1071 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

shodiswe wrote...

For the Quarian supporters it's mostly about Tali suspect. (at the core of it all)

Wanting their Shepard to build a home with Tali on Rannoch. Living there, growing old and feble. On a world where all Shepards food and medicine would have to be imported or grown in special "Vats" because Shepard isn't Dextro.
I'm guessing the Oxygen is breathable at least.

It's true for some, but not for all. 

[The Heretic of Time]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

136th wrote...

Shooting Legion was the best part of the Game.

I know right? I love punching the ignorant Quarian Admiral in the gut!

I love these Paragon kids who think punching Gerrel is justice because he had the nerve to actually act like a competent Admiral. How dare he!? The nerve!

Too bad it's a renegade response to an inept idiot who may have just screwed his chances to evacuate his fleet, which I'm going to need later, so that he can get some petty victory destroying a Geth dreadnought (which I'm still on board). I'd have put a bullet in his head if the game allowed me. This guy is stirring up **** to satisfy his nuclear hard on.

It might be a renegade respone, but that didn't stop you "paragon" kids from making that petty response to vent your petty anger.

Destroying that geth dreadnought is not a petty victory, it's a huge step forward for the quarians. That dreadnought was the geth's backbone of their fleet. Destroying that, and their entire fleet is in disarray, since they just lost millions of VI copies that were onboard of that dreadnought. This move in fact allowed them to win the war later.

Gerrel knew what he was doing, and if your Shepard has any respect for the military as a soldier he would understand and respect Gerrel's move. In fact, my Shepard did. Gerrel attacking the dreadnought after disabling it was exactly according to our plan.

But I guess you're just butt-hurt because Gerrel had the nerve to start wrecking that dreadnought while your Shepard was still on it.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 mai 2013 - 05:27 .

[Ryzaki]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah the usual geth/quarian debates.

For the record Rannoch belongs to the geth in my game. Don't regret it one bit.

I make peace. If I had to choose, I'd go with the Geth.

Hilariously enough the only characters of mine that go peace is my renedouche. But he was sick of those idiots wasting his time and energy when they all needed to be fighting the Reapers.

[The Night Mammoth]

OniTYME wrote...

Far Rim is a whole different star system.

I didn't suggest otherwise, and it's still part of geth space and inside the isolated Perseus Veil. 

And as I said, the geth could have just left if they had the upper hand rather than taking a whole planet hostage. Geth, while sentient, are machines. They can rebuilt and repaired or at the very least, uploaded. Sure the personalities could be different.

I've yet to see a reason for the geth to leave Rannoch. They could have, but why would they? It has everything they need. The quarians fought, and lost, so to the winner; the spoils. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 28 mai 2013 - 05:39 .

[Ravensword]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

136th wrote...

Shooting Legion was the best part of the Game.

I know right? I love punching the ignorant Quarian Admiral in the gut!

I love these Paragon kids who think punching Gerrel is justice because he had the nerve to actually act like a competent Admiral. How dare he!? The nerve!

Too bad it's a renegade response to an inept idiot who may have just screwed his chances to evacuate his fleet, which I'm going to need later, so that he can get some petty victory destroying a Geth dreadnought (which I'm still on board). I'd have put a bullet in his head if the game allowed me. This guy is stirring up **** to satisfy his nuclear hard on.

It might be a renegade respone, but that didn't stop you "paragon" kids from making that petty response to vent your petty anger.

Destroying that geth dreadnought is not a petty victory, it's a huge step forward for the quarians. That dreadnought was the geth's backbone of their fleet. Destroying that, and their entire fleet is in disarray, since they just lost millions of VI copies that were onboard of that dreadnought. This move in fact allowed them to win the war later.

Gerrel knew what he was doing, and if your Shepard has any respect for the military as a soldier he would understand and respect Gerrel's move. In fact, my Shepard did. Gerrel attacking the dreadnought after disabling it was exactly according to our plan.

