "not sentiant"? Sentiance isn't necessary for life in all cases -- animals prove that.
And as is, the geth are still seperated programs. Until they can fully mesh together into a single intelligence, like EDI, or Legion at the end of the Rannoch War, you are saying they aren't worth anything?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Nope I disagree but it is still irrelevant to the larger debate.

You claimed Legion cut off contact before the Quarians voted against peace. That is wrong. Tali confirms they were still talking after the Quarians had already decided on war.

No, she directly contridicts this, saying that Legion's last message was about conflict in the consensis, and that she could have warned Legion about the invasion but did not. That clearly indicates that their last message was pre-invasion.

And Legion's own existance is proof that he doesn't need to be connected to the geth to be in the Veil. After all, he was able to stay in the Veil on the Normandy without needing to be connected to the geth after the Reapers took them over.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 20 juin 2013 - 10:35 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

No, she directly contridicts this, saying that Legion's last message was about conflict in the consensis, and that she could have warned Legion about the invasion but did not. That clearly indicates that their last message was pre-invasion.

She could only have warned him about an invasion after the Quarians agreed to invade.  Hence the conversation is after the Quarians already voted for war.  Otherwise, there were be nothing to warn him about if they had not voted yet.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And his word is that he doesn't see the geth as living beings -- which is no more incorrect then seeing them as living beings is. Nither definition is right except on a personal level -- he's no more wrong in seeing them as nothing but "thinking computers" then you are in seeing them as "living beings."

Nope game says they are alive.  Legion says they are alive.  Legion says he has a soul and Tali agrees.  Even when she stabs him and Shep puts three bullets in him, she agrees.  He is using headcanon.  I am using what the game tells me.  Thinking computers don't have souls.  Living beings do.

Nope -- Game says that's up for debate. You can affect how people see the geth -- you can affect Tali's view on what the geth are. Legion asks if they are alive -- he explisitly does not know. Tali answers his question with her own interpertation, wich Legion agrees with after his experences with Shepard and co. And again, last I chekced, she was talking about Legion, not the geth as a whole. Legion developed a "soul" of it's own from isolation, and experences in organic space. Legion is not an accurate representation of the geth themselves -- his choice to not join the Reapers is proof of this.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

No, she directly contridicts this, saying that Legion's last message was about conflict in the consensis, and that she could have warned Legion about the invasion but did not. That clearly indicates that their last message was pre-invasion.

She could only have warned him about an invasion after the Quarians agreed to invade.  Hence the conversation is after the Quarians already voted for war.  Otherwise, there were be nothing to warn him about if they had not voted yet.

And thus, this still means that the last contact she had was before the quarians ever set foot into the Perseus Veil. Also, I remind you that these messages are after the quarians turned down Tali and Legion's attempt to vote on negotiation.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But that is always up for debate, is it not? Enough programs link together, and you get a computer that can compute problems itself. Is that the same as life? That's the question repeatedly asked -- what is actual sentiance and does it equate the same as being "alive"?
By you're logic, the geth aren't alive when individual -- no more intelligent then a varren = not alive. I thought that just ment "not sentiant"? Sentiance isn't necessary for life in all cases -- animals prove that.
And as is, the geth are still seperated programs. Until they can fully mesh together into a single intelligence, like EDI, or Legion at the end of the Rannoch War, you are saying they aren't worth anything?

What do you mean compute problems itself?  A VI can already compute problems itself.

A mobile Geth platform has around 100 programs.  That is enough for it to be life.  One single program is just a VI but 100 programs is life.

And no once you understand that a group of Geth programs forms life then even thos individual programs have value.  Killing them is killing the building blocks of Geth life which an organic does not have a right to do.  Just like the Geth have no right to kill organic cells to prevent the creation of orgnanic life.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

And thus, this still means that the last contact she had was before the quarians ever set foot into the Perseus Veil. Also, I remind you that these messages are after the quarians turned down Tali and Legion's attempt to vote on negotiation.

Nope, Legion saying the Geth not being able to reach consensus was about allying with the Reapers after the Quarian attack.  I just don't care to debate that point anymore so I basically am agreeing to disagree on that.  

And in the below you claimed Legion cut contact before the quarians even voted on marching to war.  Now you agree it was after they voted to go to war.  Make up you mind Silver.  Story keeps changing.

silverexile17s wrote...

