60 réponses à ce sujet

[EGD Eric]

Hi everyone, I used to play in NWN DM'ed games back in the day, I'd use Neverwinter Connections to find games/campaigns to join. I haven't played NWN in a really long time, but I've recently wanted to go back to it. I checked out NWC, but that place is a ghost town, no one is scheduling games anymore. Not a big surprise, since the game is pretty old, but I figured a game like this would still have people playing it. I'm interested in playing in campaigns again, maybe even DM'ing. I'd like to reccomend this game to my sister, she lives far away, and I'd like to be able to play with her, but I want to dip my toes in first, make sure the online aspect of this even works. So anyway, is there still a good community out there for playing in and DM'ing campaigns?

[Elhanan]

Perhaps something in this link may be of help:


http://www.neverwint....info/index.htm

[OldTimeRadio]

@EGD Eric - You might want to browse around for recent-ish threads at NWNCampaigns and PM a DM or two to see what they've currently got going. 

[BelowTheBelt]

Arenthyor offers a DM'd campaign every Monday, if you're interested.

Check out www.arenthyor.com for info about the world and the forums for the DM events.

Let me know if you have any questions or interest.

Modifié par BelowTheBelt, 28 mai 2013 - 03:04 .

[Fester Pot]

Yeah. Sadly, Neverwinter Connections hit rock bottom when it was handed over. The new administration took way too long during the migration phase from the old legacy system to the new, and many of those who used the system, have left the scene.

The old legacy system should have remained running while they created a new platform for the system, rather than writing it all from scratch and leaving nothing for the community to use.

Live and learn.

FP!

Modifié par Fester Pot, 30 mai 2013 - 03:54 .

[EGD Eric]

I just PM'ed someone at NWN campaigns, here's hoping..

Say I want to host a multiplayer game, and get a friend to join me. How do I do that? Is there a guide to hosting a game? All advice I've found is really dated.

Modifié par EGD Eric, 30 mai 2013 - 04:31 .

[OldTimeRadio]

I'd suggest you just grab a copy of NWN Client Extender and try to join a multiplayer game.  It picks up the ball that got dropped with Gamespy.  You can learn more and download the extender here.  You'll be able to see the games in the different categories like you're used to.  You basically unpack it to your NWN folder and launch NWN with NWNCX_Loader.exe.

EGD Eric wrote...
Say I want to host a multiplayer game, and get a friend to join me. How do I do that?

I haven't done it in a while but I think it's as easy as goin to Multiplayer, New Internet/LAN game, picking a module and away you go.  Your sister can use the Direct Connect option in multiplayer to connect directly to your external IP address.  Ports may need to be opened up on your router/firewall for them to get through: Another reason why it's usually easier to start meetups on the common ground of a PW.  You can either give her the IP or tell her where to find it in the multiplayer games section.

Is there a guide to hosting a game? All advice I've found is really dated.

Most if not all of the instructions you may come across are still going to be accurate.  NeverwinterNights.info is a great website for beginners trying to get their bearings.  Nice rulebook can be found here for beginning players.

Let's say you wanna do something or troubleshoot something and you just can't find the instructions. You can always grab a copy of the NWN Omnibus and basically search through a number of old Bioware forums I saved off along with all the stickied threads.  For what you're doing?  Almost certainly overkill.  But it's there if you need it or if you plan on doing building with the toolset or scripting. 

It's like almost 500 megs though, but it's got the answer to pretty much any question you could ask. 

Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 30 mai 2013 - 08:01 .

[ehye_khandee]

Fester Pot wrote...

Yeah. Sadly, Neverwinter Connections hit rock bottom when it was handed over. The new administration took way too long during the migration phase from the old legacy system to the new, and many of those who used the system, have left the scene.

The old legacy system should have remained running while they created a new platform for the system, rather than writing it all from scratch and leaving nothing for the community to use.

Live and learn.

FP!

{sark}Gee, thanks for that.{/sarc}

"leaving nothing for the community to use"?!?! EVERYTHING is working there except for the forum. Like the internet is not full of forum options eh?

We did the conversion in um two months time, and that was 'way too long'... oy. The only thing not plugged-in (but coded and waiting) is the forum side due to needing artwork for the spambot blocker.

Keep the old one online? It used proprietary sytems costing $3000 and I didn't see you open your wallet. Besides, it ran on windows server and used ColdFusion, both are security nightmares and I would not run a windows server (unless you paid me very very well).

You can complain all you like but we did the work, did it secure and did it well. Want to help? Donate money for the art cause or [donate] art.

I encourage everyone to go to http://neverwinterconnections.com and see for themselves. The unique features of that site are replicated presently and functioning. All such has been the case since two months after we abruptly inherited the site.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Modifié par ehye_khandee, 31 mai 2013 - 02:52 .

[OldTimeRadio]

ehye_khandee wrote...
The only thing not plugged-in (but coded and waiting) is the forum side due to needing artwork for the spambot blocker.

Ehye, if the forum is all coded up and just waiting for the artwork, why not just use some public domain images as placeholders so the site can move forward?  You've been asking for artwork for eights months now and while a lot of people have offered to step up and create images for the site to use, the restrictions you've placed on that artwork have grown pretty large.

It seems weird that such a Herculean task as recoding that forum to the standards that you'd like would be done but it would all be waiting on artwork which could be filled in by placeholders.

Having even a little information in the Latest NWC Fixes & Latest NWN News along with a working forum would go a long way to giving visitors to the site the impression that it's active.

[ehye_khandee]

OldTimeRadio wrote...

Ehye, if the forum is all coded up and just waiting for the artwork, why not just use some public domain images as placeholders so the site can move forward?  You've been asking for artwork for eights months now and while a lot of people have offered to step up and create images for the site to use, the restrictions you've placed on that artwork have grown pretty large.

It seems weird that such a Herculean task as recoding that forum to the standards that you'd like would be done but it would all be waiting on artwork which could be filled in by placeholders.

Having even a little information in the Latest NWC Fixes & Latest NWN News along with a working forum would go a long way to giving visitors to the site the impression that it's active.

