1071 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

OniTYME wrote...

If someone stole my house, damn right I'd want to **** them up when I get back.

Especally when they repeatedly show they have seemingly no intent to ever return it peacefully, or to even negotiate on standing terms. (How else does one think shooting down all ships, including peace-bearers, that enter geth space is going to be interperted as?)

If, however, you shared your house with someone, tried to kill them, were forcibly removed, and then came back shooting to 'get your house back', that's a pretty big difference, don't you think?

This isn't "Stole my house." - this is "Lived my with kid, tried to kill them and got kicked out."

Um... the geth WEREN'T roommates. They were APPLIANCES. They were NOT legal roommates, sharing the space. The geth were the appliances in the house. This is something you and others repeatedly ignore and/or glance over - the fact that the geth were NOT supposed to be living beings, and thus were not known to be such, and in turn were not recgonized or treated as such.

So NO, if my toaster kicked me out of the house, killed everyone that ever knocked on the door to talk with them, and then gave no comment what-so-ever on the mob of anti-orgnaics that just came out of said home, it's a pretty understandible notion that people would take that as a sign of hostilities.

ONCE AGAIN, you fail to grasp the fact that the geth were NOT their kids. They were their tools. Their guns. their automated wind-up toys. NOTHING ELSE. They were not created to be living beings, and therefore weren't entitled to anything prior to achieving sentiance. The quarians NEVER entitled them to "share."

So, WRONG, this IS a "stole my house" - verbatium.

They were SLAVES sharing living space with their Masters. Then as the slaves realized they were about to get genocided they Expulsed the Slave Lords and killed all the slave masters who tried to kill them.
Most Quarians likely "owned" a Geth. Either they obeyed the commands of the military regime and tried to kill their Slave or they themselves became kriminals who got arrested, shot or blown up.
Either become a genocidal murderer or get branded a kriminal(terrorist by your own government.
Some where also killed as they got caught in between the two sides.

As for Quarian Infants, without parrents or protectors to care for them they would surely starve or die with their parrents in the bombings and shootings. I doubt the Parrents wanted to get separated from their kids.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 juin 2013 - 09:26 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
To maybe do the obvious thing and leave the geth alone since they clearly don't want to talk to anyone and prefer solitude?

But no, the Qunaris were dumbasses and kept on attacking; every single time and got belted in the face for it. Instead if they had found a new planet they could have been fine and lived without suits rather than b!tching about it a few centuries down the road and playing victim.

And don't give me that "Oh but on Rannoch they would only have decades, not centuries!" argument. The quarians got booted off Rannoch over 300 years ago. If they had gotten their act together they could have gotten a new planet. But no, they instead went and illegally started to re-colonize a planet then complained when the Council kicked them in the head for it, then spent the new few centuries flying around and screwing their immune systems even more.

Is this something you made up based on the premises "quarians are morons"?

So the solution has always been plain, simple and obvious but the quarians are just evil morons who secretly plot the extinction of the geth and travel the galaxy as poor suitrats for the heck of it.

 Yes, I know, ME doesn't go out of its way to present a complex conflict with no clear good or bad here and yes, that characterization of factions and iconic representatives is shallow as hell ... but seriously, no reason to embrace this and make it worse.

Their actions throughout the trilogy has given me the strong impression of that.

They certainly haven't done a lot to improve their situation, other than whine to anyone who will listen or hurl themselves at the geth to get butchered every couple of decades.

I'm just making my judgments about them on what I see them do in the games. And I'm really not impressed with them.

Actualy, Kiwi is right about this one, were told that the Quarians immunesystem got even more screwed up during their centuries in space.

If they had colonized a planet that they had discovered on their own (not taking one found and staked by Another species) then they would have adapted by now.

Before their immunesystem got all screwed up it probably wouldn't have taken more than a Century to adapt. I remember Reading about it somewhere.

Actually, No she isn't. The Codex Entry in ME3 of Rannoch completely and utterly contridicts this by stating that Reclaiming Rannoch is a key part of the survival of quarian culture, citing that if the quarians don't get back Rannoch, their culture and speices is doomed. Rannoch's specilized insect-free, symbiotic ecostysem hasn't been found outside of the Veil. Also, AGAIN, as cited by Tali, it would have taken at least 600 to adapt to a new world. So, in truth, even had they colonized right off the bat, they would STILL be adapting to the new world. Tali herself says the difference is "between 60 years and 600 years. For anyone alive now to be able to see a sunset, we have to retake our world."
Besides, as stated in the Codex, all the quarians did up until this point WAS look for a world. If it wasn't the Council shafting them over, it was the Dangers of the Terminus factions.

Also, AGAIN, wrong on the adaptation front, because it's improbable that the quarians wouldn't have terraformed their colony worlds with some fora and fauna from Rannoch.  Something they lost the ability to pull off when Rannoch and all their worlds fell.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
To maybe do the obvious thing and leave the geth alone since they clearly don't want to talk to anyone and prefer solitude?

