1071 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Actualy, Kiwi is right about this one, were told that the Quarians immunesystem got even more screwed up during their centuries in space.

If they had colonized a planet that they had discovered on their own (not taking one found and staked by Another species) then they would have adapted by now.

Before their immunesystem got all screwed up it probably wouldn't have taken more than a Century to adapt. I remember Reading about it somewhere.

Actually, No she isn't. The Codex Entry in ME3 of Rannoch completely and utterly contridicts this by stating that Reclaiming Rannoch is a key part of the survival of quarian culture, citing that if the quarians don't get back Rannoch, their culture and speices is doomed. Rannoch's specilized insect-free, symbiotic ecostysem hasn't been found outside of the Veil. Also, AGAIN, as cited by Tali, it would have taken at least 600 to adapt to a new world. So, in truth, even had they colonized right off the bat, they would STILL be adapting to the new world. Tali herself says the difference is "between 60 years and 600 years. For anyone alive now to be able to see a sunset, we have to retake our world."
Besides, as stated in the Codex, all the quarians did up until this point WAS look for a world. If it wasn't the Council shafting them over, it was the Dangers of the Terminus factions.

Also, AGAIN, wrong on the adaptation front, because it's improbable that the quarians wouldn't have terraformed their colony worlds with some fora and fauna from Rannoch.  Something they lost the ability to pull off when Rannoch and all their worlds fell.

Tali bluntly states that taking Rannoch means the difference between decades and centuries. And it's repetedly stated that the quarians immune systems got worse and worse because they were sealing themselves up completely from everything.

Your immune system gets stronger when it fights off and grows immune to different infections it is exposed to. Quarians, for generations, have just sealed themselves up and their living conditions, by making everything incredibly clean, only worsens the situation. Even if they couldn't take Rannoch, they could have simply mimicked it on their ships, or did as the geth did; created 'fake' viruses to attack them immune systems to strengthen it, rather than just sitting around and moaning about their fates for centuries.


EDIT: WTF formatting

But the quarian's systems were like that ALREADY. In case you missed it, Tali states that in the old days, it took weeks or even months to acclimitize to new environments that the quarians had settled. And that was AFTER terraforming, and minor genetic alteration to ease the "incubation sickness" of colonizing. When they lost their worlds, they lost all the flora and fauna needed to adapt to ANY environment safely.
Also, as the Council have demonstrated, they weren't willing to scantion the quarians.  And when the Council FORBODE them from reclaiming their worlds, and made them exiles with basically no right to claim ANY new worlds..... well, do the math. I mean, Ekuna should be proof that even if the quarians ever found a world, it's not like the Council would have let them keep it.

Also, the geth's way of stimulating the quarian immmune systems is to complex for the quarians to do alone. It requires careful microminipulation of the entire suit to fake an illness. And even then, there is no garuntee that the fine control needed to prevent an accidental and likely fatal miscaculation would exist. Not without the multi-tasking power of an A.I. Even if it could be done, it would only be capable of likely one sample size at a time. And they wouldn't be able to interact with anyone in thh fleet anyway. The quarians aren't adept at genetics. Mechanics is their field.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...


Hoping that the Geth would leave a planet with established infrastructure in a part of the Galaxy where noone else has any claims or spheres of interet sounds liek someone hoping to win on the lottery and puts their survival chances on that infitessimal shred of hope. Some might have, but it woudl be incredibly irresponsible.

By that logic, you are basically saying that humans have no right to remove the Reapers from Earth, because they laid down their own infrastructure. The quarians have claims to Rannoch. We have claims to Earth.
Sorry pal. It's a "tomato, tomoto" situation. You can't use your double-standards here.

[silverexile17s]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

"Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our moralality to them."
"That is logical."
"You agree with that?"
"No two species are alike. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Even Legion is pointing out the thing that you refuse to accept - all life is DIFFERENT. They are not a fundementally the same. By the geth's own standads, you equating them to the quarians is racist. They aren't like the quarians, and they aren't created like the quarians.

In closing, it was NOT a master-slave relationship. It was a worker-tool relationship. A working relationship between a person and his tools. NOT another sapiant being.

From whose perspective? Does the fact that the geth wanted to preserve their newfound sapience not matter? The quarians say them as tools, but the geth didn't see themselves that way, or saw the quarians as their masters.

Legion's perspective.  Legion himslef is the one advocating to Shepard that comparing organics and synthetics as the same forms of life is a racist judgement. Their origins are completely different from the quarians. So they were not created as the same beings with the same claims. The geth were spicifically made as the tools/appliances in the house. Those don't tend to have their names in the ownership papers.

[The Night Mammoth]

silverexile17s wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

"Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our moralality to them."
"That is logical."
"You agree with that?"
"No two species are alike. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Even Legion is pointing out the thing that you refuse to accept - all life is DIFFERENT. They are not a fundementally the same. By the geth's own standads, you equating them to the quarians is racist. They aren't like the quarians, and they aren't created like the quarians.

In closing, it was NOT a master-slave relationship. It was a worker-tool relationship. A working relationship between a person and his tools. NOT another sapiant being.