Friend OTR,
First, while I appreciate advice - and in fact have pursued the use of free images at several sites I have found none suited to the task. As an example let me cite a few specific urls offered by doing searches on the site you suggested...

http://www.publicdom...hp?hleda=dwarf#

Here are images of a bonsai, photos of a couple examples of human dwarfism, a couple lawn gnomes and then some images that clearly infringe on DISNEY copyrights, the rest of the site is dedicated to selling me 'professional art'.

http://www.publicdom...j.php?hleda=elf

Offers us some photos of a baby dressed in some sort of Christmas-elf costume and a few of Christmas ornaments.

http://www.publicdom...php?hleda=gnome

Offers me two photos of a modern garden gnome statue.

Clearly none of this is suitable to a D&D nor NWN site. We seek to ask the human viewer, with lore of D&D / NWN to "click on the elf" or "click on the orc" etc., and these images offered are NOT cannon material.

I have stated I am what you call penurious. I have not a single penny to spare on buying art for this volunteer project. I have provided the code and the hosting with the help of my excellent team. We re-created the unique functions of the original NWC site and then turned to the NWN community A YEAR AGO asking for help with the needed art.

You state that "a lot of people have offered to step up and create images for the site
to use, the restrictions you've placed on that artwork have grown pretty large."

This thread

http://social.biowar.../index/12655490

saw ONE volunteer after five months - a kindness to volunteer but I had to decline as the offer was to be based off the game art, which the EULA limits to use - neverwinterconnections.com is not a nwn server and hence could not 'fly under the wire' of that EULA provision. The thread also saw one suggestion that I use stock art or make a temporary version for later revision.

You will please note that the above listed thread like the one that follows both begin with a clear statement of the 'news' regarding the site.

http://social.biowar.../index/12655527

This thread above garnered NO volunteers nor suggestions for the art.

http://social.biowar.../index/10808444

Garnered ONE suggested source for public domain art after four pages (and a whole year) of dialog. After dilligently searching those sites we found a _few_ usable images of solid pedigree (legaly usable and suited to the task)... but not enough to complete the work, especially the robo-foil system.

Lastly in the thread

http://social.biowar.../index/16054289

deviantart.com was suggested and I searched it, contacted a number of artists there, am continuing to sort through the artist listings there but am finding most are disinterested in doing any custom work for free - I continue to search through the free images there seeking ones that will fit the cannon desired.

To be clear it is not my desire to setup this system twice, so I have no interest in creating a temporary system only to have to do it again later (there is a lot of work involved).

Altogether, I find less than "a lot of people have offered to step up and create images for the site to use". I am, at present working with one such artist who contacted me privately. Still, it has been a year and the NWN community has not so much stepped up to create images as come along with suggestions on where I could search for art (appreciated, but I am not unaquainted with clip art; I've been in web design since 1994). Believe me, if I had found suitable images for the purpose I would use them - most essiential here is the robo-foil system that will depend on D&D / NWN cannon characters being depicted for the user to click on.

Initially, my art request was brief and a little vague - since then we have released more detailed descriptives of the desired pieces - please don't misconstrue this as "restrictions you've placed on that artwork" - artists ASKED so I filled in some blanks to dispel any confusion. No artist is asked to do it all, the various pieces were described/requested in the event an artist had art in their portfolio that might match (to speed production you see).



While these suggested sources are appreciated, more helpful would be money for art purchases, or help in finding/evaluating available pieces from this jungle of sites (mostly seeking to sell me art I cannot afford).

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[EGD Eric]

I'm not sure why NWC is deserted, but I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of forums.

But about this forums issue...

The problem is that there's no forums? And there's no forums because there's no art?
I didn't realize forums were so dependent on art (not being sarcastic, just didn't realize). Was there art in the old forums? (I don't remember), why not re-use that art? IP issues? I guess the old owners weren't as worried about that.

If the art is really an issue, this sounds like a good kickstarter project. Some members of the NWN community could pledge money to hire an artist to do it all, and you could get all the art you need. If not enough people pledge, then they get their money back.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Just my 5 cents

The legal law you are so focused on, is a bit over the top, the way it's described is such that I cannot see many artists volunteering, I can't even see them bothering to read what is requested being usually visual sorts. It's just presented in the wrong way, if you want people helping it has to seem fun ( kind of like painting a fence if you read twain ).

Most agreements are relatively simple, and the legal language is not needed to be legally safe, those laws are made to protect artists who do not want to think in legal terms, nor even need to talk to a lawyer or do anything beyond signing their name to have protection. Further for "free" work, most artists would only give you usage rights on your site, reserving further rights for themselves. For the most part the simple agreement of an artist providing artwork is all that is needed for what is in essence a simple fan site dedicated to neverwinter nights.

Also if you cannot use the art for NWC, then the vault and wikia has an issue using that same art as well ( and note that wikia has a lot of material, all of which is used to support a commercial company which could be real sums of money, not treble zero damages involved in your case. Of course this ignores the real loss of sales if EA, Hasbro were to actually try to sue a fan site which is important to the community. ).

( Note that i have been a graphic designer since 1995, done illustration work for magazines, have done logos including trademark searches and registration, custom photography, and have built an entire artist community providing stock photography for my companies customers. )

[ehye_khandee]

EGD Eric wrote...

I'm not sure why NWC is deserted, but I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of forums.

But about this forums issue...

The problem is that there's no forums? And there's no forums because there's no art?
I didn't realize forums were so dependent on art (not being sarcastic, just didn't realize). Was there art in the old forums? (I don't remember), why not re-use that art? IP issues? I guess the old owners weren't as worried about that.

If the art is really an issue, this sounds like a good kickstarter project. Some members of the NWN community could pledge money to hire an artist to do it all, and you could get all the art you need. If not enough people pledge, then they get their money back.

I will explain. SPAMBOTS are everywhere, they even manage to infiltrate THIS forum from time to time and post hundreds of annoying and off topic messages/advertisements. Some I've seen here are sports related, but some I've seen in my travels are pornographic and worse. I don't want the audience to be upset as they may well be when a younger NWNer logs in to the neverwinterconnections.com an finds some mass of spammy pornographic or illegal item advertisments.

I have worked in networking since the mid 1980's. I've been running forums for that long. The systems have evolved over the years but so too have the spambots. They grow increasingly capable of creating new accounts on forums - once they do so they post it full of spam. This means an admin has to take time every day, maybe several times a day to moderate the forum. I don't know that we have time to be the abused by all the spambots out there - I am attempting to ensure they never get through the door - never make an account.