But I guess you're just butt-hurt because Gerrel had the nerve to start wrecking that dreadnought while your Shepard was still on it.

I <3 quote pyramids.

Well, I have to say that Han'Gerrel was going to destroy the dreadnaught w/ Shepard onboard b/c he was seizing an opportunity and was willing to sacrifice Shepard, Tali, and another squadmate.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
It might be a renegade respone, but that didn't stop you "paragon" kids from making that petty response to vent your petty anger.

Destroying that geth dreadnought is not a petty victory, it's a huge step forward for the quarians. That dreadnought was the geth's backbone of their fleet. Destroying that, and their entire fleet is in disarray, since they just lost millions of VI copies that were onboard of that dreadnought. This move in fact allowed them to win the war later.

Gerrel knew what he was doing, and if your Shepard has any respect for the military as a soldier he would understand and respect Gerrel's move. In fact, my Shepard did. Gerrel attacking the dreadnought after disabling it was exactly according to our plan.

But I guess you're just butt-hurt because Gerrel had the nerve to start wrecking that dreadnought while your Shepard was still on it.

I'm hardly what you call a paragon. I'm actually pretty neutral. I support Cerberus, and I believe curing the genophage is a long-term bad idea.

It was a petty victory for a petty war that did little more than to waste resources from both sides that could have and should have been used against the Reapers. I told the Quarians that war was a bad idea. I and Legion told them the Geth were willing to make peace.

The Dreadnought clearly wasn't the backbone of their fleet since it was established that the Geth were still putting up a fight, and even still slowly whittling away at the Quarians. And my goal isn't to make this a pissing contest to see who's better. It's to get both sides to shut up and get behind me to fight the real enemy. So far, the Quarians have been fighting me at every step, while I have assurances from the Geth that once they are safe from attack of the Quarians, they're more than willing to help. I know that they were in fact preparing to help and would not have sided with the Reapers had the Quarians not attacked them.

And as a soldier and as a junior officer, I have no respect for Gerrel as a leader. I also rather resent those words personally. He willfully endangered the lives of his people to settle a score of attacking the Geth fleet instead of looking to his people's safety, and trusting me to diffuse the problem. All he did was escalate the problem to have the war that he always wanted. He pretty much extorted the support of the other Quarians when they could have retreated to safety. 

And yes, he did fire on a ship with the guy who's spearheading the entire war effort against the Reapers to have his petty victory, nor did he show any concern or remorse at the action. He damn well nearly damned both his people and the fight against the Reapers for his crap. Not to mention endagering one of his fellow Admirals and leaders in the fight.

He's an idiot who rightfully deserves every charge against him. He's utterly incompetent and unfit to be a leader of his people. He is utterly ignoring the fact that the Geth were willing to have peace and coexistence to perpetuate a war that endangers his people and wastes military assets from both sides.

And I think you're letting some stupid vendetta against the Geth dictate your actions and opinions.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 28 mai 2013 - 05:55 .

[David7204]

The war was unfortunate, but the quarians had no reason to expect it. They were eliminating the geth without casualties before they allied with the Reapers.

Plenty of people have moaned about the war, but if we hadn't met Legion in ME 2 and the geth actually did turn out to be 'evil,' the very same people would be shrieking at the quarians if they had passed up the perfect opportunity to take out an incredibly powerful ally of the Reapers when they had the chance.  Shrieking at them for doing exactly what they claim is obvious now.

Modifié par David7204, 28 mai 2013 - 05:49 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

The war was unfortunate, but the quarians had no reason to expect it. They were eliminating the geth without casualties before they allied with the Reapers.

Plenty of people have moaned about it, but if we hadn't met Legion in ME 2 and the geth actually did turn out to be 'evil,' the very same people would be shrieking at the quarians if the passed up the perfect opportunity to take out an incredibly powerful ally of the Reapers when they had the chance. 

That changes the context though.

