1071 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Because nothing you said refuted what I posted.

And again, you DO realize that the general quarian public -- the people responcible for the war vote -- were unaware of the proposal Legion and Tali made, right? That statement never made it past the closed doors of the Amdiralty Board's private dissussions. The quarian public itself never knew one way or the other.
So let the record show you misinterperted again. The quarian populance -- the one's responcible for casting the majority vote to war -- were never aware of what Legion and Talu tried behind closed doors.

Whether that is true or not it would be the Quarians fault.

How? How the hell would that be the quarians fault that the geth failed to make any claim to wanting peace? If there had been a movement that had the full public support of the geth, it would have been known. The reason it was discredited was because there was only ONE geth backing it - Legion. Not the quarians fault that the geth weren't willing to try for peace either.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...
AGAIN, didn't answer the question -- what did the geth do to show they wanted to share. And an earlier question you also dodged -- what does Rannoch have that the geth can't find anywere else? All we've done is find things the quarians can't find anywhere else.

The geth, being an illegal faction, have zero right to Rannoch -- no more right then the Reapers do to Earth, or any of the worlds they conquered.
Again - illegal war = illegal claim = zero right to land.

I just told you neither side has done anything to show they wanted to share.  That does not change my position.  Whether either side wants to share does not matter.  My position is they both need to share Rannoch or one side needs to agree to give it up.  The Geth have a right to the home they posess.  Whether they want to give up that right is their choice.  The Council has no authority over them because they never agreed to follow Council laws.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And again, the galaxy seems to accept the geth pretty damn openly after the Rannoch War ends.

This proves once again that The Catalyst = "Stupid Machine!" It does its masters' bidding. Synthesis. Now everyone can pay tribute.

The Geth are primitive AI.  The Catalyst fears AI that haven't been created yet because the Reapers have harvested before they can be created.  So the Geth prove nothing.  

So now the're primitive? Jeez, you have a major double standard when it comes to geth.
And again, doesn't matter. The geth are still A.I. aren't they? It still fits the Catalyst's bill -- the Reaper on Rannoch personally validates this with it's own words.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

How? How the hell would that be the quarians fault that the geth failed to make any claim to wanting peace? If there had been a movement that had the full public support of the geth, it would have been known. The reason it was discredited was because there was only ONE geth backing it - Legion. Not the quarians fault that the geth weren't willing to try for peace either.

The Admiralty Board is made up of Quarians.  If they refuses to share information then that is on them.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
AGAIN, didn't answer the question -- what did the geth do to show they wanted to share. And an earlier question you also dodged -- what does Rannoch have that the geth can't find anywere else? All we've done is find things the quarians can't find anywhere else.

The geth, being an illegal faction, have zero right to Rannoch -- no more right then the Reapers do to Earth, or any of the worlds they conquered.
Again - illegal war = illegal claim = zero right to land.

I just told you neither side has done anything to show they wanted to share.  That does not change my position.  Whether either side wants to share does not matter.  My position is they both need to share Rannoch or one side needs to agree to give it up.  The Geth have a right to the home they posess.  Whether they want to give up that right is their choice.  The Council has no authority over them because they never agreed to follow Council laws.

Yes it does, because you keep trying to say that the burden of proof is soley on the organics. It is explisitly not so. If one side makes no attempt to make an effort to share, then it affects the other's choice, so it explisitly does matter.  And NO -- the simple truth is that the geth do not need Rannoch because, as demonstrated by the Heretic Station, and by the Megastructure, they do not need a planat to live on.  The geth esplisitly do not see Rannoch as their home. Legion even states personally that Rannoch is not the geth's home. It is a memorial site to them -- a home is the absolute last thing they will EVER see Rannoch as. And since the quarians were a Citadel Race, the Perseus Veil falls under their legal juristiction. So yes, the geth ARE subject to their laws.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

So now the're primitive? Jeez, you have a major double standard when it comes to geth.
And again, doesn't matter. The geth are still A.I. aren't they? It still fits the Catalyst's bill -- the Reaper on Rannoch personally validates this with it's own words.

