60 réponses à ce sujet

[ehye_khandee]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

When i sat OPEN, i mean truly open, which makes it open to anyone and any way.

This means open data, ie right now there is a public listing of 20,000+ vault entries and growing - anyone can access it once i release it publically, and they can search it, make an app for it. There does not have to be an app, but the idea is that anyone can use it, perhaps using curl to download the latest version of a module, perhaps creating a new app. And it's a better design which is more scalable which means a website will work better and be easier to maintain -- not to mention more secure since an API can be hardened and sit on a separate server instance.

I think the difference is that I think its better to look at the potential impact. It's like if i write a script, it's not much use, however it's better if i write a tutorial, still better to make a tool like Lilac Souls script compiler, even higher end is to make a replacement compiler which lets people compile scripts on a mac or linux, or even in dos on windows.

Hence you are making a website, at the end of the day it's only as good as your coding ability, time, skills permit, and yes i am sure it's great.

In contrast my idea of open is making it so ANYONE can use the data which is the real value in what I am doing, so ANYONE can update this data, so ANYONE can search this data. Now this is not meaning I am not using a website, but rather I am making it so it's not limited to my skills and my choices. Anyone can take that data, update it ( with proper rules so it's safe of course ), list it, search it, make charts out of it, etc.

We have ON THE WEB SITE search features galore. All the data is available via the web page, but we don't care to open the databases for third party tools to access. Our goal is to ensure all the functionality is there, on the web, where any web capable device can access it and interact within the controlled framework we create. We have not a plethora of hardware to throw at this, so there is no advantage to me in, for example "having the API hardened and sitting on another server instance".

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The idea is that it's not a website, but rather a service which people can build other things upon, a foundation which allows me to let others stand on my shoulders and reach higher than I can -- or perhaps choose to go directions i don't want to and cater to minorities that it's not worth me touching. Or perhaps combine it with their own data and other services out there for something no one really has thought of. Or do things those running the service cannot do ( skywing for example said he didn't know anything about php, when i showed him the php class which simplifies usage of his API )

Not everything needs to be or even should be a service, some things are web sites which offer the functions they do. New features based on the dataset? Sure, tell us what you have in mind and we'll consider coding that into the web site so it works fine on all systems able to access the web. NWC is a niche and it does what it does... there is not a lot of functionality a third party could add really that we could not integrate directly ourselves. With the limited nature of this niche, I do not see the value in retooling it to work with things not yet thought of. . . the game is 10 plus years old, most if not all the innovation has been done already.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Open is not just saying it's a website anyone can use, open means it's open so anyone can join in and build things using services provided. It's not just my work, but rather it provides a gateway so the entire community can do things with this data that I never thought of. ( and i suspect this community probably has some of the best programmers in it, just take a look at the vault. )

Open can mean many things, open source, open standard, open access. In my case, I used open in the context of OPEN STANDARD, I avoid proprietary standards, and apps just don't excite me. NWN is not for the iPhone as I stated before, access for all to the full functionality of the site can be had by means of the web as it was designed. Opening the database to outside access is not a direction I care to go.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

No i don't expect you to use twitter or any of the other sites like that, what i meant is that modern websites which are top of the line ( and which hope to have investors ), provide a REST api which lets them provide features using the crowd of programmers. Modern websites which are just html are limiting in the long run to just what they can do internally, and also by keeping their data closed and internal they prevent any competition in how people get that data. The third parties tend to think differently and their success lets the provider of the service learn both new ideas and ideas to avoid with no wasted cost.

( note that there are quite a few mac users in this community, they just don't post as such -- not many games cater to both mac and linux and windows and let us all play together, not a majority of course but they tend to also be well represented in the ranks of those doing custom content, so i guess there are some fanged hens. It is not nice to discount any minority group, we should be focusing on what we have in common and not what makes us different. )

Though there are MAC NWN players, this does not justify extra work here to enable unknown (if they exist) third parties to make apps for NWC. We present ALL function via the web, and we are NOT just HTML either. NWN is an older game, I do not see a 'crowd' of programmers standing by and eager to create apps for it, and I don't see any advantage in my doing extra work to enable a non-existent crowd to do so. The WWW is a REST api, NWC is a web site, NWC does not need another REST api. Yes, we are controlling how people access the data, this is by design, and works just fine for the NWC site, just as it always has.

I am not discounting a minority group, but I'm stating for a fact that even the MAC users do not need an app to access what NWC offers; they have web access capability too. This is EXACTLY what NWC was designed for, what the WWW was designed for - to allow everyone to access the content provided.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[painofdungeoneternal]

the MAC version of NWN is rarer than hen's teeth, so this is truly pointless work.

I am not discounting a minority group, but I'm stating for a fact that even the MAC users do not need an app to access what NWC offers;

I did not hear that, i only heard that we mac users are rarer than hens teeth which makes it so we don't exist, I totally understand a website is capable of working for macs, but the hens teeth comment is very discounting of a significant segment - without the non windows people nwn would not be where it is today.

I do not see a 'crowd' of programmers standing by and eager to create apps for it

There are a lot of programmers and developers for this very very old game - I was actually meeting completely new people when gamespy went down and not everyone finished something, most just had ideas, but there were probably 10-15 superstars who really had to be involved or we still would not have listings of PW's in so many different ways. There are also quite a few offering guidance, money, help and design work for the vault preservation project.

things not yet thought of

There in lies the future of the game itself, without innovation there is no point, but from my view of this game, the best is still ahead.

most if not all the innovation has been done already.

That is a VERY negative point of view. Tends to be self fulfilling.

A lot of the innovations are things you speak disparagingly about like the following statement.

We are really not interested in having these tools on our own systems and do not advocate it on others'. We intentionally choose not to use NWNx nor NWNcx and will continue to stand firm on that for reasons I won't go into here.

I don't mind anyone prefering a website over in game tools, but then i also think it's just wrong to argue everyone should also share that point of view and that certain popular projects in the community should be ignored when the community which SHOULD be using a connection service ( ie PW's ) also is the same group which heavily uses things like NWNx and NWNCX ( and in fact developed them ).

Note that a lot of the innovation relates to how these tools remove prior barriers, ideas like bringing old things like various websites, moving the NWNx into single player ( NWNCX ) ie imagine a player going into a SP module and suddenly able to at the end see comparison scores or others who finished that SP module, a leaderboard just using mySQL on some server with a not very secure public port.

Also taking ideas you see commonly in silicon valley - which is all I'm stating, and describing how those are not needed.

To me what you site does - ie connections and events - is very closely inter-related to so many scheduling programs for events. Further your site should be promoting events. Having those events solely on your site, and not using RSS feeds, shared calendars ( so i see events in my personal calendar on my own system ), or not saying the many DM's who have chosen to use NWNx heavily on their worlds should not be able to announce their many events while they are sitting in game shouting via chat that they just decided to start an event which starts in 5 minutes.

Further it is leaving many missed opportunities for not tweeting events when entered and a hour or so before the event is to take place, to not post such on facebook, to not try to broadcast such outside this community.