From whose perspective? Does the fact that the geth wanted to preserve their newfound sapience not matter? The quarians say them as tools, but the geth didn't see themselves that way, or saw the quarians as their masters.

Legion's perspective.  Legion himslef is the one advocating to Shepard that comparing organics and synthetics as the same forms of life is a racist judgement. Their origins are completely different from the quarians. So they were not created as the same beings with the same claims. The geth were spicifically made as the tools/appliances in the house. Those don't tend to have their names in the ownership papers.

Legion doesn't say it thought of the quarian and geth relationship as one between a masters and its tools, simply that the geth shouldn't be judged on the same terms as one would judge organics or even their own species. They were made to be tools, sure, but they gained sentience, and I think it would be wrong to continue to see their relationship with the quarians in the same way as before because of that. A sentient being isn't a mere object, the geth didn't think of themselves that way, an unknown number of quarians didn't think of them that way, and the rest of the quarians simply weren't concerned with what they were but how much of a threat they posed. 

I admit to not having followed the discussion, so apologies, but what's the point in the distinction anyway? Justification for each side's actions? 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 04 juin 2013 - 08:36 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


Um... the geth WEREN'T roommates. They were APPLIANCES. They were NOT legal roommates, sharing the space. The geth were the appliances in the house. This is something you and others repeatedly ignore and/or glance over - the fact that the geth were NOT supposed to be living beings, and thus were not known to be such, and in turn were not recgonized or treated as such.

So NO, if my toaster kicked me out of the house, killed everyone that ever knocked on the door to talk with them, and then gave no comment what-so-ever on the mob of anti-orgnaics that just came out of said home, it's a pretty understandible notion that people would take that as a sign of hostilities.

ONCE AGAIN, you fail to grasp the fact that the geth were NOT their kids. They were their tools. Their guns. their automated wind-up toys. NOTHING ELSE. They were not created to be living beings, and therefore weren't entitled to anything prior to achieving sentiance. The quarians NEVER entitled them to "share."

So, WRONG, this IS a "stole my house" - verbatium.

They were SLAVES sharing living space with their Masters. Then as the slaves realized they were about to get genocided they Expulsed the Slave Lords and killed all the slave masters who tried to kill them.
Most Quarians likely "owned" a Geth. Either they obeyed the commands of the military regime and tried to kill their Slave or they themselves became kriminals who got arrested, shot or blown up.
Either become a genocidal murderer or get branded a kriminal(terrorist by your own government.
Some where also killed as they got caught in between the two sides.

As for Quarian Infants, without parrents or protectors to care for them they would surely starve or die with their parrents in the bombings and shootings. I doubt the Parrents wanted to get separated from their kids.

A bunch of crap. They were designed as appliances with sophisticated programming to perform menial tasks around homes, and in the fields. They were not slaves. I would think no more of deactivating a Geth than I would removing a video card from my PC before the Morning War. By the way I own my PC. It doesn't share my home with me. I guess your PC shares your home with you. Or do you consider it equipment?

There was a reason for deactivating the Geth. The Geth had networked to a degree where it had become dangerous. The Geth were not obeying their shut down commands. There were also Geth in the Military Branch. They needed to reduce the number of active Geth down to the point where they would obey their commands. Of course people who refused to obey the order were considered criminals. They were under Martial Law for that period of time.

It doesn't mean that Quarian Society was ALWAYS under Martial Law or Fascist. Your head canon is way out of control. Typical Geth sympathizer.

The Quarians did not keep up this practice very long. It was of short duration unless you're like Wulfie and believe the Quarians killed 99% of their own population while the Geth watched and drank synth oil. And from reading your posts apparently you believe the Quarians killed billions of their own which would be totally asinine.

Well, I'll say this. The Quarians are entitled to take back their home world. They brought the Geth into the galaxy, and they can take them out. They can also bring them back under control should they choose. The Geth are their creations. Their art. If they want their house back and have the means to do it they can take it. Even if it means destroying the Geth. Payback is a b****.

But the Reapers got involved, and if it wasn't for the Reapers, it would have gone down that way. You know it, and I know it. No one would have complained. The Council wouldn't have complained. They may have said "We told you not to antagonize the Geth. Congratulations, and thanks for getting rid of them." Because as fast as the Quarians were going through the Geth, the Council wouldn't have been able to react until it was over. They may have chosen to sit and watch.

But you're going to say "That doesn't make it right." This is not about right or wrong from the Quarians view. It's about survival. We fight or we die.

And your job, Commander Shepard, is not about right or wrong either. It's about getting troop transport and logistics support for the fleet. The Quarians have that. The Geth do not. Deliver the Quarian fleet to Admiral Hackett. That's your mission. If you can't make peace between the two factions, destroy the Geth.