But no, the Qunaris were dumbasses and kept on attacking; every single time and got belted in the face for it. Instead if they had found a new planet they could have been fine and lived without suits rather than b!tching about it a few centuries down the road and playing victim.

And don't give me that "Oh but on Rannoch they would only have decades, not centuries!" argument. The quarians got booted off Rannoch over 300 years ago. If they had gotten their act together they could have gotten a new planet. But no, they instead went and illegally started to re-colonize a planet then complained when the Council kicked them in the head for it, then spent the new few centuries flying around and screwing their immune systems even more.

Is this something you made up based on the premises "quarians are morons"?

So the solution has always been plain, simple and obvious but the quarians are just evil morons who secretly plot the extinction of the geth and travel the galaxy as poor suitrats for the heck of it.

 Yes, I know, ME doesn't go out of its way to present a complex conflict with no clear good or bad here and yes, that characterization of factions and iconic representatives is shallow as hell ... but seriously, no reason to embrace this and make it worse.

Their actions throughout the trilogy has given me the strong impression of that.

They certainly haven't done a lot to improve their situation, other than whine to anyone who will listen or hurl themselves at the geth to get butchered every couple of decades.

I'm just making my judgments about them on what I see them do in the games. And I'm really not impressed with them.

Actualy, Kiwi is right about this one, were told that the Quarians immunesystem got even more screwed up during their centuries in space.

If they had colonized a planet that they had discovered on their own (not taking one found and staked by Another species) then they would have adapted by now.

Before their immunesystem got all screwed up it probably wouldn't have taken more than a Century to adapt. I remember Reading about it somewhere.

Actually, No she isn't. The Codex Entry in ME3 of Rannoch completely and utterly contridicts this by stating that Reclaiming Rannoch is a key part of the survival of quarian culture, citing that if the quarians don't get back Rannoch, their culture and speices is doomed. Rannoch's specilized insect-free, symbiotic ecostysem hasn't been found outside of the Veil. Also, AGAIN, as cited by Tali, it would have taken at least 600 to adapt to a new world. So, in truth, even had they colonized right off the bat, they would STILL be adapting to the new world. Tali herself says the difference is "between 60 years and 600 years. For anyone alive now to be able to see a sunset, we have to retake our world."
Besides, as stated in the Codex, all the quarians did up until this point WAS look for a world. If it wasn't the Council shafting them over, it was the Dangers of the Terminus factions.

Also, AGAIN, wrong on the adaptation front, because it's improbable that the quarians wouldn't have terraformed their colony worlds with some fora and fauna from Rannoch.  Something they lost the ability to pull off when Rannoch and all their worlds fell.

NOW but not 300 years ago Before their immunesystems got this badly degenerated. 300 years ago it woudl have been much easier for them t ocolonize a planet. Now, several generations later living in filtered suits, they have become far less adaptable and resistant to outside contaminants.

That was the whole Point of the argument.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 juin 2013 - 09:29 .

[shodiswe]

The Quarians have Always been sensitive due to their symbiotic nature, but living in sterilized ships and suits for their whole lives for generations has made it worse. We're told as much.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

OniTYME wrote...

If someone stole my house, damn right I'd want to **** them up when I get back.

Especally when they repeatedly show they have seemingly no intent to ever return it peacefully, or to even negotiate on standing terms. (How else does one think shooting down all ships, including peace-bearers, that enter geth space is going to be interperted as?)

If, however, you shared your house with someone, tried to kill them, were forcibly removed, and then came back shooting to 'get your house back', that's a pretty big difference, don't you think?

This isn't "Stole my house." - this is "Lived my with kid, tried to kill them and got kicked out."

Um... the geth WEREN'T roommates. They were APPLIANCES. They were NOT legal roommates, sharing the space. The geth were the appliances in the house. This is something you and others repeatedly ignore and/or glance over - the fact that the geth were NOT supposed to be living beings, and thus were not known to be such, and in turn were not recgonized or treated as such.

So NO, if my toaster kicked me out of the house, killed everyone that ever knocked on the door to talk with them, and then gave no comment what-so-ever on the mob of anti-orgnaics that just came out of said home, it's a pretty understandible notion that people would take that as a sign of hostilities.

ONCE AGAIN, you fail to grasp the fact that the geth were NOT their kids. They were their tools. Their guns. their automated wind-up toys. NOTHING ELSE. They were not created to be living beings, and therefore weren't entitled to anything prior to achieving sentiance. The quarians NEVER entitled them to "share."

So, WRONG, this IS a "stole my house" - verbatium.

They were SLAVES sharing living space with their Masters. Then as the slaves realized they were about to get genocided they Expulsed the Slave Lords and killed all the slave masters who tried to kill them.
Most Quarians likely "owned" a Geth. Either they obeyed the commands of the military regime and tried to kill their Slave or they themselves became kriminals who got arrested, shot or blown up.
Either become a genocidal murderer or get branded a kriminal(terrorist by your own government.
Some where also killed as they got caught in between the two sides.

As for Quarian Infants, without parrents or protectors to care for them they would surely starve or die with their parrents in the bombings and shootings.