Still further is the idea, of publishing your content, which can be simply done in 30 minutes by setting a custom php code to pull upcoming events and list it as simple CSV data, well that would let me add those events to my app, and further make it so any events starting shortly could simply be clicked on by the player, then the player would via my app have any needed files downloaded and installed ( in a safe manner so they cannot conflict with other content ), and be launched into the chosen game - removing the work of typing in an ip address or finding it in the server list. ( not to add this player might have never gone to your site, and might mean instead of 4 players you have 5 players for a session you were planning )

Not to mention "one click" hosting, which lets a DM start a module, click a button inviting people with a message. ( which helps get more people running DM games and perhaps adds more PW's if it's made easier )

Both of which REQUIRE integration with other systems, you have to publish the server so people can find it, and this means using the "popular" means working with the system which "every" PW is now currently using. I think it should involve NWC and that means you have to be less closed. No It is things which REQUIRE an app to do, but this is done without your time, which "moves the mountain to the people instead of expecting them to come to the mountain."

( and what i am stating involves trivial work on your part, could even post to a webform to allow adding a game from inside my app )

I am pretty sure you see no point to all this, that you prefer just a website since the things i am doing do involve running my software, but then this is for other people who have trouble with how the community expects things to be done now, and are used to console games which see anything harder than hitting play as hard. If what i do makes things faster or easier, it's going to be used by the community.

Yes i totally understand the concept of wanting all ideas provided to you, so you can review them, and pick and choose what you want, and get all the credit for making it work ( but then i think that is why you have more reasons for not doing things, than you do for doing things ) - but then that is why i like NWN, it's a game which is not dependent on what is done officially, but rather is full of innovation. The current NWN and NWN2 is full of things like horses, overland maps, spell hooking, database support, even the AI in NWN2 is using the AI the community developed in NWN1, all of which are ideas the owners of the game never thought of. In fact I sometimes think they wish we'd stop upgrading it as everything new they add is going to still have to compete with NWN - NWN2 for example is still competing with NWN1, NWO seems like it's doing a lot worse.

Bioware to it's credit supported all of us doing our own thing, and the spirit of the community is being open and accepting of each other, supportive of whatever efforts regardless of if they are personally going to be used by us.

Of course this is all new ideas, innovation, and i guess this game is too old, the ideas probably have security or legal issues, but then most ideas tend to require such work - I probably should not even try to change the situation.

Of course I have far more optimism that there are lots of new ideas in this community which none of us have even thought of, than i am that you'd consider an idea you did not think of yourself. I am going to make this vision of mine happen, and to do it I am putting things on the new Vault, i am working to get the skywing API so it is working, and I'd like to also work with your site out of respect for what it was but I am doing my planned features with or without you.

But perhaps your sites niche needs some competition in order to make you understand what should be possible. ( sometimes it's hard for people to hear what is being posted and they have to be shown )

[ehye_khandee]

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

    the MAC version of NWN is rarer than hen's teeth, so this is truly pointless work.

    I am not discounting a minority group, but I'm stating for a fact that even the MAC users do not need an app to access what NWC offers;


I did not hear that, i only heard that we mac users are rarer than hens teeth which makes it so we don't exist, I totally understand a website is capable of working for macs, but the hens teeth comment is very discounting of a significant segment - without the non windows people nwn would not be where it is today.[/quote]

There is NO DISCOUNT here, you see, MAC, LINUX, WINDOWS, ANDROID, any device capable of accessing the WWW is INCLUDED, so please stop acting like I told MAC users they are not welcome, that is NOTHING AT ALL LIKE WHAT I STATED. Everyone has access if they can access the web, full access to all features of the NWC site.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

    I do not see a 'crowd' of programmers standing by and eager to create apps for it


There are a lot of programmers and developers for this very very old game - I was actually meeting completely new people when gamespy went down and not everyone finished something, most just had ideas, but there were probably 10-15 superstars who really had to be involved or we still would not have listings of PW's in so many different ways. There are also quite a few offering guidance, money, help and design work for the vault preservation project.
[/quote]

Face it, this is not the NWN community of 2004. MOST have left. Yes, we do get new people still, but the rate at which you find them are less than before during the hay-day of NWN. That crowd is GONE. What we have is a dedicated core and some new users arriving at a lesser pace. I won't pretend this is 2004, you may if you like, but I'm picking my fantasies more carefully. Inflow is a trickle compared to what it once was, likewise inflow of new ideas is slower not just for reduced numbers but because so much good innovation has been done already. Now, I'm dealing with NWC here, not NWN itself (which has more room for adaptation) NWC is a NWN matchmaking site and it does that just fine on the WWW right NOW.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...
    things not yet thought of


There in lies the future of the game itself, without innovation there is no point, but from my view of this game, the best is still ahead.[/quote]

Again, with NWN there is greater room for innovation, but my topic here is NWC and that is a more finite set of innovations - if you have an idea, tell me and we'll consider coding it into the NWC we present on the WWW but I'm not interested in making some sub-sets of our data available to a fraction of the present audience. We, NWC, needs totall cross platform support not 'apps for iPhones'.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

    most if not all the innovation has been done already.


That is a VERY negative point of view. Tends to be self fulfilling.
[/quote]

It is a FACT most of the innovation is done with NWC, it is a simple matchmaking site, and it does that just fine on all platforms which are WWW ready. DONE.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...
A lot of the innovations are things you speak disparagingly about like the following statement.

    We are really not interested in having these tools on our own systems and do not advocate it on others'. We intentionally choose not to use NWNx nor NWNcx and will continue to stand firm on that for reasons I won't go into here.
[/quote]

If YOU are comfortable putting a tool on your rig that works by INJECTION you go right ahead and do it. I do not need such a tool nor want it on MY system. IIRC a three or four character command issued in such a device can reformat your system hard drive without confirmation of intent. You may think no hacker will ever figure out how to invoke this software to do bad things, but I will not put the tool on my system to ever be tried by hackers. Safety is my concern. I don't feel the need to point a gun to my head as a 'fashion statement' either, I just don't need it.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I don't mind anyone prefering a website over in game tools, but then i also think it's just wrong to argue everyone should also share that point of view and that certain popular projects in the community should be ignored when the community which SHOULD be using a connection service ( ie PW's ) also is the same group which heavily uses things like NWNx and NWNCX ( and in fact developed them ).[/quote]

Your system does what you want it to do, and I won't tell you how to code or design it, do as you please. I shall do likewise here. I do not need nor do I advocate the use of NWNc nor NWNcx for all the reasons I have stated already. NWC does what it does without any of that stuff and does it well on all WWW ready platforms.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Note that a lot of the innovation relates to how these tools remove prior barriers, ideas like bringing old things like various websites, moving the NWNx into single player ( NWNCX ) ie imagine a player going into a SP module and suddenly able to at the end see comparison scores or others who finished that SP module, a leaderboard just using mySQL on some server with a not very secure public port.[/quote]

If all that is done in NWNcx *shrugs* I could not care. That does nothing to help folks find it who don't have NWNcx, I prefer web based solutions that search engines can read and index. EVERYONE uses search engines, a _significantly_ smaller percentage of people user NWNcx. Such data on the web would be much better in my humble opinion, but of very limited use otherwise. Again, I'm not up for making services available for some, I support ALL WWW ready users.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Also taking ideas you see commonly in silicon valley - which is all I'm stating, and describing how those are not needed.[/quote]

Not all of the ideas from silly-con valley are needed on NWC. One must be selective in choosing such things based on merit, need and how hard it is to integrate them. I see no merit in adding any of these things you suggest to NWC, we just don't need it (see above).