Also, Tali admitting that she could have warned Legion means that she could have sent Legion a message regardless of if he responded. Remember, him not responding didn't mean he wasn't receving the messages - at least, that's what Tali thought. Based on what Tali says, Legion cut contact well before the invasion was even launched. Her exact words were that Legion cut contact, and that she tried to reastablish contact, but stopped trying after the quarians decided to fight. Meaning that Legion severing contact was before the quarians even voted on marching to war. She said she stopped trying to contact Legion because that might tip him off about an invasion and betray her people. So she stopped trying when the quariands decided to go to war - months ago.

[Sir DeLoria]

Legion cut contact with Tali before the invasion.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

We have no evidence what they learned from the scan.  That is the point.  They could have learned the organics came in peace, they could have learned the organics did not come in peace, or they simply could have spotted the ship and destroyed it without bothering to try and listen in and figure out why they were there.  We simply do not know because no Geth ever mentions this. 

Oh, I thought you said Iowa.  Look, let me make this simple.  If the Quarians want to share Rannoch, I have no problem with that.  It is why I choose peace.  If the Quarians or anyone else wants the Geth to just give them Rannoch and leave the Perseus Veil then no that is bullsh*t.  If the Quarians wanted their homeworld for themselves they should have never created the Geth.  They did, they f**ked up and tough sh*t, they got to live with the consequences.

And you are incorrect.  If two people commit crimes, the law can judge one more guilty.  If two people commit murder then one can be guilty of 1st degree murder and the other guilty of manslaughter.   There are 3 main reasons the Quarians are more guilty.  First, they attacked first.  Second, they attacked a group that had done them no harm.  Third, they failed to teach the Geth about morals.  The Quarians are guilty for their crimes and they are partly guilty for the Geth’s crimes because they were the ones that created them and they failed in their responsibility to teach them anything other than to exterminate their enemy.  The Geth are guilty for their crimes and their crimes alone.  And yes it was prejudice.

And not sure you point, the Geth can die.  Period.  They are tough to kill but they can die.  They do not have enough mobile platforms and they do not have enough server hardware.  And there is no evidence they stopped making new programs and there is no evidence they did.  You and I are free to believe whatever we want on the subject so believe what you want Silver.

So what changed that the Quarians suddenly trust the Geth don’t want to kill them?  Shep told them before the Geth aren’t evil machines so it can’t be because Shep said so.  Sorry in both options they find out they can’t win.  There is no way they can kill all the Geth before the Geth return to full strength.  No f**king way.  So they give up not because they trust the Geth but because they can’t win anymore and so now all of a sudden they are willing to hope and have faith that the Geth will stand down.  They have no proof of this.  None.
Silver, can an unshackled AI live free in organic space or would they be subject to rules that organics are not subject to.  Yes or no?  I just want a simple answer. 

But again, you fail to bring up any proof that the geth could not have done so, when their capabilities indicate that failure to properly identify these ships is 0% There is no possible way that the geth could not determine the nature of these ships -- they were openly broadcasting their intentions, they had no military fleet guarding them, they made no effrot to hide their presance. Nothing to impeed the geth's abilaty to determine the nature of their ships. It's physically impossible for them to have made a mistake. They did diffinitively know what those ships intent was -- they just didn't give a damn. They are guilty of the same thing the quarians did to them, and thus, on the same level.
Which brings me back to my first question -- what was so difficult about politely saying "no thank yoyu, we want to be left alone" and just turning them back before they could ever cross the border?

But the geth have never given any indication that they want to share Rannoch, and via Legion's statements, don't even need the world to begin with -- hell, if Legion is to believed, they don't care where they live because they don't believe in the conept of a "homeworld" to begin with. The geth themselves have openly admitted that this is not bull at all -- they do not need Rannoch. If they saw Rannoch as a "homeworld" they would never have been building a megastructure in the first place. They would have built all the servers and solar collectors on the planet's surface instead.
And the geth effed up just as badly. They created a bad rep for themselves and didn't fix it. They responded overzelously to the quarian attack by slaughtering everyone -- including people that had nothing to do with what the quarian leaders decided. The geth are just as responcible for the Morning War as the quarians.

