213 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

David7204 wrote...

You've already heard my considerable objections to the Klendagon Cannon. And I'll ignore for the moment that the Leviathan is in batarian space.

Let's rewrite things a bit. The Klendagon Cannon and Leviathan do not exist. Boom. They're gone. As of ME 2, the Council has scoured the galaxy for clues and found nothing. Now what do they do?

The Batarians may be terrorist bastards, but they don't want to die any more than anyone else does.  Given sufficient reason (and Reapers are sufficient reasons), the Batarians would play ball.  As for your objections about the Klendagon cannon, well it EXISTS in canon, so your objections don't amount to a proverbial hill of bad beans.

-Polaris

[Mr.House]

Ryzaki wrote...

Arcian wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's a pretty petty complaint, and if Shepard romances Tali it's addressed in dialogue.

Guns like the Reverent and Lancer are good because putting crap weapons in games that nobody uses is poor game design and a waste of resources.

Then what about the Locust?

I loved the Locust in ME2.

I don't know wtf they did to it in ME3.

ME2 Locust was a dlc weapon, thus it has to be very powerful. Locus in ME3 is a base game weapon thus it has to be balanced.  Basic game design.

[Arcian]

David7204 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Because its range allows it to link up with every Relay in the galaxy, similarly to the Alpha Relay.

It sounds to me like that would require modifying the original relays somehow to accept a new relay into their network. The Reapers wouldn't notice the Relays had been tampered with?

Possibly, if they're actually concerned with regularly checking the network for minor additions to what could potentially be billions of relays. Let's presume they do find an anomaly - would they really think to look in the LMC for it? It would be so much safer to assume that some to-be-harvested race reverse-engineered a relay and then tried, successfully or unsuccessfully, to incorporate it into the network. Assuming adding a relay to the network even leaves some form of handprint. Could very well be that it doesn't. We can't say for sure.

Even if they by some miracle do catch on and bother to check out the LMC, it has over 30 billion stars. That's provided they don't check out the dwarf galaxies closer to the Milky Way first. Considering their 30LY/day limit, combing through those star systems for a "could-be" relay seems like an insane waste of time, effort and energy. But then again, the Reapers are complete retards with little to no sense of logic or reason, so I can totally see it happening.

[Nerevar-as]

Ecrulis wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

That excuse works in ME1 before Sovereign attacks, but not after, especially since the Citadel DLC shows they knew Sovereign was a reaper and not a geth ship.

Hoo boy. Okay. You're in the Council's position. You know the Reapers are invading. So what exactly do you do to prepare?

You start a crash building, hardening, and research upgrade program starting with the remnants of Sovereign.  You then scour the galaxy for clues as to how to beat this thing, and there are a LOT of clues out there (not just the Crucible).

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also note that the timing of the entire series does not bear up under any kind of scrutiny.  If the Reapers (who don't have a specific lifespan and have lived for millions and millions of years) can reach our galaxy in overwhelming force in only three years, why bother with the Citadel, and the decapitation strike at all?  When Sovereign first signal failed (just before the Rachni wars), simply go in and harvest the galaxy by brute force.  There would have been no Turians, Humans, or Krogan.  The Reapers would have facerolled the galaxy.

In my opinion this sadly goes back to poor planning, it seems the story for each game was not written with its sequel or the previous game in mind.

It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2 for instance ended up as complete filler.

[IanPolaris]

Nerevar-as wrote...

It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2 for instance ended up as complete filler.

Which is a huge mistake if you want to generate a world that your players can relate to.

-Polaris

[Arcian]

Ecrulis wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

That excuse works in ME1 before Sovereign attacks, but not after, especially since the Citadel DLC shows they knew Sovereign was a reaper and not a geth ship.

Hoo boy. Okay. You're in the Council's position. You know the Reapers are invading. So what exactly do you do to prepare?

You start a crash building, hardening, and research upgrade program starting with the remnants of Sovereign.  You then scour the galaxy for clues as to how to beat this thing, and there are a LOT of clues out there (not just the Crucible).

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also note that the timing of the entire series does not bear up under any kind of scrutiny.  If the Reapers (who don't have a specific lifespan and have lived for millions and millions of years) can reach our galaxy in overwhelming force in only three years, why bother with the Citadel, and the decapitation strike at all?  When Sovereign first signal failed (just before the Rachni wars), simply go in and harvest the galaxy by brute force.  There would have been no Turians, Humans, or Krogan.  The Reapers would have facerolled the galaxy.