ME2 establishes that the Geth, in theory, are willing to be allies and don't actually seek violence. 

The way you describe makes them complete pawns of the Reapers that didn't submit themselves to slavery out of fear for their own lives. It just makes them the anti-organic killbots that some people want them to be. Like Cerberus in ME3. They're Reaper pawns. Regardless of how I feel about them or their goals, I really have no choice but to take them down since they're detriment to the war effort. Actively fighting and sabotaging our efforts against the Reapers. For the good of the galaxy, they need to be stopped.

I regret the actions of the Quarians that caused the Geth to go into the Reapers hands. They really had no choice, and they know it. Either sit and be killed by the Quarians, or become slaves to the Reapers in exchange for short-term life. Long term will lead to their death by the Reapers as well.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 28 mai 2013 - 05:56 .

[David7204]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

That changes the context though.

ME2 establishes that the Geth, in theory, are willing to be allies and don't actually seek violence. 

The way you describe makes them complete pawns of the Reapers that didn't submit themselves to slavery out of fear for their own lives. It just makes them the anti-organic killbots that some people want them to be. Like Cerberus in ME3. They're Reaper pawns. Regardless of how I feel about them or their goals, I really have no choice but to take them down since they're detriment to the war effort. Actively fighting and sabotaging our efforts against the Reapers. For the good of the galaxy, they need to be stopped.

I regret the actions of the Quarians that caused the Geth to go into the Reapers hands. They really had no choice, and they know it. Either sit and be killed by the Quarians, or become slaves to the Reapers in exchange for short-term life. Long term will lead to their death by the Reapers as well.

Not for the quarians, it doesn't. The only evidence they have of the geth's true nature is Tali and Legion's word, and Legion has every reason to lie to them.

[The Heretic of Time]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And as a soldier and as a junior officer, I have no respect for Gerrel as a leader. I also rather resent those words personally. He willfully endangered the lives of his people to settle a score of attacking the Geth fleet instead of looking to his people's safety, and trusting me to diffuse the problem. All he did was escalate the problem to have the war that he always wanted. He pretty much extorted the support of the other Quarians when they could have retreated to safety. 

But why retreat if you can destroy the main ship of your enemy's fleet practically for free? This was an oppertunity that you only get once. Gerrel decided to seize that oppertunity and put down the geth dreadnought once and for all. 

I understand Gerrel and I realize that my Shepard would have done the same if he was in the same situation.

And yes, he did fire on a ship with the guy who's spearheading the entire war effort against the Reapers to have his petty victory, nor did he show any concern or remorse at the action. He damn well nearly damned both his people and the fight against the Reapers for his crap. Not to mention endagering one of his fellow Admirals and leaders in the fight.

Heavy risk, but the priiiiiiiizeeeeeee.

Seriously, Shepard made it out alive, and we now have one geth dreadnought less to deal with. Stop moaning, Gerrel's move brought us one step closer to destroying the geth, which is a good thing.

And you call this war petty, but you wouldn't talk the same about retaking earth. The quarians lost their home world. They want it back. This means a lot to them. This war totally is not petty for them, and this victory isn't either.

He's an idiot who rightfully deserves every charge against him. He's utterly incompetent and unfit to be a leader of his people. He is utterly ignoring the fact that the Geth were willing to have peace and coexistence to perpetuate a war that endangers his people and wastes military assets from both sides.

And I think you're letting some stupid vendetta against the Geth dictate your actions and opinions.

LMAO! Did you just read what the hell you wrote right before you accuse me of having a vendetta against the geth? LOL! 

If anyone has a vendetta, it's clearly you (against the quarians). I just want those talking toasters to be dealth with and move on. I have no strong feelings one way or the other towards the geth, and why would I? They're just machines after all.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

That changes the context though.

ME2 establishes that the Geth, in theory, are willing to be allies and don't actually seek violence. 

