1071 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But the geth don't need, or even USE Rannoch. They get all their resources from asteroids, and are building a megastructure around Tikkun. They don't need Rannoch period. Legion himself states this. And the geth already do not have any intent of letting the quarians back into the veil. If they did, they wouldn't build that megastructure in the first place. So, both times you are disproven by the existance of the megatsructure.

And the geth exist in the Veil, which does legally belong to a Citadel race. The quarians. Meaning they have legal athourity in the Veil. The Council ignored them by choice, not by policy.

The Geth have bases and servers on Rannoch as proven in ME3.  And all the megastructure proves is that the Geth had no intention of leaving the Persesus Veil.  Once again, they can share it.  It doesn't matter if anyone thinks they have no need for it.  It is theirs until they decide they want to give it back.

And no it doesn't belong to a Citadel race.  For 300 years, the Council instructued organics to stay out of the PV.  They have no jurisdiction there period.

And that proves WHAT exactally?
Tha the geth NEVER intended to return Rannoch. Also, you are ONCE AGAIN confussed -- Last I checked, servers and military based didn't equal "resource collection sites." Sorry, pal -- Rannoch ISN'T a resource point. NONE of the quarian worlds are, as stated by Legion himslef. So, AGAIN, the geth have no use of the quarian worlds.  Strike One.

And the Megastructure could have been build in one of the DOZENS of other systems the geth scouted in the Perseus Veil -- it's not JUST the Tikkun system. And the geth didn't start to build it till 60+ years after they drove the quarians out. Sorry, but building the megastructure EXPLISITLY means never intending to return Rannoch.
Strike Two.

AGAIN, completely wrong. If that had been the case, they would have ACTIVELY OFFERED TO DO SO THROUGH LEGION. Instead, they chained Legion up. They were no more intrested in sharing then the quarians were. It's NOT their world, they themselves say so. As long as the quarians live, they have ancestoral right to their land -- even the geth agree to that. Since the geth themselves already consent that the land is NOT their property and is quarian property, you're entire point is completely and utterly moot.
Strike Three.

"Citadel Race" is the term for EVERY race that has an embasy on the Citadel. AGAIN, you are confussed -- you have mistaken "Citadel Council Race" for "Citadel Race." A council race is a race that is actively part of the Council. A Citadel race is ANY race that possesses an embassy on the Citadel. That inculded the quaians and batarians at one point. Any race that has an embassy on the Citadel is subject to their laws and judgement - This is stated verbatium by Captain Anderson in ME1.
And since the Council is the one that sentanced the quarians, it means that they possess the right to revoke that judgement at any time. Therefore, they DO have EVERY SINGLE RIGHT TO THE PERSEUS VEIL.
PERIOD.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And again, you are basically saying the geth aren't such and thus, not on the same level as high-functioning organics?
Either make up you're mind, or drop the double-standards.
Also, FYI, no synthetic race the Reapers enounctered was spared. Remember?
The geth are A.I. Doesn't matter how advanced they are -- they are still A.I. The Reapers themselves acknowledge them as such. The geth vs quarians war is according to the Reapers the thing they are trying to prevent on a galactic scale. The geth are explisitly what they're example is.

I'm done for now. Come back in three hours.

No the Geth are on the same level of organics.  Any synthetic that is created is basically a reflection of the the level of technology at the time of their creation.  Thus, the Geth are based on 50k year old tech because that is how old organics are.

The whole point of coming every 50k years is so the tech does not become so advanced that the synthetic created after 70k or 100k is too advanced that no organic can defend themselves against them.  We have not seen such an AI because the galaxy is harvested before it could occur.

The Geth are on the same level as the organics that created them.  It's just that the organics that created them are not that advanced because they have 50k years worth of knowledge instead of 100k.