The Geth are primitive because the organics that created them are primitive.  They are advanced organic life but they are advanced no further than 50k years.  If they were allowed to survive to say 100k years then the AI they created would be more advanced as well.

So no the Catalyst cares very little about the Geth.  If they did, the Reapers would have harvested long before the Geth could be created.

Modifié par remydat, 21 juin 2013 - 12:41 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

How? How the hell would that be the quarians fault that the geth failed to make any claim to wanting peace? If there had been a movement that had the full public support of the geth, it would have been known. The reason it was discredited was because there was only ONE geth backing it - Legion. Not the quarians fault that the geth weren't willing to try for peace either.

The Admiralty Board is made up of Quarians.  If they refuses to share information then that is on them.

And if the geth refuse to make any effort to try for peace and coexistance, that is likewise on them. See where I'm going with this "equal fault" statement?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

So now the're primitive? Jeez, you have a major double standard when it comes to geth.
And again, doesn't matter. The geth are still A.I. aren't they? It still fits the Catalyst's bill -- the Reaper on Rannoch personally validates this with it's own words.

The Geth are primitive because the organics that created them are primitive.  They are advanced organic life but they are advanced no further than 50k years.  If they were allowed to survive to say 100k years then the AI they created would be more advanced as well.

So no the Catalyst cares very little about the Geth.  If they did, the Reapers would have harvested long before the Geth could be created.

They weren't primitive. The geth were spicifically created to not be intelligent. That's no more "primitive" then making a hammer to pound nails.
If if that's you're take on it, then how the hell do you blame the quarians for thinking the geth would act like primitives and rise up against them?
And again, this comes down to a double-standard of trying to pin the geth's faults on the quarians.

Also, if that was true, the Catalyst would not have tried to recurt the geth the same as he recruted the Zha'till, now would he? After all, the Reapers have used the geth the most in the games.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes it does, because you keep trying to say that the burden of proof is soley on the organics. It is explisitly not so. If one side makes no attempt to make an effort to share, then it affects the other's choice, so it explisitly does matter.  And NO -- the simple truth is that the geth do not need Rannoch because, as demonstrated by the Heretic Station, and by the Megastructure, they do not need a planat to live on.  The geth esplisitly do not see Rannoch as their home. Legion even states personally that Rannoch is not the geth's home. It is a memorial site to them -- a home is the absolute last thing they will EVER see Rannoch as. And since the quarians were a Citadel Race, the Perseus Veil falls under their legal juristiction. So yes, the geth ARE subject to their laws.

When the Geth choose to give the Quarians Rannoch, the Quarians can have it.  Otherwise they share.  There is nothing more to it.

And no the Geth are not a Council Race.  They have no obligation to listen to the Council. 

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...
They weren't primitive. The geth were spicifically created to not be intelligent. That's no more "primitive" then making a hammer to pound nails.
If if that's you're take on it, then how the hell do you blame the quarians for thinking the geth would act like primitives and rise up against them?
And again, this comes down to a double-standard of trying to pin the geth's faults on the quarians.

Also, if that was true, the Catalyst would not have tried to recurt the geth the same as he recruted the Zha'till, now would he? After all, the Reapers have used the geth the most in the games.

Silver, the Reapers are designed to harvest before an advanced AI capable of destroying all organic life is created.  Thus, they come and harvest BEFORE such an AI race can be created.  The Geth are not that race.  It would be stupid for the Reapers to try and harvest AFTER such a race was created so the Geth simply cannot be that race.

Modifié par remydat, 21 juin 2013 - 12:48 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes it does, because you keep trying to say that the burden of proof is soley on the organics. It is explisitly not so. If one side makes no attempt to make an effort to share, then it affects the other's choice, so it explisitly does matter.  And NO -- the simple truth is that the geth do not need Rannoch because, as demonstrated by the Heretic Station, and by the Megastructure, they do not need a planat to live on.  The geth esplisitly do not see Rannoch as their home. Legion even states personally that Rannoch is not the geth's home. It is a memorial site to them -- a home is the absolute last thing they will EVER see Rannoch as. And since the quarians were a Citadel Race, the Perseus Veil falls under their legal juristiction. So yes, the geth ARE subject to their laws.