The way you describe makes them complete pawns of the Reapers that didn't submit themselves to slavery out of fear for their own lives. It just makes them the anti-organic killbots that some people want them to be. Like Cerberus in ME3. They're Reaper pawns. Regardless of how I feel about them or their goals, I really have no choice but to take them down since they're detriment to the war effort. Actively fighting and sabotaging our efforts against the Reapers. For the good of the galaxy, they need to be stopped.

I regret the actions of the Quarians that caused the Geth to go into the Reapers hands. They really had no choice, and they know it. Either sit and be killed by the Quarians, or become slaves to the Reapers in exchange for short-term life. Long term will lead to their death by the Reapers as well.

Not for the quarians, it doesn't. The only evidence they have of the geth's true nature is Tali and Legion's word, and Legion has every reason to lie to them.

So the Quarians have no proof then. I should probably say this: Why then can't Shepard be the middleman for a deal? Let him go to Rannoch with Tali and Legion and make peace on behalf of the Quarians. What do the Quarians have to lose? Why do they have to force an issue that I letter tell them repeatedly isn't one?

[shodiswe]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

OniTYME wrote...

Far Rim is a whole different star system.

And as I said, the geth could have just left if they had the upper hand rather than taking a whole planet hostage. Geth, while sentient, are machines. They can rebuilt and repaired or at the very least, uploaded. Sure the personalities could be different. And shutting down programs, genocide? Really? LOL

A lot of it comes down to how people define life. 

My PC isn't alive, my Samsung pad isn't alive nor is my TV or Car. A Geth however as they are depicted through Legion and through in-game history, shows that they are alive, and also alien at the same time.

I don't belive the makeup of your body is what makes you alive, because if that was the case then Tali wouldn't be alive since she's dextro and that goes against the conventions and definitions on how life on earth works.

There is AI research in the real world but it's more like looking at the basic functions of bacteria. It's not sentient as far as I know, nor is Bacteria or Viruses.
But at some point it might become "sentient", if it shows certain signs of sentience.

Those definitions are tricky however.

I'm not that impressed by humans tbh, most behaviors are programmed repetitive reactions to stimuli.

When I proved and presented a mathematical solution for a set of thousands of years old problems that had never been solved mathematically, I was told that the correct answers wasn't enough, I would have to apply the "teachings" and mathematics taught in class or I would be failed. So I had to retake the exam and use "accepted" methods. (non-mathematical methods with approximations and tables)
Just one small conversion and one wouldn’t have to use tables or approximations.

I later snuck it into some calculations for an astronomy class where I got a top grade for having 12 correct decimal numbers where the expected was 2   The teachers "right answer" wasn't long enough, 8 or so so he had to get more accurate numbers from some colleagues from his past.

Unlike my mathematics teacher he accepted it even if he and his friends had problems recognizing the mathematics used to get the answer. Having earned the highest grade already I decided it was best not to tempt fate and get into something I knew my Mathematics teacher hated already.

Do I consider people intelligent and sentient? Maybe. There has certainly been some advancement since the stoneage, so yes, some intelligence. Sentience? I guess so, if I poke someone they normaly react to it. They usualy show signs that they become aware that I’m there.
In a similar way in game Geth shows “awareness” and they seem to be developing and inventing, tools, new ideas. They also seem to be striving to learn and evolve and to actively pursue their own future.
Sapiens? Yes, tool use and development of new tools.
I can’t eat them however since my metabolism won’t agree with their materials. Though ironicly the Quarians and/or their (food stuff) are just as indigestible as the Geth. I can’t biologicaly consume either of them since they aren’t constructed according to the standard template for organic "living" beings on Earth.


When it comes to the Geth then you can't compare them to a car or a phone which lacks sentience and intelligence, just because of superficial appearances.
That would be like judging peoples sentience and intelligence merely by the color of their skin.

Modifié par shodiswe, 28 mai 2013 - 06:16 .

[David7204]

If the quarians go to war they get their homeworld back which they've wanted for 300 years, they get to destroy a hated enemy, and they get to remove a powerful galactic threat. They have all of that to lose. What, in their minds, do they gain by making peace?