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

To me what you site does - ie connections and events - is very closely inter-related to so many scheduling programs for events. Further your site should be promoting events. Having those events solely on your site, and not using RSS feeds, shared calendars ( so i see events in my personal calendar on my own system ), or not saying the many DM's who have chosen to use NWNx heavily on their worlds should not be able to announce their many events while they are sitting in game shouting via chat that they just decided to start an event which starts in 5 minutes.[/quote]

And all devices I have access to are able to copy/paste. There is NO REASON why anyone using calendar apps or other personal tools cannot copy/paste the important info and make use of it on their own without me having to recode anything on NWC.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Further it is leaving many missed opportunities for not tweeting events when entered and a hour or so before the event is to take place, to not post such on facebook, to not try to broadcast such outside this community.[/quote]

Twitter was not part of the original NWC and so not a part of PHASE ONE, maybe in phase three, maybe. Search engines, those reach the majority of NWN users; Twitter a sub set of that.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Still further is the idea, of publishing your content, which can be simply done in 30 minutes by setting a custom php code to pull upcoming events and list it as simple CSV data, well that would let me add those events to my app, and further make it so any events starting shortly could simply be clicked on by the player, then the player would via my app have any needed files downloaded and installed ( in a safe manner so they cannot conflict with other content ), and be launched into the chosen game - removing the work of typing in an ip address or finding it in the server list. ( not to add this player might have never gone to your site, and might mean instead of 4 players you have 5 players for a session you were planning )[/quote]

Our content IS published on the WWW where the search engines read and index it. RSS was not part of the original NWC and therefore not part of PHASE ONE, it may be added in phase three, maybe. As it is, all our events ARE PRESENTLY CLICKABLE BY THE PLAYER and have more functionality than that, including allowing the player to book a seat at the event. I don't need ten methods to do that, I need ONE that is near universally accessable. This makes minimal work for me, minimal security issues and works just fine. You know, the WWW has been around a couple decades - it really does work and you should try it sometime.

Our intention is even to the point of clickable direct connect should the user desire. We do this on the WWW just fine.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Not to mention "one click" hosting, which lets a DM start a module, click a button inviting people with a message. ( which helps get more people running DM games and perhaps adds more PW's if it's made easier )[/quote]

Please. One click works on NWC too, after you fill in the data about the game (which your description of panacea neglects above) one click does it, even puts it on the search engines. The difference is, our 'one click' is publishing it so the whole WWW can access it, while your 'one click' is publishing it so ONLY USERS OF YOUR NWNC OR NWNCX CAN ACCESS, or tools that tap that data. Again, you reach a sub set and we reach more via the WWW.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Both of which REQUIRE integration with other systems, you have to publish the server so people can find it, and this means using the "popular" means working with the system which "every" PW is now currently using. I think it should involve NWC and that means you have to be less closed. No It is things which REQUIRE an app to do, but this is done without your time, which "moves the mountain to the people instead of expecting them to come to the mountain."[/quote]

Last time I checked ever PW I know of uses the WWW and a very very large number of them could be found in search engines with ease (using skills most WWW users already have) and WWW accessed interface too. I don't know that your system will ever be more 'popular' than say google or yahoo, but I wish you all the luck in the world on that! I think YOUR system works with less than 'every' PW currently, so I'm really not sure what your intended point is in the above paragraph. NWC is just fine as it is and designed very well to work with what I am sure are THE most popular systems on the WWW. You are mistaken if you think apps will work without my time/effort being put in to accomodate them (open as you say) and I don't have the time nor the reason to do that extra make-work. NWC works fine on the WWW (see all the above). The mountain moved by the search engines makes your mound look like the ant hill. I concentrate my efforts on the mountain, thank you.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

( and what i am stating involves trivial work on your part, could even post to a webform to allow adding a game from inside my app )[/quote]

Ah, you do agree it takes my work up front - how is it that that did not make it into the prior paragraph?

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I am pretty sure you see no point to all this, that you prefer just a website since the things i am doing do involve running my software, but then this is for other people who have trouble with how the community expects things to be done now, and are used to console games which see anything harder than hitting play as hard. If what i do makes things faster or easier, it's going to be used by the community.[/quote]

For the first time in this thread you are SPOT ON. I see no point in all this. If the console gamers are using computers, it would behoove them to learn how to use a computer. I already have taken gargantuan efforts to ensure than anyone with access to the WWW can use NWC and the search engines read it too. If all those buttons confuses, just go back to the console. NWN runs on computers, not consoles last I checked. So again, you cater to a sub sub set of NWN where I cater to the whole.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Yes i totally understand the concept of wanting all ideas provided to you, so you can review them, and pick and choose what you want, and get all the credit for making it work ( but then i think that is why you have more reasons for not doing things, than you do for doing things ) - but then that is why i like NWN, it's a game which is not dependent on what is done officially, but rather is full of innovation. The current NWN and NWN2 is full of things like horses, overland maps, spell hooking, database support, even the AI in NWN2 is using the AI the community developed in NWN1, all of which are ideas the owners of the game never thought of. In fact I sometimes think they wish we'd stop upgrading it as everything new they add is going to still have to compete with NWN - NWN2 for example is still competing with NWN1, NWO seems like it's doing a lot worse.
[/quote]

I always give credit where credit is due. You are false in your statement and you disparage me to assert I am such an ingrate.

While NWN has much room for innovation, NWC is a simple match making service and it works as is fully. None of the rest of the above paragraph applies to NWC and I wish you'd stay on the topic which is NWC.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Bioware to it's credit supported all of us doing our own thing, and the spirit of the community is being open and accepting of each other, supportive of whatever efforts regardless of if they are personally going to be used by us.

Of course this is all new ideas, innovation, and i guess this game is too old, the ideas probably have security or legal issues, but then most ideas tend to require such work - I probably should not even try to change the situation.
[/quote]

I am totally supportive of you doing what you please with YOUR NWN. I run NWC and I run it my way, with full support for all devices WWW ready. NWC does not need nor use NWNc nor NWNcx and NWC's lack of invovement in NWNc and NWNcx does nothing to stop you from developing those systems.

[quote]painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Of course I have far more optimism that there are lots of new ideas in this community which none of us have even thought of, than i am that you'd consider an idea you did not think of yourself. I am going to make this vision of mine happen, and to do it I am putting things on the new Vault, i am working to get the skywing API so it is working, and I'd like to also work with your site out of respect for what it was but I am doing my planned features with or without you.

But perhaps your sites niche needs some competition in order to make you understand what should be possible. ( sometimes it's hard for people to hear what is being posted and they have to be shown )[/quote]


Again, do as you please. I have no need nor desire to integrate NWNc nor NWNcx with this NWC system. NONE.