The proposed protective sytem uses images of a gaming nature so that human viewers visiting the site will be able to select the right region in the image with ease (hence based of NWN / DND standards) while spambots will fail to 'click on the dwarf' for example.

The art for the protective system is essential, I will not open the forum without it.

I am poor. As such I am the sort who avoids legal entanglements as I cannot afford a lawyer. For these reasons I must maintain a totally above-board presence online and in life. We are trying to continue to provide neverwinterconnections.com for the benefit of the NWN community; getting it and myself entangled in a law suit is NOT going to accompllish the goal.

I THANK YOU  for the kickstarter suggestion - I will review the option and see what I need to do to get such a thing started. Off the top of my head I think I'll need to have a dollar figure, so for that I'd need to get some quotes from som professional artists. We could work with artists from the community (if any want to make me a quote for the specified art work please do). On this basis, I'm half tempted to call my old friend Larry Elmore this morning to see if he has some pieces we could use and if so what fee he might charge me. I think I shall.

As for the old art of the site, neither it nor the code had documentation - yes, the former admins were much more 'loose' about such things than I am, but we are trying to ensure that someday when we too pass the torch to the next admin, that there will me no nightmares. Much of the old site evolved 'organically' was built as they went in a very informal way, there were not even comments in the code. Sorting it all out in the mere two months it took us to do it was no mean feat. I am an old school programmer and I do things in a very structured way. The whole thing will be handled professionally, with full code documentation and full art pedigrees preserved. The next admin will NOT have to struggle to make it all work; we aim to ensure the future transfers go smoothly. And yes, I believe NWN will by far out-live me.

THANK you foryour input, it has been helpful.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[ehye_khandee]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Just my 5 cents

The legal law you are so focused on, is a bit over the top, the way it's described is such that I cannot see many artists volunteering, I can't even see them bothering to read what is requested being usually visual sorts. It's just presented in the wrong way, if you want people helping it has to seem fun ( kind of like painting a fence if you read twain ).

Most agreements are relatively simple, and the legal language is not needed to be legally safe, those laws are made to protect artists who do not want to think in legal terms, nor even need to talk to a lawyer or do anything beyond signing their name to have protection. Further for "free" work, most artists would only give you usage rights on your site, reserving further rights for themselves. For the most part the simple agreement of an artist providing artwork is all that is needed for what is in essence a simple fan site dedicated to neverwinter nights.

Also if you cannot use the art for NWC, then the vault and wikia has an issue using that same art as well ( and note that wikia has a lot of material, all of which is used to support a commercial company which could be real sums of money, not treble zero damages involved in your case. Of course this ignores the real loss of sales if EA, Hasbro were to actually try to sue a fan site which is important to the community. ).

( Note that i have been a graphic designer since 1995, done illustration work for magazines, have done logos including trademark searches and registration, custom photography, and have built an entire artist community providing stock photography for my companies customers. )

Friend painofdungeoneternal,

Note, I have worked with professional artist since the mid 1980s, including such names as Larry Elmore, Keith Parkinson, Clyde Caldwell, and many many others. I know MANY artists who do read, and do ask for details on art they are to submit EXPRESSLY SO THEY CAN SUBMIT USEFUL MATERIAL as most artists I know don't like to waste their contracted time. I don't know how you personally communicate with your clients and they with you, but in my decades of experience I find all the conracts and deals I have been party to have been richly detailed by text agreements and descriptive text requests. I have been personally involved in the drafting and negotiation of contracts with companies including Games Designers' Workshop, TSR, Wizards of the Coast, FASA, Chaosium, and countless others. I am not, by any means, new to this subject and process.

Specifying such things as topic and size are essential to all the deals I've experienced.

You offer "The legal law you are so focused on, is a bit over the top". You fly how you please, I stick to legality. I am not in the market to make a monster of this site. Our goal is to have properly and fully documented code and art ready to pass to the next admin when the time comes. Doing any of this differently would not accomplish that goal. The site we inherited had no code comments, no documentation and no art pedigrees. That is a total nightmare to deal with, one the next admin will not face.

You offer "Most agreements are relatively simple, and the legal language is not needed to be legally safe" - um, ok you go right ahead an sign any sort of contract you please, I suspect none would hold any value in court, but that's your look-out. I adhere to the law, the language of the law (with which I've been deeply involved since the 1980's) - and in fact that short legal piece regarding the art (only a couple paragraphs) is solid and brief.

Other NWN related sites assess and evaluate their own risks, I do so with mine, each case is unique as I am sure you understand. Obviously, our ideas of proper levels of protection do not match, but that is of no consequence to me. I will 'cover my backside' as much as I feel proper.

As a 'graphic designer' are you volunteering to help create graphics for neverwinterconnections.com , or did you post here just to tell me you disagree with my post and/or brief legal submission text?

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[ehye_khandee]

Friends,
I love NWN. I'm a big booster of NWN have been since the start. Well, I did not _want_ to call in 'old contacts and old favors' but, in the face of this need and a lack of artists willing to do the images needed for the planned new member security system (spambot stopper) - I bit the bullet.

I just now got off the phone with my old friend Larry Elmore. Though it has been many long years, he remembered me (thank you Larry). We spoke briefly and came to an arrangement for the art pieces needed for this particular system. Larry is busy working on a 300+ page book with a mid july publishing date, so it will be a couple weeks before he is able to get back to me with specific pieces - but he promised to prepare a selection of his art for this use, and to give us his best pricing. Bless you brother Larry!

When I have the pieces picked out for the security system, I'll post a link to a kickstarter program and we will take donations from the public to fund this need.

Meanwhile, we will still need the rest of the requested pieces. If you or someone you know can do EVEN ONE of the requested pieces, please do step up; we need your help.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[painofdungeoneternal]

ehye_khandee wrote...

As a 'graphic designer' are you volunteering to help create graphics for neverwinterconnections.com , or did you post here just to tell me you disagree with my post and/or brief legal submission text?

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

No, there is obviously an alignment conflict between us, or something else, and i don't see how we could work together. Besides there are other things i can do which i see as benefiting the community more.