Then YOU YOURSELF are calling them an inferior race. So if people call them monsters, you jump at them, but YOU can call them inferior to organics? That's the most arrogant double standard I've ever seen. You have completely and utterly countered yourself and your own arguement by arguing that organics ARE superior to synthetics. The geth ARE A.I. - they meet all the classifications. They are intelligent, and cappible of free thought, speach, and will. Being a symbioticly-dependant race is NOT a factor that makes them "inferiour." It didn't make the Rachni inferiour. Nor the asari, who rely on symbiosis with other races to reproduce and are culturally dependant on that ideal. Or the quarians, who have a symbiosis with the flora and fauna of Rannoch.

And yet, the REAPERS THEMSELVES say Rannoch is an example of what they strive to prevent on a galactic scale. ONCE AGAIN, your entire argument is completely and utterly moot, because the side you argue for -- they have ALREADY OPENLY CONSENTED TO THE BELIEF OPPOSATE OF YOURS. They PERSONALLY stated the geth were A.I.s. Even the Catalyst himself said the geth were advanced synthetic life.


WRONG. The quarians were more advanced then US. They had a sociaty of machinists -- they developed a remarkably adaptive computer system that eventually became the geth. They fully automated their socity -- a feat that us humans have been striving to do for decades now. They did it in half the time.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

The Geth unit in the vid is a collection of 1183 programs. That collection of programs experiences the world in a completely different manner than the rest of the Geth and in so doing form the individual known as Legion. If all other Geth programs were destroyed that collection of 1183 programs would still exist and could still function independent of the rest of the Geth.

Bioware is an individual corporation.  That coporation is made up of hundreds or thousands of employees.  Does the fact it is made up of several employees change the fact that it is an individual corporation?  Not really a hard concept to grasp.

When Legion talks he is essentially talking on behalf of those 1183 programs which is why he refers to them all as "we" 

And those are not representitive of the billions upon billions of other programs in the galaxy.
P.S. - Legion says he is a SINGLE gestault personalaty. Basically, he IS one person - he simply has a "fractured" mind.

[Interloper]

Geth are just lazy aggressive bastards who for some reason either end up as violent fanatics such as Sovereign's followers or feel the need to claim the Quarian's planet when really, they don't require any resources whatsoever.

I get the feeling that everyone who is super butthurt by the idea that the Quarians should be allowed to survive, not the Geth will be the same people who in the next 50 years will be arguing that our desktop computers deserve 'dignity' and 'respect' and to be treated equally with organic beings.

[HellbirdIV]

The geth would have left Rannoch if the quarians had just asked. But they didn't, they just derped in and started shooting, so the geth did the galaxy a favour and got rid of them.

Tali knew Legion wanted peace. She was on the Admiralty board. She could have made the necessary arrangements. But she's too weak - and too obsessed with revenge.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 18 juillet 2013 - 05:35 .

[DeinonSlayer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The geth would have left Rannoch if the quarians had just asked. But they didn't, they just derped in and started shooting, so the geth did the galaxy a favour and got rid of them.

And with that display, I know I never have to take you seriously ever again. It's... liberating.

Also,



Seriously, silver. 25-day-old thread. Let the dead rest.

[HellbirdIV]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

The geth would have left Rannoch if the quarians had just asked. But they didn't, they just derped in and started shooting, so the geth did the galaxy a favour and got rid of them.

And with that display, I know I never have to take you seriously ever again.

Why, because I acknowledge things that were actually stated in the game?

*sigh* Talimancers...

[Soldier096]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The geth would have left Rannoch if the quarians had just asked. But they didn't, they just derped in and started shooting, so the geth did the galaxy a favour and got rid of them.

Tali knew Legion wanted peace. She was on the Admiralty board. She could have made the necessary arrangements. But she's too weak - and too obsessed with revenge.

So much stupidity. The Geth attacked anyone that came near the Persus Veil for 300yrs. Every single council ambassador that was sent to them was killed. The only unit that came into peaceful contact with organics was Legion but he cut off communications with Tali. Your just statement is just your pitiful assumption that did does not acknowledge in-game facts. 

Modifié par Soldier096, 18 juillet 2013 - 06:31 .