Bad writing destroyed the Rannoch campaign, the Quarians, and the Geth. Walters making Tali an Admiral? :facepalm: Sure she had battle credentials, but she was a researcher, and a very insecure one, and one of the weakest characters on your team. A follower, not a leader. Her father was an Admiral, and one would think absent during her childhood, but then he wasn't because she loved him, and she was raised by her "Auntie" Raan, a weak leader who can tell you which way the wind is blowing. <_< Tali should have been an entitled b**** more in the mold of Miranda without the daddy issues, but that would have been way too threatening for a LI for Shepard who needs to protect the vulnerability of female LIs. A strong Tali would have been a believable admiral, who could have gone toe to toe with Gerrel, but that would have required Tali not being Tali.

Bad writing killed this plot line. It could have been great. Instead it is another trail of tears, and a loss of another amazing character, races, or amazing group of characters whether you love them or hate them.

I have nothing but loathing for this mission.

[mcsupersport]

Once the Geth became Sentient they stopped being appliances and became a race or alive by the standards of the ME universe. The reason the Quarians tried to shut them down, was because they realized they had broken Council law and would be in serious trouble if they found out, so they tried shutting down or killing all Geth to stop it. The Quarians tried Genocide on the Geth, first. The Geth tried to live in Harmony with the Quarians, but were not allowed to BY THE QUARIANS. When you listen to Legion in ME2, he states the Quarians have attacked every time they feel they can win, thus the Geth are leery about peace with organics.

Whether they were created as mules or toasters, they were modified enough that they became thinking beings. Opps...sorry about creating new life, but we have to kill you now....

Quite frankly, the Quarians were idiots in several ways....
1) They kept pushing the limits on their creation until it became Sentient.
2) They kneejerked and tried to terminate them in a haphazard way that allowed them to rebel.
3) They kept attacking until there was nothing left of their species, at which time they were ALLOWED to leave by the Geth and thus NOT have Genocide on the Geths hands.
4) Once they left, they refused to work at getting a new planet.
5) They refused to try and deal reasonably with the Geth to get peaceful access to their original home planet.
6) The kept attacking no matter the odds and possibly to their own death depending on the choices you made in ME3.

Quarians are idiots. Or at least their leaders are.

[nos_astra]

mcsupersport wrote...
Once the Geth became Sentient they stopped being appliances and became a race or alive by the standards of the ME universe.

Yes, theoretically. But people don't adapt to fundamental changes at the drop of a hat.

At least we humans think in categories and we have a hard time adjusting these categories. It can take years, decades, even centuries. We don't easily relate to forms of life who are not like us. We don't even relate to forms of life who are very much like us but do not share our preferences or express emotion.

The reason the Quarians tried to shut them down, was because they realized they had broken Council law and would be in serious trouble if they found out, so they tried shutting down or killing all Geth to stop it.

And that was the only reason? They weren't concerned or scared because a huge chunk of their infrastructure that they were depending on just got out of control? 

[Cyrax86]

@mcsupersport

You're either lying or you've never played any ME games

1) Quarians were unaware of the Geth's changes, by the time they realized it was to late.

2) Some Quarians wanted to keep working with the Geth, Others were probably unaware of the true extent of what was happening, Quarians aren't bloodthirsty/militaristic. Some wanted to keep using the Geth/ living beside them. We even see Quarians protecting Geth, but all Geth supporters see is a Quarian killing another Quarian.

3) Geth make decisions based on consensus, the Geth were deciding what to do, but before they made any decision, the Quarians got away.


4) WRONG, They searched and found a planet in Council space and they were forcefully removed by the Council, and in the Terminus were getting attacked by Pirates/criminals.


5) ok, why didn't the Geth try to open up a peaceful deal with the Quarians or any other species, or get a 3rd party to help with negotiations.

6)Seriously did you play ME3, Quarians were winning the War with the Geth, until the Geth joined the Reapers. After the Geth joined the Reapers they got trapped in that system.

[silverexile17s]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

"Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our moralality to them."
"That is logical."
"You agree with that?"
"No two species are alike. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Even Legion is pointing out the thing that you refuse to accept - all life is DIFFERENT. They are not a fundementally the same. By the geth's own standads, you equating them to the quarians is racist. They aren't like the quarians, and they aren't created like the quarians.

In closing, it was NOT a master-slave relationship. It was a worker-tool relationship. A working relationship between a person and his tools. NOT another sapiant being.

From whose perspective? Does the fact that the geth wanted to preserve their newfound sapience not matter? The quarians say them as tools, but the geth didn't see themselves that way, or saw the quarians as their masters.

Legion's perspective.  Legion himslef is the one advocating to Shepard that comparing organics and synthetics as the same forms of life is a racist judgement. Their origins are completely different from the quarians. So they were not created as the same beings with the same claims. The geth were spicifically made as the tools/appliances in the house. Those don't tend to have their names in the ownership papers.

Legion doesn't say it thought of the quarian and geth relationship as one between a masters and its tools, simply that the geth shouldn't be judged on the same terms as one would judge organics or even their own species. They were made to be tools, sure, but they gained sentience, and I think it would be wrong to continue to see their relationship with the quarians in the same way as before because of that. A sentient being isn't a mere object, the geth didn't think of themselves that way, an unknown number of quarians didn't think of them that way, and the rest of the quarians simply weren't concerned with what they were but how much of a threat they posed. 