I was discussing this with you, back when i had no time to do anything, but by the time i had more time to be involved in the community, i found your manner disrespectful to some ( seeming based on their reputation), and also found you unwilling to listen to much constructive criticism which sounded very well reasoned, ( even changed my mind regarding some frameworks which actually seem to be saving me a lot of time on my own projects )

Yes legally a lot of people who are artists, who make a lot of money, do like well written contracts. They also like hearing about a kickstarter project to fund said artwork. That sounds great if you can make that happen.

Yet, thinking differently, I've actually done artistic projects without focusing first on the "legal" part, and even then clarify that in an email if needed, and are willing to agree to the person "donating" artworks desired terms. I've seen many in the community do artwork as well on those terms, and in THIS community, this seems like the norm.

Both ways of thinking are legit, the thing i'd like you to entertain is that perhaps there are multiple ways of getting from point A to point B, and perhaps by giving others a little "benefit of the doubt", and listening and learning, you might find others have different expertise and perspectives which are valid. An awful lot of success has come when you have a meeting of the minds which leverages multiple points of view towards a common cause, or even separate projects all coordinating together like what happened with the gamespy issue.

Frankly, i am leery of discussing things with you, but also sincerly wish success to NWC more than i wish to avoid a conversation which seems to lead directly to conflict. I hope you remember that sometimes the greatest artwork is just stick figures, it's the substance underlying how it looks which is often far more important.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 06 juin 2013 - 07:23 .

[ehye_khandee]

'legit' is a shortened term meaning LEGAL, laws are things I don't care to run afoul of, and face it, it would be my butt chaffing in the legal wind if this were not actually done 100% legit.

I am very careful. I am not here to argue, but I do reserve the right to evaluate what I read and form my own opinion. I do not agree with everyone, nobody can. I have long experience in this and trust to it. I dot all the i's and cross all the t's.

I understand others may not be so strict, but they can do what they please when it is their own butts left to chaffe in the legal wind, just as I do what I please in this situation.

I understand you do not want to have your name or art associated with the site, so be it. The new Larry Elmore art that will soon debut on neverwinterconnection.com will not be lonely for overlong, of that I'm certain.

TO ALL ARTISTS : Larry Elmore is on board with us, preliminary negotiations completed this morning, he and I will go over art selections in the next few weeks. If you would like your art on the same pages/site as Larry Elmore's, now is the time to get on board.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Modifié par ehye_khandee, 06 juin 2013 - 08:31 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

hmmm, it's kind of like we are throwing words past each other and there is no meeting in the middle going on.

I am not saying illegal vs legal, nothing i am stating is illegal or implies that. Legit meant solely legitimate methods, and what you are describing is quite formal, but there are quite a few relationships which are legal and quite informal at the same time.

It is a misunderstanding of the law to think that by not doing things in specific formal manner, then the law is being neglected, the law actually follows some common sense and exists even when things are not written in legal mumbo jumbo, or when either of the parties have any idea of what the law is. I don't have to write copyright 2013 or file paperwork on every doodle, to be protected, nor do the two 13 year old kids setting up a website together need an actual contract. ( which is not even possible since they are minors and cannot be party to a contract )

To a degree that just makes a simple transaction way more complicated than it should be, especially when there is no danger of a word of mouth dispute since it would tend to be all documented in emails a judge could sort out, and it's simple usage on your site for free. And then we are quibbling also over when such is said, all the legal stuff could be presented AFTER a person agrees to help you via emails or pm's, or even in a agreement which you can link to on your site which governs contributions.

( Note that if you are given artwork, for free, then a contract cannot be enforced, as a contract needs consideration. But then there are laws related to gifts which say you would be protected once such has been given. Technically to be completely safe you would be advised to pay some token money ( or something else of quantifiable value but money is best ) so that a contract could be valid. Of course no matter what contract you do, a sufficiently crazy and legally savvy artist can cause chaos, but then that can happen even without any transaction to begin with, the real problem of the law is how sufficient money or time can distort the law so it can used against those who are actually following it. )

[ehye_khandee]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

hmmm, it's kind of like we are throwing words past each other and there is no meeting in the middle going on.

I am not saying illegal vs legal, nothing i am stating is illegal or implies that. Legit meant solely legitimate methods, and what you are describing is quite formal, but there are quite a few relationships which are legal and quite informal at the same time.

It is a misunderstanding of the law to think that by not doing things in specific formal manner, then the law is being neglected, the law actually follows some common sense and exists even when things are not written in legal mumbo jumbo, or when either of the parties have any idea of what the law is. I don't have to write copyright 2013 or file paperwork on every doodle, to be protected, nor do the two 13 year old kids setting up a website together need an actual contract. ( which is not even possible since they are minors and cannot be party to a contract )

To a degree that just makes a simple transaction way more complicated than it should be, especially when there is no danger of a word of mouth dispute since it would tend to be all documented in emails a judge could sort out, and it's simple usage on your site for free. And then we are quibbling also over when such is said, all the legal stuff could be presented AFTER a person agrees to help you via emails or pm's, or even in a agreement which you can link to on your site which governs contributions.

( Note that if you are given artwork, for free, then a contract cannot be enforced, as a contract needs consideration. But then there are laws related to gifts which say you would be protected once such has been given. Technically to be completely safe you would be advised to pay some token money ( or something else of quantifiable value but money is best ) so that a contract could be valid. Of course no matter what contract you do, a sufficiently crazy and legally savvy artist can cause chaos, but then that can happen even without any transaction to begin with, the real problem of the law is how sufficient money or time can distort the law so it can used against those who are actually following it. )

"Legit meant solely legitimate methods" OK, let's start  by noting that even in grade-school, I'd get no credit in defining a word if I used the word in the definition. Here is what merriam webster has to say about the word legitimate, given here so we are dealing with the same word here.