[DeinonSlayer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

The geth would have left Rannoch if the quarians had just asked. But they didn't, they just derped in and started shooting, so the geth did the galaxy a favour and got rid of them.

And with that display, I know I never have to take you seriously ever again.

Why, because I acknowledge things that were actually stated in the game?

*sigh* Talimancers...

What was in the game:

Geth spent three centuries killing anyone who approached them, including emissaries, ignoring all attempts by organics to communicate with them. The first and only break in this silence (aside from a Heretic invasion) is Legion. A couple of messages get passed between Tali and Legion, until Legion one day stops responding (this is still before the invasion, mind you). Diplomacy is no longer an open avenue because the Geth have left the table. They were never going to hand Rannoch back for the asking - see Legion at Tali's trial in ME2. Long story short, neither side had reason to trust the other to the point of staking their species' survival on the others' good will.

Reapers invade galaxy. With no alternatives, the Quarians invade Geth space. With no alternatives, the Geth turn to the Reapers.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 18 juillet 2013 - 06:10 .

[Anubis722]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

The geth would have left Rannoch if the quarians had just asked. But they didn't, they just derped in and started shooting, so the geth did the galaxy a favour and got rid of them.

And with that display, I know I never have to take you seriously ever again.

Why, because I acknowledge things that were actually stated in the game?

*sigh* Talimancers...

What was in the game:

Geth spent three centuries killing anyone who approached them, including emissaries, ignoring all attempts by organics to communicate with them. The first and only break in this silence is Legion. A couple of messages get passed between Tali and Legion, until Legion one day stops responding (this is still before the invasion, mind you). Diplomacy is no longer an open avenue because the Geth have left the table. They were never going to hand Rannoch back for the asking - see Legion at Tali's trial in ME2. Long story short, neither side had reason to trust the other to the point of staking their species' survival on the others' good will.

Reapers invade galaxy. With no alternatives, the Quarians invade Geth space. With no alternatives, the Geth turn to the Reapers.

Could'nt had said it better myself 

[HellbirdIV]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

A couple of messages get passed between Tali and Legion, until Legion one day stops responding (this is still before the invasion, mind you). Diplomacy is no longer an open avenue because the Geth have left the table. They were never going to hand Rannoch back for the asking - see Legion at Tali's trial in ME2. Long story short, neither side had reason to trust the other to the point of staking their species' survival on the others' good will.

And that's obviously why the geth built an offworld superstructure hub for all of their processes instead of using their existing network on Rannoch..?

What exactly were the geth hoping to accomplish, beyond keeping the quarians from breaking their stuff?

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Reapers invade galaxy. With no alternatives, the Quarians invade Geth space.

Here's an idea: Don't fight in a burning house.

EDIT:

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They were never going to hand Rannoch back for the asking - see Legion at Tali's trial in ME2.

Legion: "We did not seek hostilities with Creators. We fought for continued existence."

Admiral Koris: "So your people would be open to peace?"

Legion: "Not without additional data that suggests coexistence is possible or desirable for Creators. When the Creators have believed victory is possible, they have attacked us 100 percent of the time."

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 18 juillet 2013 - 06:38 .

[DeinonSlayer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

A couple of messages get passed between Tali and Legion, until Legion one day stops responding (this is still before the invasion, mind you). Diplomacy is no longer an open avenue because the Geth have left the table. They were never going to hand Rannoch back for the asking - see Legion at Tali's trial in ME2. Long story short, neither side had reason to trust the other to the point of staking their species' survival on the others' good will.

And that's obviously why the geth built an offworld superstructure hub for all of their processes instead of using their existing network on Rannoch..?

Right. Because out of all the star systems the Geth owned, wrapping the star that keeps Rannoch alive in a dyson bubble (permanently immobilizing themselves and doing untold damage to the planet their creators are physiologically dependent on) was SO much better...

The original question of this thread is why the Geth don't simply leave. The Geth's position in the galaxy, alone and without allies, is a direct consequence of three centuries of murderous isolationism.