First you want me to support your system now you talk of competing with NWC. OK. I think I and all the readers can clearly see where you are coming from; you'd like our data plus yours to be 'better' than NWC in some sense - I'm not helping you there. I have done what I intended to do, what NWC intended to do and that is make it all available on the web, an OPEN STANDARD.

I encourage you to do as you please, I am sure there are some NWNers out there who will not think twice about adding an MEMORY INJECTION capable tool to their computers and you are welcome to them. . . but do not ask me to work with NWNc nor NWNcx anymore as we understand you fully at this juncture and have no further desire to dialog with you on this topic.

NWC works with all web capable devices and systems, this is by design. We will keep to that design wisdom.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[painofdungeoneternal]

Injection is evil, lol, yet it's part of the OS called microsoft detours, which is a sanctioned method to do it, far better than hex editing the exe file to do the same thing. And anything can do that, even a thing you find on a website with a clever author.

Note my app does not inject, that is ANOTHER project, and my goal here is to support whatever the player wants. It's called making it convenient for the player by putting tools where they are, instead of expecting the player to come to you.

Any software can format your hard drive, in fact a lot of web sites even can do that. I would say this is far more well vetted than NWN was, not even going to get into explorer. By that standard nothing can be done, the vault has no point ( i can do nasty things inside of images even ).

The issue is not what could i do if I was evil, or if virusman was evil, it's the fact that this software is open for peer review and auditing, can be recompiled from source. If he was evil, he would not call himself virusman. None of that opens up holes in which evil people can do bad things, in fact skywing and virusman have closed a lot of holes and exploits.

This stuff was built to fix bugs and errors in the online game, improve performance, and it's done by people who were good enough to have been given symbols and such by the official developers. In fact while NWN2 was still patching, the xp_bugfix would provide a fix until it could be put in the real game and would remove the when the official version fixed the underlying issue. A lot of what you see is driven by necessity.

Methods to enter the game, it's a choice, the system you so dislike supports you fully via 3 websites, but also puts the old listings back in game where they used to be. The actual system is JUST a website which is hidden, and third parties have done all you see.

[ehye_khandee]

http://research.micr...ojects/detours/

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Injection is evil, lol, yet it's part of the OS called microsoft detours, which is a sanctioned method to do it, far better than hex editing the exe file to do the same thing. And anything can do that, even a thing you find on a website with a clever author.

I don't run nor install microsoft garbage. I don't use java nor flash, and I regulate my browser in such a fashion that, no, things on web sites can't do that here. You see, some of us value security enough to keep the doors locked and potentially dangerous tools not on site. The microsoft system you mention is not even part of windows, you have to go download and install it - you know, 'point the gun at your head'. Most users don't have this microsoft system and don't need it.

I never said injection was evil, but it can be used for evil purposes. So I don't let it in my system, no such tools, mickeymouse-crosoft or otherwise.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Note my app does not inject, that is ANOTHER project, and my goal here is to support whatever the player wants. It's called making it convenient for the player by putting tools where they are, instead of expecting the player to come to you.

At this point I don't care what your app does, I will not feed it.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Any software can format your hard drive, in fact a lot of web sites even can do that. I would say this is far more well vetted than NWN was, not even going to get into explorer. By that standard nothing can be done, the vault has no point ( i can do nasty things inside of images even ).

No, 'any software cannot format your hard drive', your use of generalizations is amazing and wrong. As noted I run no java, no flash permitting only HTML and CSS - while there are vectors that present possible inroads, I lock them down. More, I don't surf just any web site, and avoid all the really dangerous places. Yes, I'm well aware that .jpg can contain dangerous code. In spite of the dangers of the web you paint, my rig is fine, has been for decades - I've lost no rig to malware nor hacker.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The issue is not what could i do if I was evil, or if virusman was evil, it's the fact that this software is open for peer review and auditing, can be recompiled from source. If he was evil, he would not call himself virusman. None of that opens up holes in which evil people can do bad things, in fact skywing and virusman have closed a lot of holes and exploits.

Pay attention, the issue is, if I let a tool like that on my system miscreants could use it to damage my system. Hence I don't let such un-needed things on my system. Evil smeevil. The presence of the tool is the hazard, and I won't have any of it. Say what you will, I have no use for it and won't allow it for reasons stated. Since the software we are discussing is skywing and virusman's and you say they have 'closed a lot of holes and exploits' that tells me they inadvertantly built-in lots of holes and exploits and I would surmise they may have a number of such hazards remaining in the code. IDK but I won't waste my time looking either. I don't need it, I won't use it.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

This stuff was built to fix bugs and errors in the online game, improve performance, and it's done by people who were good enough to have been given symbols and such by the official developers. In fact while NWN2 was still patching, the xp_bugfix would provide a fix until it could be put in the real game and would remove the when the official version fixed the underlying issue. A lot of what you see is driven by necessity.

Methods to enter the game, it's a choice, the system you so dislike supports you fully via 3 websites, but also puts the old listings back in game where they used to be. The actual system is JUST a website which is hidden, and third parties have done all you see.

I don't care if 'this stuff was built to cure cancer'. The fact is, it uses MEMORY INJECTION and I won't have such a dangerous and un-needed component on my rig, period. I don't care if God Almighty gave them the holy thumbs up AND the Arc of the Covenant. I am not interested.

For the record, I myself host and work with NWN, so what your systems do for NWN2 don't mean anything for me. Issues NWN2 had are irrelevant to your badgering argument that I should open NWC's databases for you ... yeah, back on topic.

I don't care if the actual system is a chocolate bar atop an ice cream cone, I am not interested. I am not at all interested in sharing that, those 30k members entrusted their data to NWC and I take that trust seriously. No, I won't give you their data.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[KlatchainCoffee]

*eyes and brain hurt from all the reading*

Don't mean to butt in on your sophisticated debate, but from a user standpoint 'competition' makes a lot less sense than 'cooperation'.

In short, if several places were listing servers or games it makes more sense for them to be synchronized, irrespective of which is a better model in respective creators' viewpoint.

Might not some 'middle ground' be found to achieve this without causing a breach in the watertight security that some are trying to achieve?

You are both very clever people and I have faith that if you really want to, you will find a way.  

Modifié par KlatchainCoffee, 08 juin 2013 - 11:48 .

[Urk]

If I might throw in my two cents, I respect both of you but I feel the need to point out that this is Oda's project. He has generously stepped up and donated his valuable time to it, and it seems rather ungrateful to be demanding that he do more work than he's prepared to do or add features and functions that he doesn't want to add.

And all without so much as a "thank you" and a pat on the back for all the work he has already done.

Oda has made it very clear he doesn't want to reinvent the wheel. He wants to recreate the old functionality from the old NWC, and he doesn't want to spend time integrating with other projects. He has patiently offered a laundry list of considered reasons why, over and over, and over again. Whether you agree with them or not you have to admit his decisions are at least reasonable and were derived thoughtfully.

And for the record... I applaud them. Security aside; I'd hate to see NWC disappear in a puff of mission-creep. Oda's first priority is, as it should be, restoring NWC to working condition. Once that's done we can go about the hard work of rebuilding the community and... IF Oda has the time to offer... make tweaks to the site in terms of funtions and features. 