Modifié par David7204, 28 mai 2013 - 06:18 .

[shodiswe]

David7204 wrote...

If the quarians go to war they get their homeworld back which they've wanted for 300 years, they get to destroy a hated enemy, and they get to remove a powerful galactic threat. They have all of that to lose. What, in their minds, do they gain by making peace?

The lives of all those people lost in the war aswell as a powerful ally against the Reapers. Only fools goes to war against a third party when they know they are already being targeted by the Reapers.

[David7204]

As I just said, it wasn't a war at that point. The quarians had Xen's weapon - they were eliminating the geth without cost or casualties. In addition, the quarians had every reason to believe the geth were an ally of the Reapers, not an asset against them.

Modifié par David7204, 28 mai 2013 - 06:25 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

But why retreat if you can destroy the main ship of your enemy's fleet practically for free? This was an oppertunity that you only get once. Gerrel decided to seize that oppertunity and put down the geth dreadnought once and for all. 

I understand Gerrel and I realize that my Shepard would have done the same if he was in the same situation.

And why destroy the main ship of the Geth when they've stated they don't wish to fight and wish to assist against the Reapers?

You're willfully killing a potential ally that is willing to coexist peacefully with your other ally, who wants them dead. I'd say the problem is on your end and your ally's end.

I understand Gerrel fully and know that he made a stupid move for a stupid calculation for a stupid war that's endagering his people and throwing away assets.

Heavy risk, but the priiiiiiiizeeeeeee.

Seriously, Shepard made it out alive, and we now have one geth dreadnought less to deal with. Stop moaning, Gerrel's move brought us one step closer to destroying the geth, which is a good thing.

And you call this war petty, but you wouldn't talk the same about retaking earth. The quarians lost their home world. They want it back. This means a lot to them. This war totally is not petty for them, and this victory isn't either.

I think Gerrel's whole problem is that he see's the Geth as an enemy, which they've been shown to not be as an overall. That Geth Dreadnought that got destroyed is now one less that we can use against the Reapers.

And this war is petty. You're ignoring context too (though I shouldn't pretend that these words will actually have any effect on you.) Earth was taken by the Reapers, who wish to kill and harvest and destroy life. That's all they are objectively shown to do. Earth is also being systematically destroyed. The Reapers are on the march destroying our cities and infrastructure. 

The Geth don't. The Geth are willing to compromise, the Geth are willing to coexist, the Geth are willing to have peace.

Everything that the Quarians did during the war - in fact the purpose of the entire war - was something that could have been acheieved peaceably. There didn't have to be violence, there didn't have to be war. 

Gerrel ignored this. He ignored it and thousands, possibly millions of Quarian lives and who knows how many Geth programs, along with large amounts of ships, weapons, and resources were lost. That's plain mismanagement right there. This ship didn't have to be destroyed. It could have been committed to the fight against the Reapers. The ships Gerrel wasted on destroying it didn't have to be destroyed. They could have been committed against the Reapers.

LMAO! Did you just read what the hell you wrote right before you accuse me of having a vendetta against the geth? LOL! 

If anyone has a vendetta, it's clearly you (against the quarians). I just want those talking toasters to be dealth with and move on. I have no strong feelings one way or the other towards the geth, and why would I? They're just machines after all.

Yeah, I did read what I wrote, and you've given me no reason to change my opinion.

I have no vendetta against the Quarians. But I do think that most of the leadership that they havedisplayed is incredibly and fundamentally inept. They're blindly ignoring the Reapers for a war against a race who doesn't want it, to retake a planet from that race that said race was more than willing to share.

The "talking toasters" and "machines" are willing to help you in the war. They're willing to give you their highly advanced force and commit 100% of their resources towards the war effort. All they want in return is to not have to worry about being destroyed by organics. All they want is peace with them.