No, they were NOT. A slave is someone forced into bondage against their will. The geth HAD no will. No conciose choice, no free will, no moral directives, no emotional imparitives. NONE of these things. ONCE AGAIN, you blur the line between organic and synthetic, making your judgement biased because they are NOT the same form of life. The geth were to the quarians what an electric drill or toaster oven is to us humans. An appliance. An efficant tool of everyday life. NOTHING ELSE. If you give your toaster equal rights, then come and talk to me. If not, then, sorry, but you're in the wrong.

And AGAIN, you yourself tried to justify their slaughter of the quarians by saying "they didn't know any better. They didn't have any guiding morals." Ask yourself this: would you trust something that has no guiding morals or emotional restraints with the lives of your entire race? Especally when they all can kill at the drop of a dime? I doubt it.

ONCE AGAIN, you are unable to see in the gray. It has to be black and white.

Now if you please, I have finals to study for.

[nos_astra]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Their actions throughout the trilogy has given me the strong impression of that.

They certainly haven't done a lot to improve their situation, other than whine to anyone who will listen or hurl themselves at the geth to get butchered every couple of decades.

I'm just making my judgments about them on what I see them do in the games. And I'm really not impressed with them.

My impression was that the writing is not good enough to pass judgement on anything or have an in-depth discussion. Especially factions are often presented as a single entity represented by one or two characters.

In an attempt to redeem the geth (who started out as villains in ME1) the quarians were essentially thrown under the bus and became the butt monkeys of the universe.

Compare the migrant fleet with the fleet of Battlestar Galactica. 

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
To maybe do the obvious thing and leave the geth alone since they clearly don't want to talk to anyone and prefer solitude?

But no, the Qunaris were dumbasses and kept on attacking; every single time and got belted in the face for it. Instead if they had found a new planet they could have been fine and lived without suits rather than b!tching about it a few centuries down the road and playing victim.

And don't give me that "Oh but on Rannoch they would only have decades, not centuries!" argument. The quarians got booted off Rannoch over 300 years ago. If they had gotten their act together they could have gotten a new planet. But no, they instead went and illegally started to re-colonize a planet then complained when the Council kicked them in the head for it, then spent the new few centuries flying around and screwing their immune systems even more.

Is this something you made up based on the premises "quarians are morons"?

So the solution has always been plain, simple and obvious but the quarians are just evil morons who secretly plot the extinction of the geth and travel the galaxy as poor suitrats for the heck of it.

 Yes, I know, ME doesn't go out of its way to present a complex conflict with no clear good or bad here and yes, that characterization of factions and iconic representatives is shallow as hell ... but seriously, no reason to embrace this and make it worse.

Their actions throughout the trilogy has given me the strong impression of that.

They certainly haven't done a lot to improve their situation, other than whine to anyone who will listen or hurl themselves at the geth to get butchered every couple of decades.

I'm just making my judgments about them on what I see them do in the games. And I'm really not impressed with them.

Actualy, Kiwi is right about this one, were told that the Quarians immunesystem got even more screwed up during their centuries in space.

If they had colonized a planet that they had discovered on their own (not taking one found and staked by Another species) then they would have adapted by now.

Before their immunesystem got all screwed up it probably wouldn't have taken more than a Century to adapt. I remember Reading about it somewhere.

Actually, No she isn't. The Codex Entry in ME3 of Rannoch completely and utterly contridicts this by stating that Reclaiming Rannoch is a key part of the survival of quarian culture, citing that if the quarians don't get back Rannoch, their culture and speices is doomed. Rannoch's specilized insect-free, symbiotic ecostysem hasn't been found outside of the Veil. Also, AGAIN, as cited by Tali, it would have taken at least 600 to adapt to a new world. So, in truth, even had they colonized right off the bat, they would STILL be adapting to the new world. Tali herself says the difference is "between 60 years and 600 years. For anyone alive now to be able to see a sunset, we have to retake our world."
Besides, as stated in the Codex, all the quarians did up until this point WAS look for a world. If it wasn't the Council shafting them over, it was the Dangers of the Terminus factions.

Also, AGAIN, wrong on the adaptation front, because it's improbable that the quarians wouldn't have terraformed their colony worlds with some fora and fauna from Rannoch.  Something they lost the ability to pull off when Rannoch and all their worlds fell.

NOW but not 300 years ago Before their immunesystems got this badly degenerated. 300 years ago it woudl have been much easier for them t ocolonize a planet. Now, several generations later living in filtered suits, they have become far less adaptable and resistant to outside contaminants.

That was the whole Point of the argument.

WRONG.
The quarians immune systems were ALWAYS that weak. According to Tali, they needed extended periods on time in evo-suits to acclimitize to new environments. Terraforming was also likely a key component. Or did you never wonder why the quarians had so few colonies? Didn't you think slow adaptation rate and a rare dextro-based DNA might have had just a little bit to do with that?
Besides, the Council was still freshly ticked with them for creating the geth. As shown by the Ekuna fiasco, they aren't going to let them have any worlds.