I would also like to say thank you Oda. Once you get the forums back up I will eagerly return to frequenting them, and updating your news feed when and if you restore that feature. And when I get time to run another campaign I look forward to using NWC as my scheduling platform.

BTW...

LARRY ELMORE! For real?! He's without doubt my favorite fantasy theme artist EVER. His cover art from the first edition days is legendary! Please please please tell him I said so!

Modifié par Urk, 09 juin 2013 - 05:47 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

My personal goals are merely to be able to allow one stop shopping for people who are not technical experts, nor who wish to be. I see a desperate need to let players find games to play on, but also to make sure the players can find all the options they have in an easy to use interface, and to make sure all players on a given session have the required content and that it matches the hosts version ( thus preventing instability).

The post here is titled "no one is on NWC". I look on NWC and no games are listed on it. This needs to be addressed instead of stating excuses which do not relate to this issue.

NWC has been down for a LONG time, it is described as up, but it's not being used. I see players in game. I also hear it said it is up, but it does not seem to be used. I do not see the relevance of forums, artwork, better illustrators, nor the many legal, security issues to what needs to happen, however they clearly relate to the speed at which things are happening.

There is a fundamental problem, there needs to be a change in course. NWC is needed, enough that I cannot afford to not attempt to add features to my application so players can do what they should be doing on that site. I can use synergy between the various aspects of what i am doing, to make announcing a DM event a simple checkbox when they launch the DM client. I can open up this so third parties can do it as well via curl, via their own apps in C, in php, whatever. The idea is to find new and innovative ways to get people adding to and searching the events.

I can in effect, do things NWC cannot do, NWC does not want to do, NWC is not in a position to do, and do it without much effort on the part of NWC, just a means of letting third parties do a post which includes credentials and event data, and to list and search upcoming events. In php this should be a very quick project - could even use extra security in a private page, or it could instead sync dynamically. It does not involve user data, just the ip/server name they relate to, the announced event and time, basically just an advertisement all things which i correlate to my listing of gameworlds and the public data describing the event. ( most of this is visible now without logging in, none of this requires security )

Note that NWC has stated they do not want to cooperate with the gamespy solution skywing developed, citing lots of reasons. I am pretty sure this was not an original feature of NWC, and I do not see why this is needed when we have a working solution. Further gamespy being down completely kills the PW community, yet NWC which should have already been providing options immediately, still has not implemented anything in that regard, and we've seen a complete SOAP api, at least 4 websites dedicated to providing listings, a stand alone app for NWN2, and a in game fix which makes it look like it used to for both NWN1 and NWN2, all of which require a lot more reverse engineering and skill than a site designed to provide a listing of events and matchmaking.

I am going to implement a system which works, which goes up quickly, which does not do a lot of what NWC does, but something I can use until such time that NWC decides they want this sort of data to be pushed towards them, if that ever happens. I am NOT doing a website, just an API, it will be only usable by programmers, yet the data will be completely open and easily used or downloaded or viewed by anyone in the community including NWC as a xml or json file. I am only doing a bare minimum of features to support such in my App, soas to not even try to compete head on with NWC. Further i can provide all the coding I am doing for review and usage by them. This is all open and can be used by NWC without talking to me, also by any interested third parties, or I can just use it for my own purposes.

NWC has clearly stated they will not work with what i am doing, and that the segments I am targeting are not areas they even wish to pursue. It is up to them how much they want to do of course, but then I also cannot be held hostage to their whims, that they can split up what is going on with gamespy into their own proprietary listings, yet I cannot make tools to help players find the many DM'd Events which I know are happening every single day, yet which are not currently listed anywhere.

At the end of the day, it takes two people to cooperate, all i can do is agree to let them use what I am doing, and let them decide what they want to do with it based on actual evidence of usage..

[ehye_khandee]

KlatchainCoffee wrote...

*eyes and brain hurt from all the reading*

Don't mean to butt in on your sophisticated debate, but from a user standpoint 'competition' makes a lot less sense than 'cooperation'.

In short, if several places were listing servers or games it makes more sense for them to be synchronized, irrespective of which is a better model in respective creators' viewpoint.

Might not some 'middle ground' be found to achieve this without causing a breach in the watertight security that some are trying to achieve?

You are both very clever people and I have faith that if you really want to, you will find a way.  

Friend KlatchainCoffee,
My apologies for the brain pain, that is not my intention here.

I don't know about a 'middle ground' but there is a BETTER WAY.

I have very real concerns about users, especially those not knowing what it is they have nor really what it is they are doing from a technical standpoint, adding a MEMORY INJECTION capable tool to their computers. Dressing it up as a 'fix' for NWN is disturbing to my way of thinking. The easy and SAFE way? MAKE A NEW NWN LAUNCHING PROGRAM. This does NOT violate the EULA. Has the same disadvantage as the one P.o.Dungeon's system has (that being nobody has it initially and must go find/install it). A launcher could access a database of servers and other info, and generate the direct connect command line to connect to any server on the internet. Such a system could also be built to 'test connect' and determine if haks were missing. This CAN be done with out having (pardon my use of the word in a very honest sense) ignorant users install potentially harmful software on their own systems.

Yes, this method does not populate the list of servers we all once knew internal to NWN, but it does the task of allowing the 'one click' and to do it SAFELY.

I have long gotten the impression that this P.o.Dungeon does not really want to work together, but desires either to argue with me incessantly in the public forum (business discussions belong in private emails not public forums - but if anyone insists on such a public discussion eventually I will use plain terms rather than try to gloss over dangers and NOT cause a panic in the bulk of the readers ... the public) - or, to get me to open the NWC database to anyone's pilferage. 30k users have email addies and other data entrusted to NWC and I honor their trust, I will not share that data. Initially I expressed that I was willing to share the server data in some fashion, but that did not seem to suffice so I must inferr that it is the rest of the data, such as email addresses, that is desired by P.o.Dungeon.

I have yet to see any persuasive and logical argument to induce me to change my stance on any of this and I have detailed the reasons why in posts above.

Urk wrote...

If I might throw in my two cents, I respect both of you but I feel the need to point out that this is Oda's project. He has generously stepped up and donated his valuable time to it, and it seems rather ungrateful to be demanding that he do more work than he's prepared to do or add features and functions that he doesn't want to add.

And all without so much as a "thank you" and a pat on the back for all the work he has already done.

Oda has made it very clear he doesn't want to reinvent the wheel. He wants to recreate the old functionality from the old NWC, and he doesn't want to spend time integrating with other projects. He has patiently offered a laundry list of considered reasons why, over and over, and over again. Whether you agree with them or not you have to admit his decisions are at least reasonable and were derived thoughtfully.

And for the record... I applaud them. Security aside; I'd hate to see NWC disappear in a puff of mission-creep. Oda's first priority is, as it should be, restoring NWC to working condition. Once that's done we can go about the hard work of rebuilding the community and... IF Oda has the time to offer... make tweaks to the site in terms of funtions and features.

I would also like to say thank you Oda. Once you get the forums back up I will eagerly return to frequenting them, and updating your news feed when and if you restore that feature. And when I get time to run another campaign I look forward to using NWC as my scheduling platform.