Definition of LEGITIMATE1 a[/i] : lawfully begotten; specifically : born in wedlock b[/i] : having full filial rights and obligations by birth <a legitimate child> 2 : being exactly as purposed : neither spurious nor false <a legitimate grievance> <a legitimate practitioner> 3 a[/i] : accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements <a legitimate government> b[/i] : ruling by or based on the strict principle of hereditary right <a legitimate king> 4 : conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards <a legitimate advertising expenditure> <a legitimate inference> 5 : relating to plays acted by professional actors but not including revues, ]burlesque, or some forms of musical comedy <the legitimate theater> — le·git·i·mate·ly adverb ] See legitimate defined for English-language learners »See legitimate defined for kids »Examples of LEGITIMATElegitimate means for achieving successthe legitimate use of firearmsThere's no legitimate reason for prescribing this medication to a child.Law books were getting thicker by the week with Supreme Court decisions barring legitimate claims because they weren't timely filed. —John Grisham, The Chamber, 1995[+]moreOrigin of LEGITIMATEMiddle English legitimat, from Medieval Latin legitimatus, past participle of legitimare to legitimate, from Latin legitimus legitimate, from leg-, lex lawFirst Known Use: 15th century


"leg, lex, LAW"

This is where I stand, with the law. Yes, the word can me 'true', but when talking of contracts, this context does not apply to the word 'legitimate'. When creating an agreement (contract) it is pointless to create one that is not in accordance with the law as it would not hold up in court. I seek to create legitimate contract here. This the exact nature of my use of the word here.

Your second paragraph is only true after a certain date, the copyright laws were changed a while back to allow for the omission of the 'copyright' symbol or text. This has not always been the case. It is a grossly incorrect generalization to state "It is a misunderstanding of the law to think that by not doing things in
specific formal manner, then the law is being neglected". For a fact it IS the law presently that you do not need to apply the copyright symbol or text, not some 'common sense' provision. It is the letter of the law. On publishing/producing, you OWN the work you created, unless it is controlled by some prior existing agreement (e.g. work for hire). I invite any lawyer to weigh in here.

You can call it 'legal mumbo jumbo' which reveals a lack of comprehension of the legal terminology often used to precisely frame an agreement/contract, but the fact remains, a well written contract will stand in the court of law while a poorly written one will likely be defeated in such a test.

As an example of just how feeble your grasp of law is, YES a 13 year old kid DOES need a contract AND if you pay the child, it is not counted, you MUST pay the parent. Look it up. If you engage the minor child for WORK you better be aware of the CHILD LABOR LAWS, and it is advisable to get a contract so both parties are properly protected. Note the 13 year old cannot sign the contract either, as they have not reached the age of majority whereupon they would by law be bestowed with such powers.

YOU may feel safe with no contract and relying on emails, but 99% of the judicial occupants out there will LAUGH THEMSELVES SILLY RIGHT IN YOUR FACE should you ever take such a thing to court. Each state has specific language that is needed in a contract, and generally require things like signatures. Email offers no such legitimate seal as does a signature.

The difference here is that between an amateur and a professional. You may feel free to conduct your own business in as amateur a fashion as you please, but do not presume that I'll walk down that garden path with you. I wear no rose colored lenses here.

I present the general agreement in advance as a courtesy to the other party, it is unprofessional to not offer at least such guidelines in these cases, else who can agree to what is not yet defined even in a general sense? (the answer is 'only a fool').

Yes, contracts need consideration, this can come in the form of "a text credit" as noted in the basic agreement I presented. You see, that too has value in the eye of the law and would count as 'consideration' in a very legitimate sense.

Other important parts of the contract include the warrantees, such as the author warranting that they are the creator and owner of the work and legally able to enter into such an agreement.

GIFT laws also stipulate that many gifts are taxable. I don't care to enter that grey area when I can offer 'consideration' and other essential parts of the contract as defined in a proper legal text. I am penurious and therefore cannot take on tax burden you see.

Again, I will conduct my affairs in a very careful and legal way. This includes my efforts to gain art for the neverwinterconnections.com site. When I pass that site on, it will go with all contracts and rights awarded in them, it will be well documented and the code commented. This will be a highly professional effort, this is 'how I roll'.

Now, we all know you are a 'graphic artist', my question to you would be 'are you a lawyer also?' If not, I totally understand ALL the thread that you posted. Totally.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[painofdungeoneternal]

My meaning of legit was just legitimate with it's slang meaning, which is what i meant, and citing the roots or correcting me, well you should allow people to define what they meant. There are many here who get such and they don't know english that well, and I am not perfect in my grammar or definitions. However this just sidesteps what is being said to attack details which are not important.

I just said both ways were legit ( i find it strange to think that if i just sent you a logo, or some such, it would be considered illegal by you ), frankly i do not want to deal with all of that legalese which is largely there to protect my rights as an artist, or to take my rights away, when it's a little tiny website only known of in our very small gaming community, and further a site which I am pretty sure even Bioware, Obsidian, Hasbro appreciates.

I have no problem with your running things your way, however i am looking at the title of this thread -hence forcing it back on topic.

You are very careful on security, on legality, on making sure everything is just so. And all of that by itself is commendable.

The issue is there seems like there is something wrong and the focus is not on the big picture but on the details. Artwork is not why people come to a site ( look at google ). There is a heavy emphasis on doing things by book legally, when I am far more concerned about NWC being empty, than i am about your site receiving a cease and desist letter, based on an artist providing artwork.

You can win every battle and still lose the war. It is far wiser to get things working, to get NWC to be heavily used again.

I hop on NWC and i can easily find broken pages ( most likely in error_log has the details of my visit since it was obviously half the page showing up ), the front page states there are no upcoming games ( seems like it's not until the summer that what is scheduled comes up which is in a few weeks )

As a suggestion, i would go ahead and make the front page show the next 10 events, and also list how many members are active. I would allow outside access, even though this might scare you, to those members of the community you know love the game enough to not mess you up.

Further, i would be very scared about your site not being known, of already having lost the momentum of an active community. I would look at a way to move what your site is, into more hybrid tools such as an iphone / android app, or a desktop application, or even using things like NWNCX to link things up for single and multiplayer LAN type gamers so they can use your site while never leaving the game itself. ( thus capturing the imagination of the players and widening the reach of your system )

And then the issue with the various tracker websites, and skywings system. You seem to care a lot about this community. It would be nice for you to not recreate it and compete with it, but work with what the community is already doing for both NWN1 and NWN2. The various websites related to this are broken when it comes to using them to add to the tracker ( its poorly implemented by them ), it would be nice if we could just say add the site to the NWC and it automatically adds it to the tracker - perhaps readds it when they are about to hit a scheduled time - it's a silly thing but I had one potential user who really needed that and i had to send him a beta version just to get him listed.