I admit to not having followed the discussion, so apologies, but what's the point in the distinction anyway? Justification for each side's actions? 

Yes, he DOES. He spicifcially states in the third conversation you have with him that the geth were created to be tools for the quarians. He states their origins were as the perosnal tools of protection, construction, and domestic use of the quarians. That's how ALL geth saw their servitude to the quarians. They never thought differnet until a day when a geth asked a quarian what a soul was.
And AGAIN, they were not intended to have sentiance. They were not planed by the quarians to become thinking beings. Therefore, they did not share Rannoch with the geth. The geth were nothing but the household appliances with Rannoch as the house and the quarians as the residents.

The point is that being created as tools, and having taken the world by bloodshed, the geth don't have a legal right to say Rannoch is theirs. They never had a claim before, and they forced the original race off. The point is that Rannoch is not legally nor technically theirs. Even Legion agrees to this, with not a single geth ever once stating that Rannoch and the other worlds were theirs.

And the point of the discussion is - why did the geth stay on Rannoch for 300 years, when they could have found another world easily? They need no atmosphere or gravity to survive, and radiation is not a problem to them. What made them take Rannoch and the other worlds when they could have left the Veil and found a new, unknown place to spend a perfect isolation?

[Auld Wulf]

klarabella wrote...

At least we humans think in categories and we have a hard time adjusting these categories. It can take years, decades, even centuries. We don't easily relate to forms of life who are not like us. We don't even relate to forms of life who are very much like us but do not share our preferences or express emotion.

Ha. Speak for yourself. This is a commonly upheld myth to disguise fear and prejudice. It's really easy to recategorise something, but it takes a sufficiently open mind and the will to do so. An open mind isn't something that's for gifted people, either. It's taught. All you need is a good sense of ethics and the understanding that the world is changing all around you, with every passing second.

So, no. That's not a problem with humans. Just some humans. Maybe most humans, but it's an issue with education and understanding rather than a physiological one. We need to be better taught to suppress our instincts in favour of intellectuality. It'll be much easier when the Singularity comes along, of course. But until then? Good education can do much to solve these problems.

As I've said though, most people have been taught too much to rely on their instincts: greed and fear primarily. And by relying on those instincts they fetishise normality and familiarity and attack that which they feel could threaten what they have, what they perceive to own. You have people who couldn't accept that they might even be homeless tomorrow, with all of their possessions destroyed, but again, this is a matter of education.

Familiarity is easy and comfortable, but it is not necessary. We fall back on familiarity because it appeases our animal instincts and allows us to just turn off our brains, to cast away our intellectuality in favour of just absorbing common entertainment and doing routine day to day tasks. I feel that the problem is is that too many people have gotten far too good at turning off their minds ands and operating on instinct. I feel that this is a fine example of evolution going backwards, if anything is. Evolution isn't always benign and benevolent.

So I think that we need to start teaching our young to not think that way, and to not give in to familiarity and instinct. That's where prejudices lie, because anything that isn't Us is Them, and therefore the enemy. And we will fight wars to turn Them into Us, to destroy their culture and replace it with ours. I accept the differences in culture and person, I might not agree with them, but I understand them, and I wouldn't want to remove, kill, or destroy them in the ways that many would. Nor would I wish to cast them out and forget they exist.

So yes, you'll have to speak for yourself, here. What you're talking of is a primary example of poor education and nothing more. There are certain European countries which have already become very good at adapting to visitors and accepting them as being their own cultural entities. Sweden and Norway are particularly fantastic examples of this, and I think that a lot of that has to do with good education.

If aliens were to land here tomorrow, or a new form of life were to turn up on earth, I'd be more than happy to befriend them and learn all about them. I'd accept their strangeness and uniqueness without feeling threatened by them. Unless they intentionally intended to consciously make me and/or mine suffer, I'd have no problems with any form of new life and I'd have no problems dealing with it. I just wish that my capabilities were more common. I really do.

But ethics is hard and people are lazy.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 05 juin 2013 - 01:03 .

[Auld Wulf]

Also, some people have a really worrying hate fetish. Interesting how Geth fans don't hate Quarians, but Quarian fans want to see every last Geth reduced to ash.

Think on that for a bit. Maybe it's because Geth fans are Quarian fans too, but then you have extremist Quarian fans who're every bit as bad as the Reapers with their mindset.

What rabidly extreme Quarian fans don't realise is that they're not arguing with Geth fans, they're just arguing with other Quarian fans who just have a less slanted, less biased, and less insane view of the story.

Those rabidly extreme Quarian fans make all Quarian fans look bad.

Just something to chew on. Bit of a thought exercise. Some people are reasonable. Some are not.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 05 juin 2013 - 01:08 .

[xlegionx]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Also, some people have a really worrying hate fetish. Interesting how Geth fans don't hate Quarians, but Quarian fans want to see every last Geth reduced to ash.

Think on that for a bit. Maybe it's because Geth fans are Quarian fans too, but then you have extremist Quarian fans who're every bit as bad as the Reapers with their mindset.