In my opinion this sadly goes back to poor planning, it seems the story for each game was not written with its sequel or the previous game in mind.

That, sir, is the problem at its root.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

The majority of ME3's "plot-holes" are little more than situations where something appears to be somewhat inconsistent only when glanced at, mainly due to a lack of exposition. It's not so much that just forgot or hastily changed something, but more that they glazed over certain bits of information because they wanted to change the story without disrupting the pacing. It's largely effective, I'd say.

[David7204]

IanPolaris wrote...

\\The Batarians may be terrorist bastards, but they don't want to die any more than anyone else does.  Given sufficient reason (and Reapers are sufficient reasons), the Batarians would play ball.  As for your objections about the Klendagon cannon, well it EXISTS in canon, so your objections don't amount to a proverbial hill of bad beans.

As far as ME 2, these two things could have been entirely removed and it would have made a miniscule impact on the story. It would be exactly the same. You're pushing these clues as an obvious, certain, rock-solid solution. And they just aren't. They just as easily could not have existed and the story would be exactly the same.

Modifié par David7204, 28 mai 2013 - 08:43 .

[Bleachrude]

Was the war winnable?

I don't think so without changing what the reapers are given what we saw of ME1 and ME2.

What also hurts is the fans thinking that since INDIVIDUAL reapers can be beaten, this means that the entirety of the reaper forces can be beaten. This, I admittedly don't get with fans as there have been loads of historical battles where one side has inflicted casualties on the other but the outcome was NEVER in doubt (WWII and the Civil war with Japan vs America and the South vs the North respectively)

You can't have the reapers exist for so long without them having a contingency plan...you also cant have reapers being created from each species (the assumption was that there was only 1 capital reaper per race but that doesn't jive with the fact that an almost fully formed reaper was created using only a couple hundred thousand colonists..)

You cant have reaper simply smashing into a ship on purpose and not even slowing it down (do people understand the KE that Sovereign had to subject itself to when it bowled over the turian cruiser?)

The conversation with Sovereign should NOT have the words "our numbers will darken the skies of all worlds" - ME3 actually contradicts this by having it so that many worlds weren't attacked yet

They can't be machines/mostly machines as it pretty much eliminates their logistic train and thus eliminating one angle of attack.

ME FTL can NOT be "go anywhere/anytime" a la warp travel of Trek.... One of the aspects of ME FTL is that if a person doesn't want to be in a battle, there's literally nothing stopping a person from escaping unless you kill them.

There's no checkpoint wormhole/travelgate. There's no ramping up of the drive engines for hours etc. combined with the no logistics train, it should be impossible to actually *force* a battle with reapers since they have no worlds to protect.


In other words, you either need to make reapers a lot more mundane (basically, organic with a supply train and with normal baggage like a populace that works to provide things like fuel, weapon parts etc) or you need a miracle.

[Nerevar-as]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2 for instance ended up as complete filler.

Which is a huge mistake if you want to generate a world that your players can relate to.

-Polaris

Sadly, AAA games look to be following most movie blockbusters policy. Get as much as possible at launch, and everything else is secondary. Thus the catering to new players over good writing, and so on. But not all of the bad writing came from thus. hearing Shepard´s "badass" lines really made me miss 80s action movies. They did cheesy and epic well. Walters however seems to have learnt from Bay and company.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Nerevar-as wrote...
It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2 for instance ended up as complete filler.

ME2 has always been filler. The very enemy it introduces is defeated at the game's end, and the only significant development is some trivial information about Reaper mating habits. Sure, you can decide to keep or destory the base, but with the Arrival imminent, what good can it do?

However, ME3 did go out of its way to acknowledge much of ME2's side content. So, really, only the main plot became filler, but it was filler in the first place

Modifié par Leonardo the Magnificent, 28 mai 2013 - 08:47 .

[Mr.House]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

That excuse works in ME1 before Sovereign attacks, but not after, especially since the Citadel DLC shows they knew Sovereign was a reaper and not a geth ship.

Hoo boy. Okay. You're in the Council's position. You know the Reapers are invading. So what exactly do you do to prepare?

You start a crash building, hardening, and research upgrade program starting with the remnants of Sovereign.  You then scour the galaxy for clues as to how to beat this thing, and there are a LOT of clues out there (not just the Crucible).