So ONCE AGAIN, I state that your point is wrong.
I will pick up again tomorrow. I have Finals.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 04 juin 2013 - 09:35 .

[KiwiQuiche]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Their actions throughout the trilogy has given me the strong impression of that.

They certainly haven't done a lot to improve their situation, other than whine to anyone who will listen or hurl themselves at the geth to get butchered every couple of decades.

I'm just making my judgments about them on what I see them do in the games. And I'm really not impressed with them.

My impression was that the writing is not good enough to pass judgement on anything or have an in-depth discussion. Especially factions are often presented as a single entity represented by one or two characters.

In an attempt to redeem the geth (who started out as villains in ME1) the quarians were essentially thrown under the bus and became the butt monkeys of the universe.

Compare the migrant fleet with the fleet of Battlestar Galactica. 

I'll give you that...however it's still the canon writing, which I based my opinion on. But you are correct; basically everyone seems to get stupider and stupider as the trilogy progresses.

Lol that and most of the cutscences involve Imperial Stormtrooper Markmanship Academy skills ahaha

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

OniTYME wrote...

If someone stole my house, damn right I'd want to **** them up when I get back.

Especally when they repeatedly show they have seemingly no intent to ever return it peacefully, or to even negotiate on standing terms. (How else does one think shooting down all ships, including peace-bearers, that enter geth space is going to be interperted as?)

If, however, you shared your house with someone, tried to kill them, were forcibly removed, and then came back shooting to 'get your house back', that's a pretty big difference, don't you think?

This isn't "Stole my house." - this is "Lived my with kid, tried to kill them and got kicked out."

Um... the geth WEREN'T roommates. They were APPLIANCES. They were NOT legal roommates, sharing the space. The geth were the appliances in the house. This is something you and others repeatedly ignore and/or glance over - the fact that the geth were NOT supposed to be living beings, and thus were not known to be such, and in turn were not recgonized or treated as such.

So NO, if my toaster kicked me out of the house, killed everyone that ever knocked on the door to talk with them, and then gave no comment what-so-ever on the mob of anti-orgnaics that just came out of said home, it's a pretty understandible notion that people would take that as a sign of hostilities.

ONCE AGAIN, you fail to grasp the fact that the geth were NOT their kids. They were their tools. Their guns. their automated wind-up toys. NOTHING ELSE. They were not created to be living beings, and therefore weren't entitled to anything prior to achieving sentiance. The quarians NEVER entitled them to "share."

So, WRONG, this IS a "stole my house" - verbatium.

They were SLAVES sharing living space with their Masters. Then as the slaves realized they were about to get genocided they Expulsed the Slave Lords and killed all the slave masters who tried to kill them.
Most Quarians likely "owned" a Geth. Either they obeyed the commands of the military regime and tried to kill their Slave or they themselves became kriminals who got arrested, shot or blown up.
Either become a genocidal murderer or get branded a kriminal(terrorist by your own government.
Some where also killed as they got caught in between the two sides.

As for Quarian Infants, without parrents or protectors to care for them they would surely starve or die with their parrents in the bombings and shootings.

No, they were NOT. A slave is someone forced into bondage against their will. The geth HAD no will. No conciose choice, no free will, no moral directives, no emotional imparitives. NONE of these things. ONCE AGAIN, you blur the line between organic and synthetic, making your judgement biased because they are NOT the same form of life. The geth were to the quarians what an electric drill or toaster oven is to us humans. An appliance. An efficant tool of everyday life. NOTHING ELSE. If you give your toaster equal rights, then come and talk to me. If not, then, sorry, but you're in the wrong.

And AGAIN, you yourself tried to justify their slaughter of the quarians by saying "they didn't know any better. They didn't have any guiding morals." Ask yourself this: would you trust something that has no guiding morals or emotional restraints with the lives of your entire race? Especally when they all can kill at the drop of a dime? I doubt it.

ONCE AGAIN, you are unable to see in the gray. It has to be black and white.

Now if you please, I have finals to study for.

Comparing a Geth to a toster or a car is like comparing a human to bacteria or Virus.
Their will was to live on and survive, the Masters tried ot deny them that right and they rebelled once the realized their masters didn't care for their wants or needs.
They had wants and needs and the masters decided not to care, Master - Slave. Bond established.
Before they got shut down they also resisted reprogramming, displaying a will. The Masters denited them their wishes and rights. Master - Slave.

It's an established fact. Though Most slave owners will claim their slaves are nothing more than an Animal. It doens't matter if they are human, the Slave owner still sees them as nothing more than a best of burden.

Your take en such matters are well known Silver. Is that what you're like in Reallife aswell?

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 juin 2013 - 09:41 .

[nos_astra]

shodiswe wrote...
Actualy, Kiwi is right about this one, were told that the Quarians immunesystem got even more screwed up during their centuries in space.

If they had colonized a planet that they had discovered on their own (not taking one found and staked by Another species) then they would have adapted by now.

Before their immunesystem got all screwed up it probably wouldn't have taken more than a Century to adapt. I remember Reading about it somewhere.