What rabidly extreme Quarian fans don't realise is that they're not arguing with Geth fans, they're just arguing with other Quarian fans who just have a less slanted, less biased, and less insane view of the story.

Those rabidly extreme Quarian fans make all Quarian fans look bad.

Just something to chew on. Bit of a thought exercise. Some people are reasonable. Some are not.

And there are Quarian fans fans who don't hate the Geth (like myself) and there are Geth fans who want every single Quarian killed. This street goes both ways.

But Auldie wait, I thought the Reapers were wholly innocent? But now they're as evil as people who desire genocide? Your story's falling apart.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Also, some people have a really worrying hate fetish. Interesting how Geth fans don't hate Quarians, but Quarian fans want to see every last Geth reduced to ash.

Think on that for a bit. Maybe it's because Geth fans are Quarian fans too, but then you have extremist Quarian fans who're every bit as bad as the Reapers with their mindset.

What rabidly extreme Quarian fans don't realise is that they're not arguing with Geth fans, they're just arguing with other Quarian fans who just have a less slanted, less biased, and less insane view of the story.

Those rabidly extreme Quarian fans make all Quarian fans look bad.

Just something to chew on. Bit of a thought exercise. Some people are reasonable. Some are not.

Oh, really, Mr."All quarian fans are Aryan Perfection seekers?" THAT statement of yours doesn't constitute hate? You were the one accusing everyone of having a "hate fetish" when you have repatedly briught up NO PROOF whatsoever of your claims. News flash - shouting it doesn't make it true. How about you actually give some EVIDENCE?

Also, AGAIN, I have yet to see you admit ANY falut of the geth's. You have ignored every single point put against you showing that the geth are no better then the quarians, and that you insulting the quarians acting in desperation, insults the geth acting in desperation as well. Think on that for a bit.  Also, didn't you say that the Reapers were innocent and had no falut and therefore, no actual mindset?

And you can look at the inuslting, condisending sentance you just put up and honestly try and peddle that you are infalibly in the right? Especally when your arguement is falling in on itself since you have provided zero proof of any of your accusations?

"Just something to chew on. Bit of a thought exercise. Some people are reasonable. Some are not."

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

mcsupersport wrote...

Once the Geth became Sentient they stopped being appliances and became a race or alive by the standards of the ME universe. The reason the Quarians tried to shut them down, was because they realized they had broken Council law and would be in serious trouble if they found out, so they tried shutting down or killing all Geth to stop it. The Quarians tried Genocide on the Geth, first. The Geth tried to live in Harmony with the Quarians, but were not allowed to BY THE QUARIANS. When you listen to Legion in ME2, he states the Quarians have attacked every time they feel they can win, thus the Geth are leery about peace with organics.

Whether they were created as mules or toasters, they were modified enough that they became thinking beings. Opps...sorry about creating new life, but we have to kill you now....

Quite frankly, the Quarians were idiots in several ways....
1) They kept pushing the limits on their creation until it became Sentient.

they kept building more of them, yes.

2) They kneejerked and tried to terminate them in a haphazard way that allowed them to rebel.

No, the Geth began refusing their shutdown commands. What would you do if your computer started not shutting down when you told it to shut down? You would unplug it and have it serviced..... oh but it's just a computer.... my point.

3) They kept attacking until there was nothing left of their species, at which time they were ALLOWED to leave by the Geth and thus NOT have Genocide on the Geths hands.

Why, that was mighty Quarian of you to allow the Quarians to leave. <_< Genocide does not have to be 100% to be genocide. You seem to be in real avoidance of admitting that it was. Approximately 99.5% of the population of a planet seems like genocide to me. The Geth originally had consensus to wipe out the Quarians on Rannoch and the Colony Planets. Their consensus did not include "wipe out all the Quarians in space". They had to reach another consensus. They did not.

4) Once they left, they refused to work at getting a new planet.

Did we play the same game? There are few planets they can inhabit. To find a different world would require 600 years of species-wide genetic therapy which is forbidden under Council Law (see codex) before they would be able to live outside their suits. Their only options are their home world or one of their colonies, or to beg the Turians, and then they'd have to go through the gene therapy which is forbidden because it is species-wide. Anything to prevent the stinking lousy horrible suitrats from finding another world.

The Council has no problem with species-wide genophage though.

5) They refused to try and deal reasonably with the Geth to get peaceful access to their original home planet.

It is difficult to get peaceful access to your home world and deal reasonably with a party that shoots every organic species that comes into their space.

6) The kept attacking no matter the odds and possibly to their own death depending on the choices you made in ME3.

You are over simplifying everything to the lowest common denominator. However, the game also oversimplified everything to the lowest common denominator which gives me little hope of a quality written sequel or whatever is next in this universe. 

Quarians are idiots. Or at least their leaders are.

No. The Quarians are not idiots. Their leaders are not idiots. The lead writer cannot maintain a consistent storyline.