BTW...

LARRY ELMORE! For real?! He's without doubt my favorite fantasy theme artist EVER. His cover art from the first edition days is legendary! Please please please tell him I said so!

In inverse order somewhat....

Yes, THE Larry Elmore, and yes, he's long been a favorite artist of mine and almost as long a good friend. We fell out of touch for a while, my health issues took me out as an active player in the industry, but in times of need, we call on our friends and so I called Larry. It had been a decade, more, and I was so very pleased to hear his voice and know he still remembered me too. I really do miss my annual dinner with Larry - but getting around at a big convention like that is just not something I can do anymore. I can tell you that Larry is a genuine fellow, honest, affable; a regular guy. I will forward your exact words to Larry, and I'm sure he'll appreciate them, so I'll thank you on his behalf.


You are welcome URK, and community. Thank you for recognizing the work done here in service to the community. I simply MUST give proper credit to Erin aka Eriniel who did the bulk of the 'heavy lifting' on the PHP side and is just a total genius. NWC would not be today without her.

As regards neverwinterconnections.com I would like to emphasize again that it is open and functional. The ONLY parts not yet connected are the forum and new member registration system - the former relies on the latter so they progress together. The code is ready but we have been advertising the need for art (and the reasons why) for a year now. Anyone could and should be using NWC  to schedule events for NWN and NWN2 if they have an account there. The only NWNers left out are those who have no existing NWC account and well, we need the art first before we can enable that.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

My personal goals are merely to be able to allow one stop shopping for people who are not technical experts, nor who wish to be. I see a desperate need to let players find games to play on, but also to make sure the players can find all the options they have in an easy to use interface, and to make sure all players on a given session have the required content and that it matches the hosts version ( thus preventing instability).

The post here is titled "no one is on NWC". I look on NWC and no games are listed on it. This needs to be addressed instead of stating excuses which do not relate to this issue.

On the first part, I wish you success, but I do not feel it must be done by means of getting users to download and install a system for MEMORY INJECTION, these can be very dangerous and in the hands of the unsuspecting potentially very very harmful. Again, once you install software on your system it is there, local to your system and usually has PERMISSIONS that allow it to do things of which most users are unaware.

I maintain that a quality LAUNCHER would be a better method and not require MEMORY INJECTION as a method. Simply have the software assemble the command line to launch the game direct connect.

I do agree that the old users should be posting their games on NWC - the functionality is there and has been since JUNE 2012 with only a 1.5 month lapse of service from the precipitous closure of the old site.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

NWC has been down for a LONG time, it is described as up, but it's not being used. I see players in game. I also hear it said it is up, but it does not seem to be used. I do not see the relevance of forums, artwork, better illustrators, nor the many legal, security issues to what needs to happen, however they clearly relate to the speed at which things are happening.

No, the site has NOT BEEN DOWN A LONG TIME. The site was down from March 30, 2012 until April 30, 2012 while we rebuilt it from scratch. Portions of the site where released in phasese from April 30 through June 10 of that year. Not being used is NOT the same as the site being down. Disinformation such as you continue to post has a negative impact on getting users to access the site.

You continue to - from outside the project - nay say my decisions. That is fine, that is your right to express your opinion. I state a simple fact, you know nothing of the 'inside view' here and your perspective is less than optimal proceeding from that fact of ignorance.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

There is a fundamental problem, there needs to be a change in course. NWC is needed, enough that I cannot afford to not attempt to add features to my application so players can do what they should be doing on that site. I can use synergy between the various aspects of what i am doing, to make announcing a DM event a simple checkbox when they launch the DM client. I can open up this so third parties can do it as well via curl, via their own apps in C, in php, whatever. The idea is to find new and innovative ways to get people adding to and searching the events.

Fine, go for it, but don't ask me to endorse the thing. Best wishes to you.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I can in effect, do things NWC cannot do, NWC does not want to do, NWC is not in a position to do, and do it without much effort on the part of NWC, just a means of letting third parties do a post which includes credentials and event data, and to list and search upcoming events. In php this should be a very quick project - could even use extra security in a private page, or it could instead sync dynamically. It does not involve user data, just the ip/server name they relate to, the announced event and time, basically just an advertisement all things which i correlate to my listing of gameworlds and the public data describing the event. ( most of this is visible now without logging in, none of this requires security )

Earlier in the thread I offered some level of interoperability and you had a hissy fit insisting that I must open the data set to all. I say to that BALDERDASH. If your systems at any point require any user at any level to install software capable of MEMORY INJECTION I am not at all interested in working with you - I won't be that fashion trend setter with a brain-pointed revolver as part of my new hat. I will not lead the NWN community in that very dangerous direction.

I am not being just a nay-sayer here, I offered a solution to this in the paragraphs above.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Note that NWC has stated they do not want to cooperate with the gamespy solution skywing developed, citing lots of reasons. I am pretty sure this was not an original feature of NWC, and I do not see why this is needed when we have a working solution. Further gamespy being down completely kills the PW community, yet NWC which should have already been providing options immediately, still has not implemented anything in that regard, and we've seen a complete SOAP api, at least 4 websites dedicated to providing listings, a stand alone app for NWN2, and a in game fix which makes it look like it used to for both NWN1 and NWN2, all of which require a lot more reverse engineering and skill than a site designed to provide a listing of events and matchmaking.

Right, I won't be a part of nor endorse a system that has users install such a dangerous tool on their systems especially when there are safer better solutions. Your solution would not fix the 'gamespy being down part', you see, new players old players, until they discover and install your (dangerous) tools cannot benefit from your solution. For those you do not reach (at this point I'm sure a majority since the game is 10+ years old) gamespy listing would still be blank.

It is all well and good of you to air an opinion such as this but I will point out the salient factors here 'your goal is not part of the original NWC design and our goal was in phase one to get the unique features of the original NWC online'. We accomplished our goal. Gamespy being down does note 'completely kill the PW community'. Remember, NWN uses the Internet, the Internet includes the World Wide Web, the WWW includes both forums and web pages and is all indexable by search engines. All users of the WWW are generally familiar with search engines and in fact these are the most accessed sites on the WWW and have been for a decade or more. When stumped by somthing, especially online, it is second nature to the WWW user to seek an answer via search engine and THAT is where the solution lay.

Allow the confused user to find a site that will answer the questions they have such as 'how do I find a NWN server' and the goal is met. Requiring that user to then jump through more hoops such as installing software (and not telling the user how potentially dangerous the methods used in the software you are pushing) is frankly a less than optimal solution, and unduely hazardous.

May I also note the 'reverse engineering' stuff is covered in the NWN EULA from Bioware, which I am pretty sure is being violated by these systems you are pushing.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I am going to implement a system which works, which goes up quickly, which does not do a lot of what NWC does, but something I can use until such time that NWC decides they want this sort of data to be pushed towards them, if that ever happens. I am NOT doing a website, just an API, it will be only usable by programmers, yet the data will be completely open and easily used or downloaded or viewed by anyone in the community including NWC as a xml or json file. I am only doing a bare minimum of features to support such in my App, soas to not even try to compete head on with NWC. Further i can provide all the coding I am doing for review and usage by them. This is all open and can be used by NWC without talking to me, also by any interested third parties, or I can just use it for my own purposes.