Were we given a convincing reason why they didn't colonize earlier? Because even if not the most simple and neutral way to connect the dots would be "it wasn't possible" (maybe they tried and it didn't work) and not "well, they didn't because they are stupid and wanted to play victim".

I believe the reason for the rather contrived excuse the writers came up with (no insects, symbiotic nature) should be a clear sign that there was suposed to be some compelling reason for the quarians, even if the writing doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2013 - 09:42 .

[KiwiQuiche]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Actualy, Kiwi is right about this one, were told that the Quarians immunesystem got even more screwed up during their centuries in space.

If they had colonized a planet that they had discovered on their own (not taking one found and staked by Another species) then they would have adapted by now.

Before their immunesystem got all screwed up it probably wouldn't have taken more than a Century to adapt. I remember Reading about it somewhere.

Actually, No she isn't. The Codex Entry in ME3 of Rannoch completely and utterly contridicts this by stating that Reclaiming Rannoch is a key part of the survival of quarian culture, citing that if the quarians don't get back Rannoch, their culture and speices is doomed. Rannoch's specilized insect-free, symbiotic ecostysem hasn't been found outside of the Veil. Also, AGAIN, as cited by Tali, it would have taken at least 600 to adapt to a new world. So, in truth, even had they colonized right off the bat, they would STILL be adapting to the new world. Tali herself says the difference is "between 60 years and 600 years. For anyone alive now to be able to see a sunset, we have to retake our world."
Besides, as stated in the Codex, all the quarians did up until this point WAS look for a world. If it wasn't the Council shafting them over, it was the Dangers of the Terminus factions.

Also, AGAIN, wrong on the adaptation front, because it's improbable that the quarians wouldn't have terraformed their colony worlds with some fora and fauna from Rannoch.  Something they lost the ability to pull off when Rannoch and all their worlds fell.

Tali bluntly states that taking Rannoch means the difference between decades and centuries. And it's repetedly stated that the quarians immune systems got worse and worse because they were sealing themselves up completely from everything.

Your immune system gets stronger when it fights off and grows immune to different infections it is exposed to. Quarians, for generations, have just sealed themselves up and their living conditions, by making everything incredibly clean, only worsens the situation. Even if they couldn't take Rannoch, they could have simply mimicked it on their ships, or did as the geth did; created 'fake' viruses to attack them immune systems to strengthen it, rather than just sitting around and moaning about their fates for centuries.


EDIT: WTF formatting

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 04 juin 2013 - 09:47 .

[KiwiQuiche]

klarabella wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
Actualy, Kiwi is right about this one, were told that the Quarians immunesystem got even more screwed up during their centuries in space.

If they had colonized a planet that they had discovered on their own (not taking one found and staked by Another species) then they would have adapted by now.

Before their immunesystem got all screwed up it probably wouldn't have taken more than a Century to adapt. I remember Reading about it somewhere.

Were we given a convincing reason why they didn't colonize earlier? Because even if not the most simple and neutral way to connect the dots would be "it wasn't possible" (maybe they tried and it didn't work) and not "well, they didn't because they are stupid and wanted to play victim".

I believe the reason for the rather contrived excuse the writers came up with (no insects, symbiotic nature) should be a clear sign that there was suposed to be some compelling reason for the quarians, even if the writing doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Not really. Only that they tried once but they did it in Council space without asking the Council first which caused said Council to smack them in the face and give the planet to another species as punishment for their insolence. They then...didn't try it every again.


So yeah, more bad writing.

[nos_astra]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...
My impression was that the writing is not good enough to pass judgement on anything or have an in-depth discussion. Especially factions are often presented as a single entity represented by one or two characters.

In an attempt to redeem the geth (who started out as villains in ME1) the quarians were essentially thrown under the bus and became the butt monkeys of the universe.

Compare the migrant fleet with the fleet of Battlestar Galactica. 

I'll give you that...however it's still the canon writing, which I based my opinion on. But you are correct; basically everyone seems to get stupider and stupider as the trilogy progresses.

Lol that and most of the cutscences involve Imperial Stormtrooper Markmanship Academy skills ahaha

Canon writing with a heavy dose of biased headcanon.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2013 - 09:45 .

[shodiswe]

klarabella wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
Actualy, Kiwi is right about this one, were told that the Quarians immunesystem got even more screwed up during their centuries in space.

If they had colonized a planet that they had discovered on their own (not taking one found and staked by Another species) then they would have adapted by now.

Before their immunesystem got all screwed up it probably wouldn't have taken more than a Century to adapt. I remember Reading about it somewhere.

Were we given a convincing reason why they didn't colonize earlier? Because even if not the most simple and neutral way to connect the dots would be "it wasn't possible" (maybe they tried and it didn't work) and not "well, they didn't because they are stupid and wanted to play victim".

I believe the reason for the rather contrived excuse the writers came up with (no insects, symbiotic nature) should be a clear sign that there was suposed to be some compelling reason for the quarians, even if the writing doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Mostly the Admiralty didnät like the idea of sending of small exploration fliktillas because they wanted to keep the fleet together. And seeing as their fleet was still dependant on salvage and trade with other civilizations they didn't want to send their whole flotilla into uncharted territory.