Actually I am working on behind the scenes stuff for the vault preservation project now ( and yes i found out i do have usage caps on my internet ), and I could see integration between the vault, the NWC, and skywings system, so the vault could list upcoming events, we could share/sync any added PW's and the current PW's status and vault rating could be listed on your site, and players could be coaxed into the proper site based on their own preferences, but also based on where they get the best service for their needs. ( already merging in both skywings status and the vaults information on what hak's are needed for which PW, so players just hit play and it downloads what they are playing )

But then this all assumes a lot of cooperation, which is what we should be doing, not bickering over what legit means.

[ehye_khandee]

I am very precise in my language - communication is essential in my works historically. I do not use slang when dealing with important matters, i use English and dictionary meanings.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I just said both ways were legit ( i find it strange to think that if i just sent you a logo, or some such, it would be considered illegal by you ), frankly i do not want to deal with all of that legalese which is largely there to protect my rights as an artist, or to take my rights away, when it's a little tiny website only known of in our very small gaming community, and further a site which I am pretty sure even Bioware, Obsidian, Hasbro appreciates.

I never said it would be illegal for you to send me a logo. If you did, I would not use it, since your sending it is NOT the same as permission to USE it, which for legal reasons I require such to be printed and agreed to before I would use the logo.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I have no problem with your running things your way, however i am looking at the title of this thread -hence forcing it back on topic.

You are very careful on security, on legality, on making sure everything is just so. And all of that by itself is commendable.

Agreed.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The issue is there seems like there is something wrong and the focus is not on the big picture but on the details. Artwork is not why people come to a site ( look at google ). There is a heavy emphasis on doing things by book legally, when I am far more concerned about NWC being empty, than i am about your site receiving a cease and desist letter, based on an artist providing artwork.

I _never_ asserted that art work was the reason people would visit neverwinterconnections.com - I insist on the security system which uses images because otherwise spambots will make the forum UNUSABLE. Littering it daily if not hourly with spam and maybe porno and upsetting the audience. The ONLY thing not functional on neverwinterconnections.com right now is the new member setup which is also part of the forum system. I understand that you would not worry about legal issues, it is not your butt chaffing in the legal wind. It is mine, and it is rightly my affair, my choice.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

You can win every battle and still lose the war. It is far wiser to get things working, to get NWC to be heavily used again.

It is utterly unwise to do so in a way that could give me legal problems. THIS is the crux of the biscuit here.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I hop on NWC and i can easily find broken pages ( most likely in error_log has the details of my visit since it was obviously half the page showing up ), the front page states there are no upcoming games ( seems like it's not until the summer that what is scheduled comes up which is in a few weeks )

Share the URLs please don't be vague about broken links. There are no upcomming games listed as there are none scheduled atm, sometimes there are, sometimes not, we list games as often as we can but I'm busy NOT DMing atm and so I don't do that myself atm. ANYONE with an existing account on neverwinterconnections.com can login and schedule games or do any of the other things historically done there _except_ access the forum.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

As a suggestion, i would go ahead and make the front page show the next 10 events, and also list how many members are active. I would allow outside access, even though this might scare you, to those members of the community you know love the game enough to not mess you up.

The front page shows ALL games in the occurring in the next 7 days and all games scheduled in the last 7 days, however many that would be, it displays. ATM that is zero. I emphasize, anyone with an account on neverwinterconnections.com can presently schedule games and I encourage them to do so. My own DMs on the ArgentumRegio server do schedule events when they can, and post them on neverwinterconnections.com .

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Further, i would be very scared about your site not being known, of already having lost the momentum of an active community. I would look at a way to move what your site is, into more hybrid tools such as an iphone / android app, or a desktop application, or even using things like NWNCX to link things up for single and multiplayer LAN type gamers so they can use your site while never leaving the game itself. ( thus capturing the imagination of the players and widening the reach of your system )

I have no such fear. I've been building web sites professionally since 1994, and know how to get interested visitors to a site. The momentum was lost when the old forum closed, that was beyond my control, beyond Shawn and Gilaun's control too. We could not in good faith host the site as it was presented to us, rife with security issues unknown and un-probed by us, with a history of attacks on the site and several years of some measure of neglect. There were years of posts there about rebuilding the site but nothing ever came of them. When the end was announced, I was as shocked as anyone. But in the lack of all others doing so, I stepped up and shouldered the task with the aid of my favorite genius (Erin).

I agree supporting mobile devices is important. That was built into the design and will be refined over time. We make it accessable as a web page for all users of computers and mobile devices. I am not interested in building it as an app or an android program, I feel that would be a waste of my time to reach only a small group of users who can already access the nwc site as a web site.

The WWW is best when NOT done as apps and programs but rather HTML and CSS with automation by PHP. Open-ness is key here.

Our plans do not include using NWNCX as you suggest, but rather to accomplish the same effect with our own in house software (also built and ready to launch - with the rest of the sites' completion). I will not discuss NWNCX beyond that. I do feel the community is better served by having two or more independent systems offering server listings so that if one should fail the others will still be there. Redundancy is a good thing in many cases.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

And then the issue with the various tracker websites, and skywings system. You seem to care a lot about this community. It would be nice for you to not recreate it and compete with it, but work with what the community is already doing for both NWN1 and NWN2. The various websites related to this are broken when it comes to using them to add to the tracker ( its poorly implemented by them ), it would be nice if we could just say add the site to the NWC and it automatically adds it to the tracker - perhaps readds it when they are about to hit a scheduled time - it's a silly thing but I had one potential user who really needed that and i had to send him a beta version just to get him listed.

I care very much about NWN and the community, our work to date speaks to that. Our system for server listings is not competition, just an alternative, redundant system.

The NWC database presently lists many servers and any member can add their own. Soon this will be linked to a set of new tools to allow direct connect from the web. We would be happy to share the data list with others when all is completed and fully tested.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Actually I am working on behind the scenes stuff for the vault preservation project now ( and yes i found out i do have usage caps on my internet ), and I could see integration between the vault, the NWC, and skywings system, so the vault could list upcoming events, we could share/sync any added PW's and the current PW's status and vault rating could be listed on your site, and players could be coaxed into the proper site based on their own preferences, but also based on where they get the best service for their needs. ( already merging in both skywings status and the vaults information on what hak's are needed for which PW, so players just hit play and it downloads what they are playing )

But then this all assumes a lot of cooperation, which is what we should be doing, not bickering over what legit means.