When the Geth choose to give the Quarians Rannoch, the Quarians can have it.  Otherwise they share.  There is nothing more to it.

And no the Geth are not a Council Race.  They have no obligation to listen to the Council. 

But the geth don't need, or even USE Rannoch. They get all their resources from asteroids, and are building a megastructure around Tikkun. They don't need Rannoch period. Legion himself states this. And the geth already do not have any intent of letting the quarians back into the veil. If they did, they wouldn't build that megastructure in the first place. So, both times you are disproven by the existance of the megatsructure.

And the geth exist in the Veil, which does legally belong to a Citadel race. The quarians. Meaning they have legal athourity in the Veil. The Council ignored them by choice, not by policy.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
They weren't primitive. The geth were spicifically created to not be intelligent. That's no more "primitive" then making a hammer to pound nails.
If if that's you're take on it, then how the hell do you blame the quarians for thinking the geth would act like primitives and rise up against them?
And again, this comes down to a double-standard of trying to pin the geth's faults on the quarians.

Also, if that was true, the Catalyst would not have tried to recurt the geth the same as he recruted the Zha'till, now would he? After all, the Reapers have used the geth the most in the games.

Silver, the Reapers are designed to harvest before an advanced AI capable of destroying all organic life is created.  Thus, they come and harvest BEFORE such an AI race can be created.  The Geth are not that race.  It would be stupid for the Reapers to try and harvest AFTER such a race was created so the Geth simply cannot be that race.

And again, you are basically saying the geth aren't such and thus, not on the same level as high-functioning organics?
Either make up you're mind, or drop the double-standards.
Also, FYI, no synthetic race the Reapers enounctered was spared. Remember?
The geth are A.I. Doesn't matter how advanced they are -- they are still A.I. The Reapers themselves acknowledge them as such. The geth vs quarians war is according to the Reapers the thing they are trying to prevent on a galactic scale. The geth are explisitly what they're example is.

I'm done for now. Come back in three hours.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 juin 2013 - 01:03 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
They weren't primitive. The geth were spicifically created to not be intelligent. That's no more "primitive" then making a hammer to pound nails.
If if that's you're take on it, then how the hell do you blame the quarians for thinking the geth would act like primitives and rise up against them?
And again, this comes down to a double-standard of trying to pin the geth's faults on the quarians.

Also, if that was true, the Catalyst would not have tried to recurt the geth the same as he recruted the Zha'till, now would he? After all, the Reapers have used the geth the most in the games.

Silver, the Reapers are designed to harvest before an advanced AI capable of destroying all organic life is created.  Thus, they come and harvest BEFORE such an AI race can be created.  The Geth are not that race.  It would be stupid for the Reapers to try and harvest AFTER such a race was created so the Geth simply cannot be that race.

The reapers were created by the "Leviathan Intelligence" to make sure a race didn't create a synthetic that rivaled or exceeded the "Leviathan Intelligence" could be created. If one were to be created the Leviathans would no longer receive tribute. That is why the "Leviathan Intelligence" was charged with "preserving" organic life at all costs. So it came to the conclusion that the Leviathans' demand for tribute was part of the problem that was causing organics to try to produce these things. And now we have marmalade theory, but is it good on toast? Then it started using the galaxy as an experiment to speed up evolution, and it's a stupid endless loop.

It creates synthetics to come along and kill us so that we don't make a race of synthetics that kill us. It is not something we can comprehend. It is a stupid machine made by stupid Darwin Award Winners.