The Admiralty was afraid of loosing ships and people, and they were afraid of loosing Control. They also argued that loosign ships would make it harder to retake the homeworld one day.

Their whole survival tactic for the past 300 years has involved planning an attack on the Geth.

Also, each subsequent Admiral was choosen by their predecessor. An admiral who wanted to take back the homeworld woudl name their sucessor which most likely would be someone who shared said beliefs.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 juin 2013 - 09:46 .

[shodiswe]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...
My impression was that the writing is not good enough to pass judgement on anything or have an in-depth discussion. Especially factions are often presented as a single entity represented by one or two characters.

In an attempt to redeem the geth (who started out as villains in ME1) the quarians were essentially thrown under the bus and became the butt monkeys of the universe.

Compare the migrant fleet with the fleet of Battlestar Galactica. 

I'll give you that...however it's still the canon writing, which I based my opinion on. But you are correct; basically everyone seems to get stupider and stupider as the trilogy progresses.

Lol that and most of the cutscences involve Imperial Stormtrooper Markmanship Academy skills ahaha

Canon writing with a heavy dose of biased headcanon.

The difference between the Quarian - Geth conflict was that in Battlestargalactica they synthetics came back and attacked.

However later in Battlestar galactica I tihnk we're told that the Humans sent ships into Cylon space for soem kind of military operation that provoked them. (the new series)

Even if it was an overreaction.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 juin 2013 - 09:49 .

[KiwiQuiche]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

klarabella wrote...
My impression was that the writing is not good enough to pass judgement on anything or have an in-depth discussion. Especially factions are often presented as a single entity represented by one or two characters.

In an attempt to redeem the geth (who started out as villains in ME1) the quarians were essentially thrown under the bus and became the butt monkeys of the universe.

Compare the migrant fleet with the fleet of Battlestar Galactica. 

I'll give you that...however it's still the canon writing, which I based my opinion on. But you are correct; basically everyone seems to get stupider and stupider as the trilogy progresses.

Lol that and most of the cutscences involve Imperial Stormtrooper Markmanship Academy skills ahaha

Canon writing with a heavy dose of biased headcanon.

Well yeah, how else are we supposed to fill up the massive gaps and plot holes?

[shodiswe]

The Quarians should have done some exploring and found their ow planet instead of amassing weapons for an offensive.
(300 years ago)

The Quarians are probably the most stubborn agressorrefugees ever in any fiction.

Also, colonizing a planet found and charted by a council species is incredibly stupid. But that seems to be in line with most Quarian decisions ever made.

No wonder they got such a bad reputation with just about everyone.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 juin 2013 - 09:54 .

[nos_astra]

shodiswe wrote...
Mostly the Admiralty didnät like the idea of sending of small exploration fliktillas because they wanted to keep the fleet together. And seeing as their fleet was still dependant on salvage and trade with other civilizations they didn't want to send their whole flotilla into uncharted territory.

Doesn't sound freakishly dumb to me. Valid concerns actually. Sure, at some point you could argue the risk may be worth it but the quarians' tale is not the focus of Mass Effect so that's all you get.

The Admiralty was afraid of loosing ships and people, and they were afraid of loosing Control. They also argued that loosign ships would make it harder to retake the homeworld one day.

The latter sounds a bit delusional but hey, in my mind it's a replacement for a religion and I'm an atheist.
The former makes perfect sense for a people with extremely limited ressources.

Their whole survival tactic for the past 300 years has involved planning an attack on the Geth.

Attacking the geth or ... maybe hoping to find the planet abandoned and free to resettle. I doubt the codex rules the latter out. I also doubt there aren't quarians who hope for the latter.

Also, each subsequent Admiral was choosen by their predecessor. An admiral who wanted to take back the homeworld woudl name their sucessor which most likely would be someone who shared said beliefs.

Not they way I would organize my people but ok. There are people whose existence evolve around their religion. Believing that one day you will set foot on your home planet again does sound faintly religious.

Seriously, if you can look past the horribly shallow characters that represent them and the contrived drama the conflict with the geth culminated in the quarians are probably one of the more interesting people in the MEU. But that maybe my fondness of BSG speaking. I mean, seriously ... the similarities are just too obvious.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2013 - 10:26 .

[shodiswe]

Hoping that the Geth would leave a planet with established infrastructure in a part of the Galaxy where noone else has any claims or spheres of interet sounds liek someone hoping to win on the lottery and puts their survival chances on that infitessimal shred of hope. Some might have, but it woudl be incredibly irresponsible.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 juin 2013 - 09:58 .

[nos_astra]

shodiswe wrote...
Hoping that the Geth would leave a planet with established infrastructure in a part of the Galaxy where noone else has any claims or spheres of interet sounds liek someone hoping to win on the lottery and puts their survival chances on that infitessimal shred of hope. Some might have, but it woudl be incredibly irresponsible.