Best wishes to you.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

NWC has clearly stated they will not work with what i am doing, and that the segments I am targeting are not areas they even wish to pursue. It is up to them how much they want to do of course, but then I also cannot be held hostage to their whims, that they can split up what is going on with gamespy into their own proprietary listings, yet I cannot make tools to help players find the many DM'd Events which I know are happening every single day, yet which are not currently listed anywhere.

At the end of the day, it takes two people to cooperate, all i can do is agree to let them use what I am doing, and let them decide what they want to do with it based on actual evidence of usage..

In the face of constant badgering and unprofessional public dialog rather than professional private discussion, I am fairly well convinced that it would be a huge mistake to work with you in any way. I previously offered to share server data with you in this very thread but you continued to insist I must open up the database of NWC - and I will not for the reasons stated. I will protect the user data of the NWC Members to the best of my ability.

We do not do 'proprietary, that is your baliwick, we do open standards.

Based on your continually demonstrated lack of professional acumen throughout this thread and elsewhere, I continue to be utterly disinterested in working with you. You have initiated not a private discussion of business / cooperative opportunity but instead opted for disruptive and chaotic public posting.

neverwinterconnections.com is and has been open since June of 2012 after a brief 1.5 month outtage for total overhaul.

All exisiting NWC Members are welcome and encouraged to use the system to post their game events. Even non-members can access the event postings. As soon as we can wrangle the art based new-member system into place (pending only art) we will open the new member signup and the forum. This has been the stated case since the day of our reopening NWC.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

http://neverwinterconnections.com

[painofdungeoneternal]

I don't need access to users, nor is anything I am describing not content which can't be fully public on your front page - just something advertised. And to me it's mainly because i believe data like that should be shared, and my main issue is how to let end users ( with THEIR credentials, i have no access to that, if such is needed ) can use more convenient means to add their events ( which would get some content on that front page ).

I don't engage in private pm's because you term my private pm's badgering as well, and the private discussions look no different than this with statements about needing public discussion.

My systems allow anything which you find on the vault, nexus, community, etc. So yes it involves things that involve injection, jiggly things, custom programs, quite a few things I won't ever use and modules and pw's i would never ever visit.

A launcher could access a database of servers and other info, and generate the direct connect command line to connect to any server on the internet. Such a system could also be built to 'test connect' and determine if haks were missing. This CAN be done with out having (pardon my use of the word in a very honest sense) ignorant users install potentially harmful software on their own systems.

This is my program you are describing.

You have a problem with someone else's product for which i provide an option to support in addition to the method you prefer. ( if they install it, which requires their choice, it will also require clicking a checkbox )

May I also note the 'reverse engineering' stuff is covered in the NWN EULA from Bioware, which I am pretty sure is being violated by these systems you are pushing.

The systems being used, are using symbols provided by bioware and obsidian, and the people involved have long been supported. As such I think it very hard to think anything illegal is going on.

As for reverse engineering gamespy, they can term it illegal, but reverse engineering is allowed under the law for the purposes described, and they are NOT using anything resembling the gamespy system and instead are using an industry standard for creating listings ( using soap cannot be termed infringing on anything gamespy is doing ).

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 09 juin 2013 - 04:26 .

[NWN DM]

I think I have brain damage now. Just went to NWC... it is there but it certainly doesn't look used.

My time with NWN and NWN2 is long since done, but it is a shame the community doesn't have this resource.

[ehye_khandee]

NWN DM wrote...

I think I have brain damage now. Just went to NWC... it is there but it certainly doesn't look used.

My time with NWN and NWN2 is long since done, but it is a shame the community doesn't have this resource.

Amazing just amazing. I think we can confirm the brain damage.

The resource IS there. It does function. Used or not, it is there, is it available, it does work. . . despite these misleading posts to the contrary.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[painofdungeoneternal]

The issue is not whether it works or not, or if it's how it used to be.

The issue is, an outsider who knows nothing, really won't know it works. It could be the best and most perfect site on the internet, but it's like hearing a tree falling in an empty forest. It is our social network, and despite it having that many users, for whatever reason, it's not actually actively being used by real users ( and the usage is more by members of NWC by and large ).

We need to get past the details that don't matter. Stop thinking in terms of law, of graphic design, of security, or what users should and should not use which is on the vault, and start thinking about how to market it soas to get it heavily used again. Note that when it was lively, the community was different, it has to adapt to what the community needs today.

And, despite not knowing all the internal issues, which probably is making it hard to see the issues, can say that the reason this thread is titled how it is, by a completely new user, is partially based on the structure of your front page, which proclaims how there isn't anything going on for 7 days ( and for the last 7 days ), there are 0 people online, and what i suspect are lots of other categories where nothing is going on. ( where adjusting the 7 to 14 would show that event on the 20th for which you only begin seeing on the 13th )

The other aspect is pushing, cajoling, bargaining with DM's to list their events there, then working with the loud members of the community to new players, and ex players, to use it to get people into PW's and Lan games. It means going to where the users are now, and not expecting them to come to you.

( Note that I am trying to offer my skills to actually push DMs to put more events on YOUR site, using tools which they probably already have installed and thus cross promoting, and for people using both NWN1 and NWN2 to tend to find those events and your site. )

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 11 juin 2013 - 03:45 .

[NWN DM]

ehye_khandee wrote...

NWN DM wrote...

I think I have brain damage now. Just went to NWC... it is there but it certainly doesn't look used.

My time with NWN and NWN2 is long since done, but it is a shame the community doesn't have this resource.

Amazing just amazing. I think we can confirm the brain damage.

The resource IS there. It does function. Used or not, it is there, is it available, it does work. . . despite these misleading posts to the contrary.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Well, I only have myself to blame for reading all this.  Thank heavens we get to insult each other through open posts instead of relying on PMs now (!).

Happily I'm getting all my on-line D&D gaming (and Rolemaster) from Fantasy Grounds now, although a little bit of me is sad that my zeal for NWN and NWN2 died.  I run three regular campaigns on FG in a mere insignificant fraction of the prep time that I needed for NWN and NWN2.

Personally I never thought your communication style did your efforts any favours, but different personalities and all that. 

I wish you a lot of luck in getting your new NWC more actively used.  Looking at my signature, one might possibly think I would be exactly the kind of (heavy) former NWC user to try attract back.

Cheers!

Modifié par NWN DM, 12 juin 2013 - 03:27 .

[ehye_khandee]

NWN DM wrote...

Happily I'm getting all my on-line D&D gaming (and
Rolemaster) from Fantasy Grounds now, although a little bit of me is sad
that my zeal for NWN and NWN2 died.  I run three regular campaigns on
FG in a mere insignificant fraction of the prep time that I needed for
NWN and NWN2.

Personally I never thought your communication style did your efforts any favours, but different personalities and all that. 

I
wish you a lot of luck in getting your new NWC more actively used. 
Looking at my signature, one might possibly think I would be exactly the
kind of (heavy) former NWC user to try attract back.