Not when both are guilty of the same exact sins. Then the terms are equal. Starting a conflict is balanced out by causing a higher death toll -- among civilians no less. Then attacking a neutral party that had nothing to do with the conflict makes you guilty of starting a feud with a race that did nothing to you -- same as how you were treated, making you guilty of the same crime. It's basically shooting the police officer when he comes to take your statement about being attacked.
There are three reasons that counter yours and make the geth just as guilty.
First, the geth didn't discriminate between civilian and slaughterted everyone for the actions of a few. Second, they attacked and butchered millions of men, woman, children, and elderly that also did nothing to them and held no grudge against them -- the same exact thing done to them. Third, the geth already learned about morals behind the quarians back, unknown to the quarians -- so that point is completely void.
Sorry, but again, the quarians and geth are the same. Two sides of the same coin. This wasn't any form of justice or repentance -- it was eye for an eye. Plain and simple. There is no "just" side. Just a "prefered" side.
And agan, no, it wasn't prejudice, as it was based off of established facts they knew about each-other. Not off a speculation from race.

Not after the Morning War. When Legion asks the signifigance of graveyards to organics, Shepard makes an explisit point of asking Legion why the geth would care about places like when "it sounds like geth don't die. You're memories live on." Legion states that programs are restored from archived copies, so that no geth ever really "dies" unless theprograms and all backups are deleted. Mental patterns are archived too.
Also, this is stated as being the case only after the Megastructure was attacked. Meaning they never expected it to come under threat.

Shepard telling them so -- after watching Shepard bust his/her ass saving them from the dreadnought, the effort to rescue Koris, disable the geth ships attacking the liveships and thus save the majority of the Civilian Fleet from starvation and death, and offering tactial advice to the quarians from the War Room (radio conversations between Gerrel & Raan, and Xen & Tali respectively), and just now killed the Reaper controlling the geth by risking himself/herself in a ground battle with the thing single handedly for their sake. Shepard has at that point finally earned trust with the Admirals, with the likely exception of Xen (dodging Reaper-beams on you're behalf, with no other reason besides to try and hele save your asses, tends to make you trust someone more. Especally when said person can just as easily walk out and leave you to fight on you're own.)
Sorry, that has nothing to do with the choice. I never saw anyone stand down against the Reapers, even though they knew full well they couldn't win. Explain that. The quarians believe they are in the same situation against the geth as the rest of the galaxy is against the Reapers. If no one fighting the Reapers up and surrendered, why would the quarians? Sorry, but AGAIN, it has absolutly nothing to do with the choice to stand down -- they only did so when they learned it was their own actions that were causing the geth to shoot back in retaliation.
And also, I'm pretty sure Hackett was thinking the same thing about Sovergien, but he did it anyway.

Yes. There are Alliance Infiltrator Units in the allies MP forces in multiplayer -- which are explisitly listed ad being unshackeled A.I.s. Which they all are trusting with their lives. And the geth can peacefully intigrate with the organic forces, even though it's a synthetic race attacking everyone. That answer your question?
And again, the reason that shackling A.I.'s became standard procedure is because of the harsh actions the geth took against their peace envoys. And again, there is no law stating every unshackeld A.I. must be destroyed. The law states that all unshacked must be shackled and monitored -- again, something that wasn't enforced so harshly until the geth. An A.I. is not instantly destroyed for being an A.I.
An A.I. with Reaper-Tech on the other hand....

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But that is always up for debate, is it not? Enough programs link together, and you get a computer that can compute problems itself. Is that the same as life? That's the question repeatedly asked -- what is actual sentiance and does it equate the same as being "alive"?
By you're logic, the geth aren't alive when individual -- no more intelligent then a varren = not alive. I thought that just ment "not sentiant"? Sentiance isn't necessary for life in all cases -- animals prove that.
And as is, the geth are still seperated programs. Until they can fully mesh together into a single intelligence, like EDI, or Legion at the end of the Rannoch War, you are saying they aren't worth anything?

What do you mean compute problems itself?  A VI can already compute problems itself.

A mobile Geth platform has around 100 programs.  That is enough for it to be life.  One single program is just a VI but 100 programs is life.

And no once you understand that a group of Geth programs forms life then even thos individual programs have value.  Killing them is killing the building blocks of Geth life which an organic does not have a right to do.  Just like the Geth have no right to kill organic cells to prevent the creation of orgnanic life.

But is a V.I. alive? Or just a more advanced computer? Now you are sounding like Xen, saying that base V.I.s are nothing but tools.

I mean alone. The individual programs -- one of the 100. Do they on their own constitute life, since they are a component of a living being? Because it sounds like you consider them all worthless without being networked.

But again, it;s up for debate weather or not this is a "thinking computer" of a living being -- the entire point of the game is to determine you're own interpertation of that. The game does not tell you the "truth" -- only what the characters' personal conclusions are. You are supposed to draw you're own conclusions yourself.