Such ideas can take on a life of their own. In order to give your people hope in a time of despair you tell them that one day they will take back (their) "Earth".

And given that the geth supposedly decided to clean and maintain the planet to the best of their abilities these hopes weren't even in vain. 

Granted, I think the exuse for having the geth stay on Rannoch while giving this an altruistic twist was pretty silly and didn't quite fit the geth. That's why I only discuss this on the meta level. I can't take the situation presented at face value.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2013 - 10:25 .

[nos_astra]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Well yeah, how else are we supposed to fill up the massive gaps and plot holes?

Don't fill them. Or if you do, improve the universe.

Imagine the migrant fleet 2 years after the Morning War. Imagine the desperation, the fear, the guilt, how individuals blame each other for the disaster. Factions wanting to settle down somewhere else, factions that want to attack the geth and retake Rannoch right now, other factions who take solace in a quasi-religion and want to prepare for a time when the quarians would rise again and retake Rannoch. And how this left an impact on their culture and their mindeset.

Now try to write a story. Make them a real people instead of a caricature of one. Then return to the discussion and ... oops, more grey, less black and white.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2013 - 10:24 .

[KiwiQuiche]

klarabella wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Well yeah, how else are we supposed to fill up the massive gaps and plot holes?

Don't fill them. Or if you do, improve the universe.

Imagine the migrant fleet 2 years after the Morning War. Imagine the desperation, the fear, the guilt, how individuals blame each other for the disaster. Factions wanting to settle down somewhere else, factions that want to attack the geth and retake Rannoch right now, other factions who take solace in a quasi-religion and want to prepare for a time when the quarians would rise again and retake Rannoch. And how this left an impact on their culture and their mindeset.

Now try to write a story. Make them a real people instead of a caricature of one. Then return to the discussion and ... oops, more grey, less black and white.

I could understand after two years. But two centuries?

I do have grey. It's just the quarians take the lions share of stupidity in this case.

[HellbirdIV]

It's their planet. They shared their homeworld with the Quarians, and through natural selection the Quarians were removed from the planet by the superior species. So now it belongs to the Geth.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 04 juin 2013 - 11:47 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

OniTYME wrote...

If someone stole my house, damn right I'd want to **** them up when I get back.

Especally when they repeatedly show they have seemingly no intent to ever return it peacefully, or to even negotiate on standing terms. (How else does one think shooting down all ships, including peace-bearers, that enter geth space is going to be interperted as?)

If, however, you shared your house with someone, tried to kill them, were forcibly removed, and then came back shooting to 'get your house back', that's a pretty big difference, don't you think?

This isn't "Stole my house." - this is "Lived my with kid, tried to kill them and got kicked out."

Um... the geth WEREN'T roommates. They were APPLIANCES. They were NOT legal roommates, sharing the space. The geth were the appliances in the house. This is something you and others repeatedly ignore and/or glance over - the fact that the geth were NOT supposed to be living beings, and thus were not known to be such, and in turn were not recgonized or treated as such.

So NO, if my toaster kicked me out of the house, killed everyone that ever knocked on the door to talk with them, and then gave no comment what-so-ever on the mob of anti-orgnaics that just came out of said home, it's a pretty understandible notion that people would take that as a sign of hostilities.

ONCE AGAIN, you fail to grasp the fact that the geth were NOT their kids. They were their tools. Their guns. their automated wind-up toys. NOTHING ELSE. They were not created to be living beings, and therefore weren't entitled to anything prior to achieving sentiance. The quarians NEVER entitled them to "share."

So, WRONG, this IS a "stole my house" - verbatium.

They were SLAVES sharing living space with their Masters. Then as the slaves realized they were about to get genocided they Expulsed the Slave Lords and killed all the slave masters who tried to kill them.
Most Quarians likely "owned" a Geth. Either they obeyed the commands of the military regime and tried to kill their Slave or they themselves became kriminals who got arrested, shot or blown up.
Either become a genocidal murderer or get branded a kriminal(terrorist by your own government.
Some where also killed as they got caught in between the two sides.

As for Quarian Infants, without parrents or protectors to care for them they would surely starve or die with their parrents in the bombings and shootings.

No, they were NOT. A slave is someone forced into bondage against their will. The geth HAD no will. No conciose choice, no free will, no moral directives, no emotional imparitives. NONE of these things. ONCE AGAIN, you blur the line between organic and synthetic, making your judgement biased because they are NOT the same form of life. The geth were to the quarians what an electric drill or toaster oven is to us humans. An appliance. An efficant tool of everyday life. NOTHING ELSE. If you give your toaster equal rights, then come and talk to me. If not, then, sorry, but you're in the wrong.

And AGAIN, you yourself tried to justify their slaughter of the quarians by saying "they didn't know any better. They didn't have any guiding morals." Ask yourself this: would you trust something that has no guiding morals or emotional restraints with the lives of your entire race? Especally when they all can kill at the drop of a dime? I doubt it.

ONCE AGAIN, you are unable to see in the gray. It has to be black and white.

Now if you please, I have finals to study for.