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also note that the timing of the entire series does not bear up under any kind of scrutiny.  If the Reapers (who don't have a specific lifespan and have lived for millions and millions of years) can reach our galaxy in overwhelming force in only three years, why bother with the Citadel, and the decapitation strike at all?  When Sovereign first signal failed (just before the Rachni wars), simply go in and harvest the galaxy by brute force.  There would have been no Turians, Humans, or Krogan.  The Reapers would have facerolled the galaxy.

In my opinion this sadly goes back to poor planning, it seems the story for each game was not written with its sequel or the previous game in mind.

It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2 for instance ended up as complete filler.

ME2 was a complete filler before ME3 hit production. Each game was designed and made to be stand alone.

[Nerevar-as]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2 for instance ended up as complete filler.

ME2 has always been filler. The very enemy it introduces is defeated at the game's end, and the only significant development is some trivial information about Reaper mating habits. Sure, you can decide to keep or destory the base, but with the Arrival imminent, what good can it do?

However, ME3 did go out of its way to acknowledge much of ME2's side content. So, really, only the main plot became filler, but it was filler in the first place

Most of the squad was filler too. It´s hard to believe they gave Miranda such plot armor for what she amounted to in ME3. And so many choices just amounting to an insignificant change in a number.

[Arcian]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Walters however seems to have learnt from Bay and company.

To be fair to Michael Bay, he KNOWS he's doing cheesy movies with excessive explosions. He doesn't even try to pretend otherwise.

It's fair to say Casey and Walters took themselves way more seriously.

[Mr.House]

Miranda had plot armor in ME2?

[Sebby]

Walters in the league of Ed Wood, Coleman Francis and the like. The man couldn't plot himself out of a wet paper bag if his life depended on it.

[Bleachrude]

Really..there are 12 possible squadmates that are killable (well, 13 if you count Morinth, but she can't exist without Samara dying so let's stick with 12).

How exactly are you going to account for ALL 12 of them in one single game?

EDIT: Miranda and plot armour
Miranda doesn't have plot armour..well, except for one part of the suicide mission..if you Miranda not loyal as the 2nd fireteam leader, she'll survive unlike garrus and jacob who have to be loyal.

But it is quite possible to kill a non-loyal Miranda in the game though...(bring a non-loyal miranda to the final fight and she dies for example)

Modifié par Bleachrude, 28 mai 2013 - 09:02 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2 for instance ended up as complete filler.

ME2 has always been filler. The very enemy it introduces is defeated at the game's end, and the only significant development is some trivial information about Reaper mating habits. Sure, you can decide to keep or destory the base, but with the Arrival imminent, what good can it do?

However, ME3 did go out of its way to acknowledge much of ME2's side content. So, really, only the main plot became filler, but it was filler in the first place

Most of the squad was filler too. It´s hard to believe they gave Miranda such plot armor for what she amounted to in ME3. And so many choices just amounting to an insignificant change in a number.

Of course some of the squad is going to be filler. You can't have every character maintain his or her importance with a dynamic cast. I'm surprised they represented most characters as well as they did, honestly. I mean, what did you expect? That all 10 squadmates get their own personal plot that spans the game? There's only so much that can be done, and I'd say that they did a very commendable job.

Modifié par Leonardo the Magnificent, 28 mai 2013 - 08:57 .

[Mr.House]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2 for instance ended up as complete filler.

ME2 has always been filler. The very enemy it introduces is defeated at the game's end, and the only significant development is some trivial information about Reaper mating habits. Sure, you can decide to keep or destory the base, but with the Arrival imminent, what good can it do?

However, ME3 did go out of its way to acknowledge much of ME2's side content. So, really, only the main plot became filler, but it was filler in the first place

Most of the squad was filler too. It´s hard to believe they gave Miranda such plot armor for what she amounted to in ME3. And so many choices just amounting to an insignificant change in a number.

Of course some of the squad is going to be filler. You can't have every character maintain his or her importance with a dynamic cast. I'm surprised they represented most characters as well as they did, honestly. I mean, what did you expect? That all 10 squadmates get their own personal plot that spans the game? There's only so much that can be done, and I'd say that they did a very commendable job.

No they didn't, they did a very poor job. The squadmates in ME2 where just walking cutouts that only came alive during their 15 minutes of fame.

[ShadowLordXII]

Eva hospitalizing Ashley/Kaiden on Mars even though that whole scenario was contrived and tried way too hard to be dramatic.