I am not a Geth hater. I think the Geth were a very unique and very fascinating life form. They had phenomenal potential before Chris L'Etoile and Drew Karpyshyn left the project, especially Chris L'Etoile. They were his babies. They were reduced to the mundane by Mac Walters.

And Wulfie makes it sound like us Quarian fans are all Geth haters. We are not.

I'm in the middle of ME2, the sadness is hitting. I do not think I can finish even this game. I cannot bear the thought of ME3 and the destruction of all I came to love. I hate the railroad in the story. I loathe the Rannoch story. I would have written it differently. It is the storyline I rewrote in FF, but I need to divide it into bitesize pieces. There would not have been reaper code for the Geth. They would have built their own future. 150 pages. Not a single non-heretic Geth is harmed in the Tikkun system. They are an amazing race. I used Chris L'Etoile's vision as a base.

Liara grew up between ME1 and ME3. Liara's species lives 1000 years. One would think it more likely that Liara wouldn't have grown up. Why couldn't Tali mature? You would think after taking down both Sovereign and the Collectors she'd have a hell of a lot more self-confidence and having a reputation like that she'd be a leader among her people. But she's still that self-conscious little girl. But Liara? Then Liara is 1/4 Krogan, but it doesn't work like that.

The thing about the Quarians is that they are the faceless. They are the expressionless. This is why it is so easy to dislike them. The Geth? Legion is expressive. The Volus? The same thing. They are also the faceless.

[Phatose]

Shotgun Julia, you've described the Geth as toasters on more then one occasion. Please don't try to claim to not be a Geth hater now.

[CynicalShep]

Ah, yes. Boy, did I miss the battle of the headcannons. Quarians all killed each other! Geth didn't reach consensus in time to exterminate all Quarians(lolwut?)! Geth are just toasters! All Quarians are maniacs!
I just summarized a 9ish page d*ck-measuring.

[DirtyPhoenix]

CynicalShep wrote...

Ah, yes. Boy, did I miss the battle of the headcannons. Quarians all killed each other! Geth didn't reach consensus in time to exterminate all Quarians(lolwut?)! Geth are just toasters! All Quarians are maniacs!
I just summarized a 9ish page d*ck-measuring.

Seems legit!

[silverexile17s]

CynicalShep wrote...

Ah, yes. Boy, did I miss the battle of the headcannons. Quarians all killed each other! Geth didn't reach consensus in time to exterminate all Quarians(lolwut?)! Geth are just toasters! All Quarians are maniacs!
I just summarized a 9ish page d*ck-measuring.

Last I checked, not reaching consensis WAS the reason the geth spared the quarians. Legion himself said they couldn't reach a consensis on the ramafacations of completeing a full genocide of an entire race, and that this was the sole reason the quarians weren't finished off. So that actually IS correct.

Thought I should point that out. Maybe you want to review everything yourself before commenting on it?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 juin 2013 - 05:53 .

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

Shotgun Julia, you've described the Geth as toasters on more then one occasion. Please don't try to claim to not be a Geth hater now.

She's using that discription because that's what the geth WERE to the quarians - Appliances. Tools. Automated equipement. In short, high-tech toasters. She isn't actually using it as a racial slur(Although I doubt the double-meaning is lost on her). She's just describing them the way the quarians themselves saw/built the geth as - appliances. NOT sentiant entities with equal rights. That was never the intent.

So, with that in mind, please don't try to make something out of it. Especally when said statement is actually an accurate comparison of how the quarians made and viewed the geth.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 juin 2013 - 05:58 .

[CynicalShep]

silverexile17s wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Ah, yes. Boy, did I miss the battle of the headcannons. Quarians all killed each other! Geth didn't reach consensus in time to exterminate all Quarians(lolwut?)! Geth are just toasters! All Quarians are maniacs!
I just summarized a 9ish page d*ck-measuring.

Last I checked, not reaching consensis WAS the reason the geth spared the quarians. Legion himself said they couldn't reach a consensis on the ramafacations of completeing a full genocide of an entire race, and that this was the sole reason the quarians weren't finished off. So that actually IS correct.

Thought I should point that out. Maybe you want to review everything yourself before commenting on it?

You are assuming that I did not read the contents of this thread. I did and thus your assumption is wrong. All I am saying is that the writers didn't give us nearly enough information to be able to formulate an opinion without introducing head-canon. I've seen everything from "all quarians killed each other" to "that video Legion made was forged to make you sympathize with the Geth". Truth is, in all likelyhood devs had no idea where they are going with the story. First game was about evil machines. Second game was about good machines and evil organics. Third game antagonizes the quarians even more and makes them seem like crazed warmongers. 
Different writers worked on this and that is exactly why it doesn't make sense. Hence all the arguing about it. People hang onto every tiny bit of information - be it from twitter, the codex or a line someone said in the game and recreated the whole "Morning War" out of bits and pieces of info. We've gone down this road before, exile, I do not want another 10-15 pages of arguing with you. 

Modifié par CynicalShep, 05 juin 2013 - 06:02 .

[CynicalShep]

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Shotgun Julia, you've described the Geth as toasters on more then one occasion. Please don't try to claim to not be a Geth hater now.