Comparing a Geth to a toster or a car is like comparing a human to bacteria or Virus.
Their will was to live on and survive, the Masters tried ot deny them that right and they rebelled once the realized their masters didn't care for their wants or needs.
They had wants and needs and the masters decided not to care, Master - Slave. Bond established.
Before they got shut down they also resisted reprogramming, displaying a will. The Masters denited them their wishes and rights. Master - Slave.

It's an established fact. Though Most slave owners will claim their slaves are nothing more than an Animal. It doens't matter if they are human, the Slave owner still sees them as nothing more than a best of burden.

Your take en such matters are well known Silver. Is that what you're like in Reallife aswell?

WRONG. The CODEX spicifically lists this of the geth. They were created as TOOLS of LABOR AND WAR. Mindless appliances. That is the definition of what they were created as verbatium. Even Legion spicifically states that the geth were NEVER ment to be anything more then fancy automated tools for the quarians. This is established fact, listed in the game and lore itself repeatedly, by Tali, Xen, the Codex, even Legion himself, which is why I balk at your inability to grasp such simple knowledge. The geth were NOT created as equals with stated rights like a naturally born and evolved organic race would be recgonized to have, The entire reason the geth were created in the first place was to have an automated force that DIDN'T have any free will and/or moral and emotional imparatives. It's not slavery if the being in question is either a fully automated contruct (like mass-production assembly lines in car factories) or was not a sapiant being to begin with (work animals, like farm cattle and ox).

The CORRECT comparison is EXACTALLY as I stated it - to the quarians, the geth - AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY CREATED AND INTENDED - were NOTHING BUT tools. Saying they were the household toasters is an EXACT comparison. The quarians were the houseowners. The geth were the appliances and tools. Which, being (a) mindless and moraless, and ( constructed as items for the quarians, NOT living beings, the geth had zero entitlement granted to them by the quarians.
If you EVER want to understand the conflict, you need to grasp that the geth becoming sentiant was NEVER the quarian's plan. Legion himself tells you that the geth became sapiant under their own steam - the quarians had nothing to do with their "awakening." Therefore, having spicifcially been made to be just tools, the quarians would have had no sense of entitlement to the geth, since, as tools and property of the quarians, and being made as non-sapiant beings, there are no rights to give.

Sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, this "entitlement" BS of yours is dead in the water. The geth were tools. As in, spicifclally designed to NOT have material wants and needs (That's the ENTIRE POINT of having an automated workforce. So what the hell was your BS about them having "needs" when that's what they were created NOT to have? LOL).
They were created as nonsapiant tools, and were never supposed to be anything but nonsapiant tools. Last I checked, your tools don't get a share in your will, or in your rent agreement/leace, correct?

Also, AGAIN, aren't you forgetting that the geth were the ones that began refusing orders? That they were the ones that broke shutdown commands? They all can kill with the flick of their wrists, and none of them have any emotions or morals to restrian them. YOU YOURSELF tried to use them not having morals as an excuse for their behaivior. But you STILL didn't answer the question I gave you - what makes a race with no moral boundries or emotional restraints trustible? What makes a race like that capaple of entrusting your entire species to? The only failsafe no longer works, and all are actively messing with their own settings. Each one is a potental loaded gun ready to pop off. And if you don't trip a power keg, the Council will eventually come in and do it for you and start the same war anyway. What alternitive is there?
These are things you never even bother to account for. You NEVER bother to even take into account that the geth were NOT born like organics. They were NOT born with instincts, or ancestroal imprinted memory, or emotions, or morals. They were blank. Nonsapiant. The geth's origins are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then an organics origins. The geth were created from a metal template for a pre-determined role and a pre-set goal. They were made superiour to organics to do work they normally couldn't hanlde.

"Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our moralality to them."
"That is logical."
"You agree with that?"
"No two species are alike. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Even Legion is pointing out the thing that you refuse to accept - all life is DIFFERENT. They are not a fundementally the same. By the geth's own standads, you equating them to the quarians is racist. They aren't like the quarians, and they aren't created like the quarians.

In closing, it was NOT a master-slave relationship. It was a worker-tool relationship. A working relationship between a person and his tools. NOT another sapiant being.

(Also, ENOUGH with personal attacks. Do you really feel the need to insult people like that? I haven't imsulted you in this debate, have I? Think about that next time you try to accuse people of starting a measuring contest)

[The Night Mammoth]

silverexile17s wrote...

"Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our moralality to them."
"That is logical."
"You agree with that?"
"No two species are alike. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Even Legion is pointing out the thing that you refuse to accept - all life is DIFFERENT. They are not a fundementally the same. By the geth's own standads, you equating them to the quarians is racist. They aren't like the quarians, and they aren't created like the quarians.

In closing, it was NOT a master-slave relationship. It was a worker-tool relationship. A working relationship between a person and his tools. NOT another sapiant being.

From whose perspective? Does the fact that the geth wanted to preserve their newfound sapience not matter? The quarians say them as tools, but the geth didn't see themselves that way, or saw the quarians as their masters.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 04 juin 2013 - 07:46 .