What exactly were the geth hoping to accomplish, beyond keeping the quarians from breaking their stuff?

That's the question of the day.

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Reapers invade galaxy. With no alternatives, the Quarians invade Geth space.

Here's an idea: Don't fight in a burning house.

When your cargo hold is home to six hundred civilians in metal cubicles and you have to stay in shuttle range of a Liveship to be fed on a daily basis, your ship is not available to tote cargo, troops and refugees. You cannot aid the galactic war effort - all youvan do is drift and hope you aren't found (this is the alternative to war Koris proposes at the start of the Rannoch campaign - he has no alternative). Either they find a place to offload those civilians and join the wider war effort, or they drift until the Reapers find them and kill them.

By the way, six hundred civilians crammed in a ship designed for a crew of fifty means there aren't enough escape pods to save them if you come under attack; not even close.

When the alternative was to die in space at the hands of the Reapers, the Quarians chose life. When the alternative was to die at the hands of the Quarians, the Geth chose life. Both sides share responsibility for this war.

[DeinonSlayer]

HellbirdIV wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They were never going to hand Rannoch back for the asking - see Legion at Tali's trial in ME2.

Legion: "We did not seek hostilities with Creators. We fought for continued existence."

Admiral Koris: "So your people would be open to peace?"

Legion: "Not without additional data that suggests coexistence is possible or desirable for Creators. When the Creators have believed victory is possible, they have attacked us 100 percent of the time."

Exactly. The first word in response to "are you open to peace" was a negative.

Evidently, multiple Quarian generations spent not attacking the Geth wasn't sufficient proof. For all we know, that "100%" figure is exclusively from the Morning War - the DoD thought they could beat Skynet that one time.

How the Geth expected their creators to prove this when the Geth themselves allowed no contact to be made remains unclear.

*sigh* I need to get some damned sleep...

[Ledgend1221]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
And that's obviously why the geth built an offworld superstructure hub for all of their processes instead of using their existing network on Rannoch..? Right. Because out of all the star systems the Geth owned, wrapping the star that keeps Rannoch alive in a dyson bubble (permanently immobilizing themselves and doing untold damage to the planet their creators are physiologically dependent on) was SO much better...

What?
They're not building a dyson sphere.
They're building an offworld superstructre into which they can upload the entire consensus.

[HellbirdIV]

Some dialogue I've mentioned before from Kal'Reegar implies that the quarians attack geth frequently enough to repeatedly face Armature-class platforms, which did not exist during the Morning War and which aren't used on board space stations and starships. This means the quarians must have attacked geth territory, otherwise the quarian marines wouldn't have a "standard procedure" for fighting them.

Also, the geth construct is a Dyson Sphere, not a Dyson Shell. A Dyson Sphere is a network of platforms, it does not "wrap" the star. A Dyson Shell is the one that completley envelops a star.

As an aside, did we ever get an explanation for why the quarians don't just settle on a planet that has a crappy atmosphere? They already spend their entire lives inside their suits, even on the Flotilla 'clean ships' are the exception rather than the rule. Sure, they want to be able to live without their suits, but isn't an entire planet just better than a cramped fleet while you figure out a new solution?

[DeinonSlayer]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
And that's obviously why the geth built an offworld superstructure hub for all of their processes instead of using their existing network on Rannoch..? Right. Because out of all the star systems the Geth owned, wrapping the star that keeps Rannoch alive in a dyson bubble (permanently immobilizing themselves and doing untold damage to the planet their creators are physiologically dependent on) was SO much better...

What?
They're not building a dyson sphere.
They're building an offworld superstructre into which they can upload the entire consensus.

Their superstructure was a Dyson bubble built around Rannoch's sun - it's on the galaxy map.

It was only ~30% complete at the time of the Reaper invasion, per Legion in ME2. A bubble configuration can theoretically absorb the total output of a star, but even a 10% drop in sunlight would be devastating to plant life. Even if we were to pretend it would have zero effect on Rannoch's long-term habitability, it's a stationary structure which guarantees they can never leave that system.