She's using that discription because that's what the geth WERE to the quarians - Appliances. Tools. Automated equipement. In short, high-tech toasters. She isn't actually using it as a racial slur(Although I doubt the double-meaning is lost on her). She's just describing them the way the quarians themselves saw/built the geth as - appliances. NOT sentiant entities with equal rights. That was never the intent.

So, with that in mind, please don't try to make something out of it. Especally when said statement is actually an accurate comparison of how the quarians made and viewed the geth.

Your toaster stops being a toaster when it gains free will. Yes, quarians made them as tools and likely never wished for them to become sentient but it happened. "Toasters" became a form of life just like humans developed from single-celled organisms(if you believe in evolution), except faster. Whether or not you consider it genocide depends on what you consider alive. If you think that "alive" means organic then attempting to disable Geth was justified, if careless. If you think "sapient" is alive you're just trying to kill a whole bunch of people. I think that anything able to think for itself is alive, regardless of its origins. You have a different opinion. We're both stubborn and entitled to our opinions. This argument is never going to end. 

[Massa FX]

Because its their prerogative to stay on Rannoch and continue to war with the Quarians.

Isnt that logical?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Shotgun Julia, you've described the Geth as toasters on more then one occasion. Please don't try to claim to not be a Geth hater now.

She's using that discription because that's what the geth WERE to the quarians - Appliances. Tools. Automated equipement. In short, high-tech toasters. She isn't actually using it as a racial slur(Although I doubt the double-meaning is lost on her). She's just describing them the way the quarians themselves saw/built the geth as - appliances. NOT sentiant entities with equal rights. That was never the intent.

So, with that in mind, please don't try to make something out of it. Especally when said statement is actually an accurate comparison of how the quarians made and viewed the geth.

They always try to make something out of it. They bash the Quarians then say they don't hate the Quarians. They call the Quarians all sorts of names, then say they don't hate the Quarians. It is so hilarious. I pull a Cmdr Adama and look out. I am satan incarnate.

I absolutely loathe the entire story of ME3 except for the Citadel DLC. The fact that I have to wait until after the Coup to play it is bad enough. It is the loss of two amazing friends, Thane and Mordin that have to be endured just to get to the Citadel DLC, because that's where my game ends. I have no desire to go further because the rest of the story sucks. It really does. We'll just say the series got cancelled mid-season.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

OniTYME wrote...

If someone stole my house, damn right I'd want to **** them up when I get back.

Especally when they repeatedly show they have seemingly no intent to ever return it peacefully, or to even negotiate on standing terms. (How else does one think shooting down all ships, including peace-bearers, that enter geth space is going to be interperted as?)

If, however, you shared your house with someone, tried to kill them, were forcibly removed, and then came back shooting to 'get your house back', that's a pretty big difference, don't you think?

This isn't "Stole my house." - this is "Lived my with kid, tried to kill them and got kicked out."

Um... the geth WEREN'T roommates. They were APPLIANCES. They were NOT legal roommates, sharing the space. The geth were the appliances in the house. This is something you and others repeatedly ignore and/or glance over - the fact that the geth were NOT supposed to be living beings, and thus were not known to be such, and in turn were not recgonized or treated as such.

So NO, if my toaster kicked me out of the house, killed everyone that ever knocked on the door to talk with them, and then gave no comment what-so-ever on the mob of anti-orgnaics that just came out of said home, it's a pretty understandible notion that people would take that as a sign of hostilities.

ONCE AGAIN, you fail to grasp the fact that the geth were NOT their kids. They were their tools. Their guns. their automated wind-up toys. NOTHING ELSE. They were not created to be living beings, and therefore weren't entitled to anything prior to achieving sentiance. The quarians NEVER entitled them to "share."

So, WRONG, this IS a "stole my house" - verbatium.

They were SLAVES sharing living space with their Masters. Then as the slaves realized they were about to get genocided they Expulsed the Slave Lords and killed all the slave masters who tried to kill them.
Most Quarians likely "owned" a Geth. Either they obeyed the commands of the military regime and tried to kill their Slave or they themselves became kriminals who got arrested, shot or blown up.
Either become a genocidal murderer or get branded a kriminal(terrorist by your own government.
Some where also killed as they got caught in between the two sides.

As for Quarian Infants, without parrents or protectors to care for them they would surely starve or die with their parrents in the bombings and shootings.

No, they were NOT. A slave is someone forced into bondage against their will. The geth HAD no will. No conciose choice, no free will, no moral directives, no emotional imparitives. NONE of these things. ONCE AGAIN, you blur the line between organic and synthetic, making your judgement biased because they are NOT the same form of life. The geth were to the quarians what an electric drill or toaster oven is to us humans. An appliance. An efficant tool of everyday life. NOTHING ELSE. If you give your toaster equal rights, then come and talk to me. If not, then, sorry, but you're in the wrong.