Sovereign was sure trying to stir up things in that direction though with the rachni. "Hmm... they've got some modest AIs now... If I stir this hornet's nest here and get these creatures running loose all over the galaxy they'll have to make something big. Then maybe doofus in the Citadel will wake the f*** up and open the relay?"....... later..... "Crap! They used organics to deal with it! Wait! The Krogan are rebelling. Good. Good. Now maybe they'll do it." ...... later......"Crap! They used a biological approach!" . But Sovereign's patient... "Wait! What's this? Geth? Hmmm.... now if I can only find a patsy.... Saren! Let's kick some organic ass!"

But you guys are still trying to lay the blame on the geth or the Quarians. I say we build a time machine, go back in time to when the Geth were being invented, kill all of the scientists involved, burn all of the research, and return to our present day. We're on earth so it doesn't affect us.

[hpjay]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Because nothing you said refuted what I posted.

And again, you DO realize that the general quarian public -- the people responcible for the war vote -- were unaware of the proposal Legion and Tali made, right? That statement never made it past the closed doors of the Amdiralty Board's private dissussions. The quarian public itself never knew one way or the other.
So let the record show you misinterperted again. The quarian populance -- the one's responcible for casting the majority vote to war -- were never aware of what Legion and Talu tried behind closed doors.

Whether that is true or not it would be the Quarians fault.

How? How the hell would that be the quarians fault that the geth failed to make any claim to wanting peace? If there had been a movement that had the full public support of the geth, it would have been known. The reason it was discredited was because there was only ONE geth backing it - Legion. Not the quarians fault that the geth weren't willing to try for peace either.

 

There in no ONE geth.  There is no individual.  There is only Geth.  We are Geth.



Starts at 2:57

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

One Geth platform.

[hpjay]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

One Geth platform.

.

Geth are networked and communicate thoughts and ideas at the speed of light.  We are Geth.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But the geth don't need, or even USE Rannoch. They get all their resources from asteroids, and are building a megastructure around Tikkun. They don't need Rannoch period. Legion himself states this. And the geth already do not have any intent of letting the quarians back into the veil. If they did, they wouldn't build that megastructure in the first place. So, both times you are disproven by the existance of the megatsructure.

And the geth exist in the Veil, which does legally belong to a Citadel race. The quarians. Meaning they have legal athourity in the Veil. The Council ignored them by choice, not by policy.

The Geth have bases and servers on Rannoch as proven in ME3.  And all the megastructure proves is that the Geth had no intention of leaving the Persesus Veil.  Once again, they can share it.  It doesn't matter if anyone thinks they have no need for it.  It is theirs until they decide they want to give it back.

And no it doesn't belong to a Citadel race.  For 300 years, the Council instructued organics to stay out of the PV.  They have no jurisdiction there period.

[Sir DeLoria]

The Perseus Veil is off limits because those crazy Geth will kill literally anything that comes too close.

[naes1984]

Because the plot requires it.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

And again, you are basically saying the geth aren't such and thus, not on the same level as high-functioning organics?
Either make up you're mind, or drop the double-standards.
Also, FYI, no synthetic race the Reapers enounctered was spared. Remember?
The geth are A.I. Doesn't matter how advanced they are -- they are still A.I. The Reapers themselves acknowledge them as such. The geth vs quarians war is according to the Reapers the thing they are trying to prevent on a galactic scale. The geth are explisitly what they're example is.

I'm done for now. Come back in three hours.

No the Geth are on the same level of organics.  Any synthetic that is created is basically a reflection of the the level of technology at the time of their creation.  Thus, the Geth are based on 50k year old tech because that is how old organics are.

The whole point of coming every 50k years is so the tech does not become so advanced that the synthetic created after 70k or 100k is too advanced that no organic can defend themselves against them.  We have not seen such an AI because the galaxy is harvested before it could occur.

The Geth are on the same level as the organics that created them.  It's just that the organics that created them are not that advanced because they have 50k years worth of knowledge instead of 100k.

[remydat]

Necanor wrote...

The Perseus Veil is off limits because those crazy Geth will kill literally anything that comes too close.