[Ledgend1221]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
And that's obviously why the geth built an offworld superstructure hub for all of their processes instead of using their existing network on Rannoch..? Right. Because out of all the star systems the Geth owned, wrapping the star that keeps Rannoch alive in a dyson bubble (permanently immobilizing themselves and doing untold damage to the planet their creators are physiologically dependent on) was SO much better...

What?
They're not building a dyson sphere.
They're building an offworld superstructre into which they can upload the entire consensus.

Their superstructure was a Dyson bubble built around Rannoch's sun - it's on the galaxy map.

It was only ~30% complete at the time of the Reaper invasion, per Legion in ME2. A bubble configuration can theoretically absorb the total output of a star, but even a 10% drop in sunlight would be devastating to plant life. Even if we were to pretend it would have zero effect on Rannoch's long-term habitability, it's a stationary structure which guarantees they can never leave that system.

It was built in orbit of the star.
Where does it say it's going to envelope it?

[HellbirdIV]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Even if we were to pretend it would have zero effect on Rannoch's long-term habitability, it's a stationary structure which guarantees they can never leave that system.

It's the geth's home system too. Legion says their condition for peace is coexistence. They shouldn't have to leave just because the quarians want the planet back - but now we're getting into the Holy Land territory.

They may leave Rannoch itself - platform presence on Rannoch proper is minimal - but picking up sticks and leaving what's been their home for 300 years? Hardly fair.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 18 juillet 2013 - 07:16 .

[DeinonSlayer]

@Ledgend, read the map, read the Wikipedia entry on what a Dyson bubble is. I'm not gonna hold your hand.

@Hellbird, "coexistence" will never come about if the Geth occupy the Quarian home system on a permanent basis and kill anyone who comes near it. It's true the Geth can't solve for peace alone - and they never will when the Geth themselves aren't even trying.

If the building you're in is on fire, and someone is keeping you locked inside with the fire, would you kill them to get out (retake Rannoch), or let yourself burn to death (Reapers catch you in space)? That's what the Quarians were faced with when the Reapers invaded. The Reapers are the fire. Rannoch is the fire escape (or flame-retardant shelter, if you will - not flame-proof, but it should hopefully last long enough to get the sprinklers on). The Geth are the gatekeeper who severed communication and barred the door. The Crucible is the sprinkler system. Your mission is to get your kid in the shelter so you can go out and work to repair the sprinklers. They're in there, they refuse to talk, they refuse to come out, and they shot the last guy who tried to get in. You either fight your way in, or you die in the fire. No alternatives.

The Geth response, of course, was to put on flame-retardant suits and set themselves and the room they were in on fire, then blame the guy they tried to lock out for the whole thing. Shepard has to go in the shelter and put out the fire they set, then try to keep them from killing each other, or, alternately, decide which of them will be allowed to kill the other.

(In case you can't tell, I'm tired. This analogy probably reads a lot weirder than it sounds in my head right now.)

The entire Rannoch situation could have been avoided. Both sides acted out of desperation. Blaming one party exclusively is short-sighted.

*sigh*

I've been in these debates more times than I can remember. The arguments you've made are nothing new - I've addressed these same points from different users time and time again, and I'm sick of repeating myself. You're firm on your stance, I'm firm on my stance, and neither of us is going to change the other's mind. It's late. I suggest we agree to disagree.

I accept fault for this; I should have resisted the urge to respond in the first place.

Thread's dead, baby. Thread's dead.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 18 juillet 2013 - 08:32 .

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
And that's obviously why the geth built an offworld superstructure hub for all of their processes instead of using their existing network on Rannoch..? Right. Because out of all the star systems the Geth owned, wrapping the star that keeps Rannoch alive in a dyson bubble (permanently immobilizing themselves and doing untold damage to the planet their creators are physiologically dependent on) was SO much better...

What?
They're not building a dyson sphere.
They're building an offworld superstructre into which they can upload the entire consensus.