We are not at all interested in using skywing's system. Redundancy is our goal.

I am generally willing to cooperate on mutual goals with any earnest party.

Right now, we need to replace art from the old site of questionable authorship - and most desperately we have for a year needed and asked for art to work for our robofoil system. I cannot dedicate the time to moderate the forum that it would require if there were no security to prevent the bots from infiltrating. I don't care to be made the fool of by the bots and I don't care to have younger NWNers exposed to the kind of garbage those spammers spread. This is a game for all ages, and I don't like to expose the young (it infuriates the parents to say the least).

Any artist is free to jump in and  help us with one or more of the requested images. Please, everyone, cooperation IS key, we ask your help in getting this thing DONE, and done right.

I don't want anyone looking back on my work when I'm gone and saying 'That ODA did such sloppy work!'  I tie-up all the loose ends, I code very carefully, and I make sure there are no legal loopholes ready to 'noose' me. Those that follow in admin position of NWC will fare all the better in the future for my careful, thoughtful effort now.

Shawn and GIllaun did a great job of building this, but that was 10 years ago. It _needs_ this desperately, and I can say that as I have seen the original code.

We are programmers, we cannot do it all alone. I lack most of my old art tools and my vision is not what it once was, graphics are no longer one of my forte skills.

Please, help, or at least stop adding static to the channel, we NEED to reach some artist who will help.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[ehye_khandee]

P.S. look in the upper left corner of the neverwinterconnections.com site and you'll see the 'members online' count displayed too.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Hit players, then hit next without touching anything else.

Review your error logs, a bit more relevant to figuring out the issue I am sure, hopefully it's a typo and not a real issue where it just not display anything when nothing is found.

( The funny thing is i have sites with a lot of users, 20,000 visitors a day with forums and yet have had a real problem with spammers, but then i block the impetus to spam by refusing to let them get hyperlinks which give search credit - hit it with nofollow on all links or just refuse to give them links on the forum, or just don't display them to google, and make it clear when they register they won't get any success. Visual blocks are not effective because it's not bots which you are dealing with, but real people being paid a few dollars a day to register on forums who live in third world countries. )

The WWW is best when NOT done as apps and programs but rather HTML and CSS with automation by PHP. Open-ness is key here.

That is actually quite constrained and requires using a web browser, open is actually sharing all the data of your site in a manner which is usable by others, using whatever language, program, platform, screen readers and following industry standards.

Generally using a REST API which uses the basic HTTP underpinnings - the DNS system is an example of a very large REST system which is used every day. MVC ideas taken to the point of allowing third parties to write their own views and controllers, which can be html and CSS, or just use the xml provided and CSS.

The browser, app, phone, curl command line, perl, whatever, can negotiate how it wants to view your site, and it uses the full caching, errors, and even authentication built into HTTP.

This is how you can integrate facebook, twitter, dropbox, amazon, google, etc into so many ways ( most major websites are already embracing these new concepts ), and also helps in both scaling and development. Imagine the subversion type cvs only used a website and you could not also use a command line or add it to your browser. Or imagine if the data is not inside the game itself when you use NWNCX and have to type in the servers address.

The problem you are going to run into, is you and skywing, are going to compete for who has accurate data, each will be incomplete. Imagine if there were multiple DNS systems and website owners needed to jump thru a hoop to get their data up on each one. It's better to have one system, which cooperates globally, and for both getting your address in they system and getting that info out of said system. At some point both you and skywing HAVE to share data, even if it's separate systems, or you force the people running servers to jump thru 2 hoops, and we already had enough trouble getting the current hoop set up, one to keep it in yours and one to keep it in skywings. It is better if it's easier to add via one, and retrieve by the other for the two systems to talk to each other.

But that means OPEN data, which is freely shared and synced which is the point of developing a "service" which runs providing data for the community. It is just good form to ensure both systems talk to each other, and for you to just agree to talk to skywing about how things work.

Having a redundant system which is separate means you will have one subset of servers and he will have another subset, unless every method now being used is able to update both systems ( hosts file which you desire to use won't, and it also is incompatible with quite a few servers, NWNx is actually preferred if you are using that )

My system will integrate launching a server for the small lan party, announcing it to the skywing API, syncing the haks and other resources ( using the vault API ), and adjusting the ini files as needed. Mostly working for NWN2, still porting over features here to NWN1. I also reviewing using PnP features of routers to allow me to use the API built into routers to open up the needed ports dynamically ( that part is still confusing to end users ). Players will not deal with the technical ideally, and can choose any method they desire to find servers, find content and further it makes the flaw of NWN1 and NWN2 being hard for console gamers a non issue.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 07 juin 2013 - 05:18 .

[ehye_khandee]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Hit players, then hit next without touching anything else.

Review your error logs, a bit more relevant to figuring out the issue I am sure, hopefully it's a typo and not a real issue where it just not display anything when nothing is found.

( The funny thing is i have sites with a lot of users, 20,000 visitors a day with forums and yet have had a real problem with spammers, but then i block the impetus to spam by refusing to let them get hyperlinks which give search credit - hit it with nofollow on all links or just refuse to give them links on the forum, or just don't display them to google, and make it clear when they register they won't get any success. Visual blocks are not effective because it's not bots which you are dealing with, but real people being paid a few dollars a day to register on forums who live in third world countries. )

Some are bots, some are not, we deal with each type individually. Having the images prevents the bots from opening accounts (for now). If links are no-follow google will not index the site deeply, which is part of our goal too. We will resort to blocking links as a last resort, many users of NWC use links to reference other materials online, like haks and forums or web pages associated with their worlds or just game rules in general.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The WWW is best when NOT done as apps and programs but rather HTML and CSS with automation by PHP. Open-ness is key here.

That is actually quite constrained and requires using a web browser, open is actually sharing all the data of your site in a manner which is usable by others, using whatever language, program, platform, screen readers and following industry standards.

Generally using a REST API which uses the basic HTTP underpinnings - the DNS system is an example of a very large REST system which is used every day. MVC ideas taken to the point of allowing third parties to write their own views and controllers, which can be html and CSS, or just use the xml provided and CSS.