Cheers!

You have been a consistent detractor to all my efforts online. You have also stated you are not playing NWN anymore. Why I would want to expend effort to bring you back to NWN and nwc is beyond me. I can appreciate that you continue to not be a fan of my work, but that is OK and very consistent with your past posts and positions. I get it, YOU don't like me, and that is OK with me. I do good work, and you are free to move on - it does not bother me in the least. I wish you well regardless.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I don't engage in private pm's because you term my private pm's badgering as well, and the private discussions look no different than this with statements about needing public discussion.

You are making wild statements here utterly without merit. Consistency is your strong suit I see. Private messages is how professionals conduct business. Public posts of rambling chaos and derision do not qualify. Your poor english and most especially your lack of business acument mean I will not work with you. Period. I am done in this thread, I have said all I care to say and I am DONE HERE.

It is a simple fact neverwinterconnections.com is online and working fine, and has been since June of last year. All with accounts there are welcome to login and post their game events.

To all: Please disregard the vast tracts of disinformation being spread about neverwinterconnections.com by those who would compete with that site. neverwinterconnections.com is online, functional and available to all users with internet access and WWW capabilities. No special app is required, nor useful in this task.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

P.S. merriam-webster has this to say on badgering

Definition of BADGER : to harass or annoy persistently Examples of BADGERShe finally badgered me into cutting my hair.

Modifié par ehye_khandee, 13 juin 2013 - 02:23 .

[Baaleos]

On the topic of neverwinterconnections.com
Is this site going to be developed further, perhaps to the point where the debug messages and dm of the month images function?

Just offering constructive criticism but it does look like it is still amidst early development and not quite at a release candidate state.
Eg the three test messages, at top of page.

[ehye_khandee]

Baaleos wrote...

On the topic of neverwinterconnections.com
Is this site going to be developed further, perhaps to the point where the debug messages and dm of the month images function?

Just offering constructive criticism but it does look like it is still amidst early development and not quite at a release candidate state.
Eg the three test messages, at top of page.

Friend Baaleos,
Phase one of of the rebuild of neverwinterconections.com was released last May-June. Since that time we have had a standing request out for art (some of which is essential to the release of phase two).
Be that as it may, the site is fully functional. If you have an account with neverwinterconnections.com just login with your old username and password and  you can schedule games, join scheduled games, etc.. At present, you see three like non-game events scheduled there (I added them myself as a method of telling other DMs that if they don't know how to use the site, we will help them get a handle on it). These three events appear largely the same but are actually the same event on successive saturday afternoons.

Join us!

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[virusman]

I might be a bit late to the party, but anyway, I just want to clarify for those who have read this topic and might've been misled by GM_ODA's posts.
Memory injection is a method of interfacing with NWN process and it does not change anything in the user's system. It's not a service, it does not open anything on the system and NWNX/NWNCX code only runs when you run NWN.
If anyone doesn't want to use something with scary words like 'memory injection' and 'reverse engineering', or from someone called virusman, it's your choice, but then it doesn't have anything to do with the actual software.

Modifié par virusman, 19 juin 2013 - 09:58 .

[Urk]

I am very disappointed with all the personal sniping that's been going on in here.

As one of my favorite modders, a fella in Germany named Wolfman, likes to say, "I do things my way. If you don't like it do it better yourself". This community needs to take a lesson from this, I think. We need to appreciate one another's contributions, and respect their decisions whether we agree with them entirely or not.

We need to get off our own backs here, folks.

In any event I would like to throw my voice out there in support of GM_ODA's efforts. He's done a ton of work getting NWC up and running from nothing, and I for one appreciate his volunteering his time.

I'd also like to personally vouch for virusman. He's a long standing member of this community with an impeccable reputation for doing great work.

Nobody is accusing anyone of distributing malware! Even at his most miffed ODA never implied that any other member of the community was acting with any malice. And virusman is right, memory injection is not in and of itself dangerous. I trust him and pain implicitly and fully intend to continue to use their tools in the future. ODA is also right, however, in that memory injection CAN be used maliciously, but I do not think that even he believes that Pain's team has any such intentions.

I wholeheartedly endorse BOTH the NWC project, and Pain's Gamespy work-around. Both are excellent additions to the community, and I intend to use both.

Modifié par Urk, 21 juin 2013 - 04:23 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

It's not my gamespy workaround. I am just another individual doing their own project using it, and my project would actually work the exact same way if we still had gamespy and this was not needed.

What you saw with the gamespy fix is not a team, but rather the entire community working together to solve a problem.

Please credit Skywing, and make no assumption that I know him any better than you do, he's just a fellow community member who I happen to respect highly and we are doing totally separate projects which happen to cooperate.

[Squatting Monk]

Urk wrote...

Nobody is accusing anyone of distributing malware! Even at his most miffed ODA never implied that any other member of the community was acting with any malice.

I dunno. The implications of statements like the following are pretty clear:

If your systems at any point require any user at any level to install software capable of MEMORY INJECTION I am not at all interested in working with you - I won't be that fashion trend setter with a brain-pointed revolver as part of my new hat. I will not lead the NWN community in that very dangerous direction.

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 21 juin 2013 - 08:15 .

[Urk]

Shout out to Skywing. I was not trying to exclude credit!

Squatting, ODA was angry when he wrote that, but examine it closely. He is right in that memory injection CAN be exploited maliciously, but nowhere AT ANY POINT does ODA accuse anyone of actually trying to do so. He is adamantly opposed to opening NWC users to such an exploit, however, and that is his right. Personally I trust the people currently involved with this project, and vouch for them whole heartedly. But, as is ALWAYS the case with open source projects, an unscrupulous developer could use it to plant malware even without the project devs consent and plant the corrupted version on a variety of free download sites (including the vault, pay attention to who the uploader is). While the small user base makes this exceedingly unlikely I am not prepared to promise this couldn't happen in the future any more than ODA is.

[Squatting Monk]

That's fair, of course. But Oda's comment was not. It's over-the-top to say that using NWNCX is putting a gun to your head. Pain and virusman were right to take issue.

[painofdungeoneternal]

It is also assuming that no checksums ( adler, crc32, md5, sha1 ) will be done ( via Neverlauncher and for the Vault 2.0 ), and that this is more likely with an "injecting" application than it is with ANY OTHER APPLICATION you install on your system.

There is right now some possible issues until my entire system is implemented, but even then it's exaggerating the risks. ( NWNx for example is about 6 months younger than NWN1 and I don't think we've had issues yet like that )

We need to respect the players choices, and they do have a valid choice of using NWNx/NWNCX, and a valid choice of not using it in any way. By that same token we should respect the features the players have chosen, and work on innovating new ways to improve their experience whereever they prefer.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 22 juin 2013 - 01:25 .

[WhiZard]

Squatting Monk wrote...

That's fair, of course. But Oda's comment was not. It's over-the-top to say that using NWNCX is putting a gun to your head. Pain and virusman were right to take issue.

You are also quite forward in assuming the "gun" is virusman or Pain.  From what I am reading the "gun" is EA the trigger is a EULA violation and the bullet is legal recourse.