Which means it is not Council space.  

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The reapers were created by the "Leviathan Intelligence" to make sure a race didn't create a synthetic that rivaled or exceeded the "Leviathan Intelligence" could be created. If one were to be created the Leviathans would no longer receive tribute. That is why the "Leviathan Intelligence" was charged with "preserving" organic life at all costs. So it came to the conclusion that the Leviathans' demand for tribute was part of the problem that was causing organics to try to produce these things. And now we have marmalade theory, but is it good on toast? Then it started using the galaxy as an experiment to speed up evolution, and it's a stupid endless loop.

It creates synthetics to come along and kill us so that we don't make a race of synthetics that kill us. It is not something we can comprehend. It is a stupid machine made by stupid Darwin Award Winners.

Sovereign was sure trying to stir up things in that direction though with the rachni. "Hmm... they've got some modest AIs now... If I stir this hornet's nest here and get these creatures running loose all over the galaxy they'll have to make something big. Then maybe doofus in the Citadel will wake the f*** up and open the relay?"....... later..... "Crap! They used organics to deal with it! Wait! The Krogan are rebelling. Good. Good. Now maybe they'll do it." ...... later......"Crap! They used a biological approach!" . But Sovereign's patient... "Wait! What's this? Geth? Hmmm.... now if I can only find a patsy.... Saren! Let's kick some organic ass!"

But you guys are still trying to lay the blame on the geth or the Quarians. I say we build a time machine, go back in time to when the Geth were being invented, kill all of the scientists involved, burn all of the research, and return to our present day. We're on earth so it doesn't affect us.

The bold is ironic.  That is exactly what the Reapers do every 50k years, LOL.  They come and kill all the scientists (advanced organic life) and burn all the research by resetting organic development back to zero.  The only difference is they don't need a time machine because they have calculated that as long as they do this every 50k years, no Super AI will be created.  You are a Reaper Shotgun.  Wlecome!

[Soldier096]

hpjay wrote...


There in no ONE geth.  There is no individual.  There is only Geth.  We are Geth.



Starts at 2:57

It's funny how a few days ago Remydat  was arguing that the Geth were individual beings to support his Geth argument.

Modifié par Soldier096, 22 juin 2013 - 05:34 .

[remydat]

The Geth unit in the vid is a collection of 1183 programs. That collection of programs experiences the world in a completely different manner than the rest of the Geth and in so doing form the individual known as Legion. If all other Geth programs were destroyed that collection of 1183 programs would still exist and could still function independent of the rest of the Geth.

Bioware is an individual corporation.  That coporation is made up of hundreds or thousands of employees.  Does the fact it is made up of several employees change the fact that it is an individual corporation?  Not really a hard concept to grasp.

When Legion talks he is essentially talking on behalf of those 1183 programs which is why he refers to them all as "we" 

Modifié par remydat, 22 juin 2013 - 05:51 .

[silverexile17s]

hpjay wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Because nothing you said refuted what I posted.

And again, you DO realize that the general quarian public -- the people responcible for the war vote -- were unaware of the proposal Legion and Tali made, right? That statement never made it past the closed doors of the Amdiralty Board's private dissussions. The quarian public itself never knew one way or the other.
So let the record show you misinterperted again. The quarian populance -- the one's responcible for casting the majority vote to war -- were never aware of what Legion and Talu tried behind closed doors.

Whether that is true or not it would be the Quarians fault.

How? How the hell would that be the quarians fault that the geth failed to make any claim to wanting peace? If there had been a movement that had the full public support of the geth, it would have been known. The reason it was discredited was because there was only ONE geth backing it - Legion. Not the quarians fault that the geth weren't willing to try for peace either.

 

There in no ONE geth.  There is no individual.  There is only Geth.  We are Geth.



Starts at 2:57

Legion is one geth in terms of his existance. He is a singe platform. One geth platform -- which doesn't even represent his race. That's notr an encouraging standpoint to try and argue for peace from.