Would you so willingly throw away resources in a fight simply because you don't view them as valid? Because that's what you're advocating. And that's what the Quarians are doing.

And honestly, if you really hate the Geth that much, just choose Destroy. That solves the problem for you, and you can make the Geth useful before they die.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 28 mai 2013 - 06:39 .

[Skvindt]

In Mass Effect 2, Legion says that they prefer space stations and asteroids for bases and resource gathering than planets.  They remain on Rannoch as caretakers for the planet.

Edit:  Skip to 1:30:

Modifié par SRX, 28 mai 2013 - 06:33 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

If the quarians go to war they get their homeworld back which they've wanted for 300 years, they get to destroy a hated enemy, and they get to remove a powerful galactic threat. They have all of that to lose. What, in their minds, do they gain by making peace?

What do they have to gain by making peace?

They have their homeworld that they've wanted back for 300 years, the hated enemy that can become a powerful friend and ally willing to have peace with them and help them reintegrate, and they diffuse a galactic problem (with the Geth) without losing any people, resources, or materials or doing the same to the Geth.

And we thus have more people, resources, and materials to use against the Reapers. That seems pretty good to me.

In short, they gain in peace everything they would have gained anyway through war.

It's a win-win situation opting for peace.

I see now that you said "in their minds". To that, I don't have an answer. Koris might have seen it this way, but the others didn't. I can't explain why.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 28 mai 2013 - 06:36 .

[Ravensword]

I like to headcannon that when Tali does that sweet reverse swan dive off the cliff, she survives the plunge but is rendered unconscious. She is later awakens on a beach and thereafter she manages to find transportation off world and travels to Illium where she meets up w/ Valley Girl Quarian from the Eternity lounge who is sad that her friend Friendzoned Turian was transformed in the infamous bandito, Marauder Shields. Tali is happy to find another Quarian, and thus the search to find more Quarian survivors begins.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ravensword wrote...

I like to headcannon that when Tali does that sweet reverse swan dive off the cliff, she survives the plunge but is rendered unconscious. She is later awakens on a beach and thereafter she manages to find transportation off world and travels to Illium where she meets up w/ Valley Girl Quarian from the Eternity lounge who is sad that her friend Friendzoned Turian was transformed in the infamous bandito, Marauder Shields. Tali is happy to find another Quarian, and thus the search to find more Quarian survivors begins.

You can't explain how she fell. Plot hole.

Gravity is just a myth. :innocent:

[MegaSovereign]

Ravensword wrote...

I like to headcannon that when Tali does that sweet reverse swan dive off the cliff, she survives the plunge but is rendered unconscious. She is later awakens on a beach and thereafter she manages to find transportation off world and travels to Illium where she meets up w/ Valley Girl Quarian from the Eternity lounge who is sad that her friend Friendzoned Turian was transformed in the infamous bandito, Marauder Shields. Tali is happy to find another Quarian, and thus the search to find more Quarian survivors begins.

Deep.

[David7204]

No, the geth can at best become a neutral faction that leaves them alone. The quarians aren't interested in the geth helping them before the Reapers invade. The geth would still be, at best, under heavy suspicion by both the quarians and galaxy at large. Elimating the geth gives them certainty that the issue is over and done with.

Modifié par David7204, 28 mai 2013 - 06:38 .

[Ravensword]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I like to headcannon that when Tali does that sweet reverse swan dive off the cliff, she survives the plunge but is rendered unconscious. She is later awakens on a beach and thereafter she manages to find transportation off world and travels to Illium where she meets up w/ Valley Girl Quarian from the Eternity lounge who is sad that her friend Friendzoned Turian was transformed in the infamous bandito, Marauder Shields. Tali is happy to find another Quarian, and thus the search to find more Quarian survivors begins.

You can't explain how she fell. Plot hole.

Gravity is just a myth. :innocent:

Well, I'm not about to let mai waifu die like that, and so that's what headcanon is for, I tell you what, sir.