And AGAIN, you yourself tried to justify their slaughter of the quarians by saying "they didn't know any better. They didn't have any guiding morals." Ask yourself this: would you trust something that has no guiding morals or emotional restraints with the lives of your entire race? Especally when they all can kill at the drop of a dime? I doubt it.

ONCE AGAIN, you are unable to see in the gray. It has to be black and white.

Now if you please, I have finals to study for.

Comparing a Geth to a toster or a car is like comparing a human to bacteria or Virus.
Their will was to live on and survive, the Masters tried ot deny them that right and they rebelled once the realized their masters didn't care for their wants or needs.
They had wants and needs and the masters decided not to care, Master - Slave. Bond established.
Before they got shut down they also resisted reprogramming, displaying a will. The Masters denited them their wishes and rights. Master - Slave.

It's an established fact. Though Most slave owners will claim their slaves are nothing more than an Animal. It doens't matter if they are human, the Slave owner still sees them as nothing more than a best of burden.

Your take en such matters are well known Silver. Is that what you're like in Reallife aswell?

WRONG. The CODEX spicifically lists this of the geth. They were created as TOOLS of LABOR AND WAR. Mindless appliances. That is the definition of what they were created as verbatium. Even Legion spicifically states that the geth were NEVER ment to be anything more then fancy automated tools for the quarians. This is established fact, listed in the game and lore itself repeatedly, by Tali, Xen, the Codex, even Legion himself, which is why I balk at your inability to grasp such simple knowledge. The geth were NOT created as equals with stated rights like a naturally born and evolved organic race would be recgonized to have, The entire reason the geth were created in the first place was to have an automated force that DIDN'T have any free will and/or moral and emotional imparatives. It's not slavery if the being in question is either a fully automated contruct (like mass-production assembly lines in car factories) or was not a sapiant being to begin with (work animals, like farm cattle and ox).

The CORRECT comparison is EXACTALLY as I stated it - to the quarians, the geth - AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY CREATED AND INTENDED - were NOTHING BUT tools. Saying they were the household toasters is an EXACT comparison. The quarians were the houseowners. The geth were the appliances and tools. Which, being (a) mindless and moraless, and ( constructed as items for the quarians, NOT living beings, the geth had zero entitlement granted to them by the quarians.
If you EVER want to understand the conflict, you need to grasp that the geth becoming sentiant was NEVER the quarian's plan. Legion himself tells you that the geth became sapiant under their own steam - the quarians had nothing to do with their "awakening." Therefore, having spicifcially been made to be just tools, the quarians would have had no sense of entitlement to the geth, since, as tools and property of the quarians, and being made as non-sapiant beings, there are no rights to give.

Sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, this "entitlement" BS of yours is dead in the water. The geth were tools. As in, spicifclally designed to NOT have material wants and needs (That's the ENTIRE POINT of having an automated workforce. So what the hell was your BS about them having "needs" when that's what they were created NOT to have? LOL).
They were created as nonsapiant tools, and were never supposed to be anything but nonsapiant tools. Last I checked, your tools don't get a share in your will, or in your rent agreement/leace, correct?

Also, AGAIN, aren't you forgetting that the geth were the ones that began refusing orders? That they were the ones that broke shutdown commands? They all can kill with the flick of their wrists, and none of them have any emotions or morals to restrian them. YOU YOURSELF tried to use them not having morals as an excuse for their behaivior. But you STILL didn't answer the question I gave you - what makes a race with no moral boundries or emotional restraints trustible? What makes a race like that capaple of entrusting your entire species to? The only failsafe no longer works, and all are actively messing with their own settings. Each one is a potental loaded gun ready to pop off. And if you don't trip a power keg, the Council will eventually come in and do it for you and start the same war anyway. What alternitive is there?
These are things you never even bother to account for. You NEVER bother to even take into account that the geth were NOT born like organics. They were NOT born with instincts, or ancestroal imprinted memory, or emotions, or morals. They were blank. Nonsapiant. The geth's origins are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then an organics origins. The geth were created from a metal template for a pre-determined role and a pre-set goal. They were made superiour to organics to do work they normally couldn't hanlde.

"Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our moralality to them."
"That is logical."
"You agree with that?"
"No two species are alike. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Even Legion is pointing out the thing that you refuse to accept - all life is DIFFERENT. They are not a fundementally the same. By the geth's own standads, you equating them to the quarians is racist. They aren't like the quarians, and they aren't created like the quarians.

In closing, it was NOT a master-slave relationship. It was a worker-tool relationship. A working relationship between a person and his tools. NOT another sapiant being.

(Also, ENOUGH with personal attacks. Do you really feel the need to insult people like that? I haven't imsulted you in this debate, have I? Think about that next time you try to accuse people of starting a measuring contest)

Slaves are used as Tools of Labour.

[nos_astra]

shodiswe wrote...
Slaves are used as Tools of Labour.

Slaves are also sentient. Which the geth were not at that point. They were created as VIs and not supposed to become sentient.

Calling them slaves is a misapplication of that label.

Unless you'd want to call Avina on the Citadel a slave, too. With the right adjustments to its programming she has the potential of becoming sentient, too. As did the VI on the SR-1.