The browser, app, phone, curl command line, perl, whatever, can negotiate how it wants to view your site, and it uses the full caching, errors, and even authentication built into HTTP.

OPEN-NESS in the sense everyone can access the site - an app would constrain some features to the app only, and nwn does not run on an iPhone - the MAC version of NWN is rarer than hen's teeth, so this is truly pointless work.

Pretty much every computer and ever mobile device out there already supports HTML and CSS, I don't need to make an app, nor any other program for this sort of access. I prefer and will use HTML and CSS which are open standards (I eschew all proprietary standards on the web). Creating an app is make work. iPhone users can already browse the site and use all the features. Creating an app would do nothing to help here.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

This is how you can integrate facebook, twitter, dropbox, amazon, google, etc into so many ways ( most major websites are already embracing these new concepts ), and also helps in both scaling and development. Imagine the subversion type cvs only used a website and you could not also use a command line or add it to your browser. Or imagine if the data is not inside the game itself when you use NWNCX and have to type in the servers address.

We do not plan on 'integrating' facebook, twitter, tho maybe dropbox eventually (we have our own files section so may not even need that). Amazon? Meh, a link to gog.com maybe, but amazon does not sell NWN anymore as far as I know so is useless in this regard - may make a section of links to game related material for D&D eventually though. We plan to support direct connect links so NWNCX will not be something our users need. There are no 'command lines' required here, the site was built for the casual web user, meant to be easy to grasp and no special tools/systems/software required (HTML & CSS are good for that).

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The problem you are going to run into, is you and skywing, are going to compete for who has accurate data, each will be incomplete. Imagine if there were multiple DNS systems and website owners needed to jump thru a hoop to get their data up on each one. It's better to have one system, which cooperates globally, and for both getting your address in they system and getting that info out of said system. At some point both you and skywing HAVE to share data, even if it's separate systems, or you force the people running servers to jump thru 2 hoops, and we already had enough trouble getting the current hoop set up, one to keep it in yours and one to keep it in skywings. It is better if it's easier to add via one, and retrieve by the other for the two systems to talk to each other.

As I said before, while we may eventually setup to share data with skywing's system (mutually) we will not be using skywing's system at all. This is not about competition but about having some redundancy, if one system fails, users can look to the other until their prefered system is back online. Our system is an extention of the existing neverwinterconnections.com server database feature. We will keep it, and extend it and if skywing wants to share (mutually) the data, we can do that.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Having a redundant system which is separate means you will have one subset of servers and he will have another subset, unless every method now being used is able to update both systems ( hosts file which you desire to use won't, and it also is incompatible with quite a few servers, NWNx is actually preferred if you are using that )

My system will integrate launching a server for the small lan party, announcing it to the skywing API, syncing the haks and other resources ( using the vault API ), and adjusting the ini files as needed. Mostly working for NWN2, still porting over features here to NWN1. I also reviewing using PnP features of routers to allow me to use the API built into routers to open up the needed ports dynamically ( that part is still confusing to end users ). Players will not deal with the technical ideally, and can choose any method they desire to find servers, find content and further it makes the flaw of NWN1 and NWN2 being hard for console gamers a non issue.

We are really not interested in having these tools on our own systems and do not advocate it on others'. We intentionally choose not to use NWNx nor NWNcx and will continue to stand firm on that for reasons I won't go into here.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your system and the APIs - but we have mapped our route and it does not include any of those things - for cause.

THANK YOU again for the bug report, I will be sure to add a 'return to page sending if all fields are blank. Easy fix.

ARTISTs - join us now to get your art submissions it, we need some replacement graphics for the site (see our other post for details).

http://social.biowar.../index/16054289

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[painofdungeoneternal]

When i sat OPEN, i mean truly open, which makes it open to anyone and any way.

This means open data, ie right now there is a public listing of 20,000+ vault entries and growing - anyone can access it once i release it publically, and they can search it, make an app for it. There does not have to be an app, but the idea is that anyone can use it, perhaps using curl to download the latest version of a module, perhaps creating a new app. And it's a better design which is more scalable which means a website will work better and be easier to maintain -- not to mention more secure since an API can be hardened and sit on a separate server instance.

I think the difference is that I think its better to look at the potential impact. It's like if i write a script, it's not much use, however it's better if i write a tutorial, still better to make a tool like Lilac Souls script compiler, even higher end is to make a replacement compiler which lets people compile scripts on a mac or linux, or even in dos on windows.

Hence you are making a website, at the end of the day it's only as good as your coding ability, time, skills permit, and yes i am sure it's great.

In contrast my idea of open is making it so ANYONE can use the data which is the real value in what I am doing, so ANYONE can update this data, so ANYONE can search this data. Now this is not meaning I am not using a website, but rather I am making it so it's not limited to my skills and my choices. Anyone can take that data, update it ( with proper rules so it's safe of course ), list it, search it, make charts out of it, etc.

The idea is that it's not a website, but rather a service which people can build other things upon, a foundation which allows me to let others stand on my shoulders and reach higher than I can -- or perhaps choose to go directions i don't want to and cater to minorities that it's not worth me touching. Or perhaps combine it with their own data and other services out there for something no one really has thought of. Or do things those running the service cannot do ( skywing for example said he didn't know anything about php, when i showed him the php class which simplifies usage of his API )

Open is not just saying it's a website anyone can use, open means it's open so anyone can join in and build things using services provided. It's not just my work, but rather it provides a gateway so the entire community can do things with this data that I never thought of. ( and i suspect this community probably has some of the best programmers in it, just take a look at the vault. )

No i don't expect you to use twitter or any of the other sites like that, what i meant is that modern websites which are top of the line ( and which hope to have investors ), provide a REST api which lets them provide features using the crowd of programmers. Modern websites which are just html are limiting in the long run to just what they can do internally, and also by keeping their data closed and internal they prevent any competition in how people get that data. The third parties tend to think differently and their success lets the provider of the service learn both new ideas and ideas to avoid with no wasted cost.

( note that there are quite a few mac users in this community, they just don't post as such -- not many games cater to both mac and linux and windows and let us all play together, not a majority of course but they tend to also be well represented in the ranks of those doing custom content, so i guess there are some fanged hens. It is not nice to discount any minority group, we should be focusing on what we have in common and not what makes us different. )