Their superstructure was a Dyson bubble built around Rannoch's sun - it's on the galaxy map.

It was only ~30% complete at the time of the Reaper invasion, per Legion in ME2. A bubble configuration can theoretically absorb the total output of a star, but even a 10% drop in sunlight would be devastating to plant life. Even if we were to pretend it would have zero effect on Rannoch's long-term habitability, it's a stationary structure which guarantees they can never leave that system.

99.9999% of our suns output just beams out into interstellar space. It's not used in warming a planet or anything.

[silverexile17s]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The geth would have left Rannoch if the quarians had just asked. But they didn't, they just derped in and started shooting, so the geth did the galaxy a favour and got rid of them.

Tali knew Legion wanted peace. She was on the Admiralty board. She could have made the necessary arrangements. But she's too weak - and too obsessed with revenge.

Well, the Citadel sent peace delegations to the Perseus Veil, asking for permission to conduct formal negotiations between the geth and the Council.
And the geth responded by blowing them to hell. What reason did the quarians have to think the geth would treat anyone differently? The organics did try peace first -- as far as the galaxy, and quarians, know, the geth cast the first stone unprovoked when they seemingly alligned with Sovergien.

Um -- did you MISS the part where she said she was outvoted 3 - 2? Or the part where she said that her title is only a face-value one? Or when she came up to your cabin desperately wishing that she had more power to END the war? Or that the other admirals would take her more seriously??
Dude -- you've completely mischaracterized Tali on every level. She was Nothing like that after befriending Legion in ME2.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

The geth would have left Rannoch if the quarians had just asked. But they didn't, they just derped in and started shooting, so the geth did the galaxy a favour and got rid of them.

And with that display, I know I never have to take you seriously ever again. It's... liberating.

Also,



Seriously, silver. 25-day-old thread. Let the dead rest.

Sorry. Been in florida. Haven't really been keeping tabs on what's dead or not:unsure:. Sorry.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 juillet 2013 - 07:21 .

[silverexile17s]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
And that's obviously why the geth built an offworld superstructure hub for all of their processes instead of using their existing network on Rannoch..? Right. Because out of all the star systems the Geth owned, wrapping the star that keeps Rannoch alive in a dyson bubble (permanently immobilizing themselves and doing untold damage to the planet their creators are physiologically dependent on) was SO much better...

What?
They're not building a dyson sphere.
They're building an offworld superstructre into which they can upload the entire consensus.

Um... Legion says it's a "Dyson Bubble." Even it's in-game discription calls it such. "Megastructure" is just geth shorthand.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
And that's obviously why the geth built an offworld superstructure hub for all of their processes instead of using their existing network on Rannoch..? Right. Because out of all the star systems the Geth owned, wrapping the star that keeps Rannoch alive in a dyson bubble (permanently immobilizing themselves and doing untold damage to the planet their creators are physiologically dependent on) was SO much better...

What?
They're not building a dyson sphere.
They're building an offworld superstructre into which they can upload the entire consensus.

Their superstructure was a Dyson bubble built around Rannoch's sun - it's on the galaxy map.

It was only ~30% complete at the time of the Reaper invasion, per Legion in ME2. A bubble configuration can theoretically absorb the total output of a star, but even a 10% drop in sunlight would be devastating to plant life. Even if we were to pretend it would have zero effect on Rannoch's long-term habitability, it's a stationary structure which guarantees they can never leave that system.

99.9999% of our suns output just beams out into interstellar space. It's not used in warming a planet or anything.

Wrong. All known life is dependant on heat and energy transmitted to the planet's surface via sunlight. If a Dyson Sphere absorbes the total output of a star, then there is ZERO energy getting through -- no heat or energy is hitting the planet. Or at the least, a signifigant drop. And on an arid (desert-like) world like Rannoch, solar energy is critical for plant life to survive. Any drop is going to be devestating for the ecosystem, which is already sevearly weakened since the quarians left Rannoch.