There were at least five different points when Shepard or Liara could have taken out Eva before she knocked out Ashley/Kaiden.

When Shepard first comes out, he/she has a clear line of sight to half of Eva's body including her head. Considering that Shepard's marksmanship is pretty high after three years of service regardless of class, then Shepard shouldn't have any problem with shooting out an eye or causing enough damage to make her let go of Ashley/Kaiden

Liara is off on the side and is already established as a powerful biotic. She should easily be able to use Singularity or Stasis on Eva while she's on the phone with the Illusive Man.

Shepard could have shot Eva at three different points when she turned around to bash Ashley/Kaiden into the wall. 1) The initial spin away to the right; 2) the charge towards the wrecked ship; 3) Again, while she was on the phone.

Not to even mention if Shepard was a biotic or that Kaiden/Ashley had two other weapons on their backs that they could've grabbed.

Not to mention that it's stupid for Kaiden/Ashley to need intense medical attention after getting bashed against a wall. Yet unarmored Shepard can quickly get up and move out from the shockwave of a laser beam that cut through the Alliance HQ or that he can get into a firefight with Reaper troops and come out alive when he had limited ammo.

Nitpicks aside, that whole situation was obviously constructed for the purposes of removing Ashley/Kaiden from the Active Party Rooster until Udina's Insurrection and for drama.

[Sebby]

As a Morinth fan I was not pleased with her handling in ME3 and it seemed like she had a notable role in the leaked script too.

Oh well, that's how it goes for unpopular choices and for characters who aren't top fanwank material like Tali and Garrus.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Mr.House wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2 for instance ended up as complete filler.

ME2 has always been filler. The very enemy it introduces is defeated at the game's end, and the only significant development is some trivial information about Reaper mating habits. Sure, you can decide to keep or destory the base, but with the Arrival imminent, what good can it do?

However, ME3 did go out of its way to acknowledge much of ME2's side content. So, really, only the main plot became filler, but it was filler in the first place

Most of the squad was filler too. It´s hard to believe they gave Miranda such plot armor for what she amounted to in ME3. And so many choices just amounting to an insignificant change in a number.

Of course some of the squad is going to be filler. You can't have every character maintain his or her importance with a dynamic cast. I'm surprised they represented most characters as well as they did, honestly. I mean, what did you expect? That all 10 squadmates get their own personal plot that spans the game? There's only so much that can be done, and I'd say that they did a very commendable job.

No they didn't, they did a very poor job. The squadmates in ME2 where just walking cutouts that only came alive during their 15 minutes of fame.

I was referring to ME3's treatment of ME2's squad.

[INH56]

IanPolaris wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

That excuse works in ME1 before Sovereign attacks, but not after, especially since the Citadel DLC shows they knew Sovereign was a reaper and not a geth ship.

Hoo boy. Okay. You're in the Council's position. You know the Reapers are invading. So what exactly do you do to prepare?

You start a crash building, hardening, and research upgrade program starting with the remnants of Sovereign.  You then scour the galaxy for clues as to how to beat this thing, and there are a LOT of clues out there (not just the Crucible).

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also note that the timing of the entire series does not bear up under any kind of scrutiny.  If the Reapers (who don't have a specific lifespan and have lived for millions and millions of years) can reach our galaxy in overwhelming force in only three years, why bother with the Citadel, and the decapitation strike at all?  When Sovereign first signal failed (just before the Rachni wars), simply go in and harvest the galaxy by brute force.  There would have been no Turians, Humans, or Krogan.  The Reapers would have facerolled the galaxy.

This is basically the root problem with the wole overarching plot, and it all comes back to the ending of ME1. If you look at things like the Vigil conversation, you realize that the story had pretty much established that the Citadel relay was the only way the Reapers could ever get back to the galaxy. Going by what the game had told the player, the destruction of Sovereign should have been game over for the Reapers. Then at the end of ME1, Shepard suddenly says that the Reapers are coming anyway, without any explanation.

Even if we ignore the question of why the Reapers didn't invade earlier, the fact remains that, until Arrival, there wasn't actually any evidence that the Reapers were coming. Even though Shepard and others kept saying that the Reapers were coming from the end of ME1 onward, there really wasn't any reason to believe this.

So the fact that ME3 happened at all opens up some massive plot holes and serves to make ME1's main plot (which was really about preventing the Reaper invasion) pointless.

Nerevar-as wrote...
It´s not just that. Main plot wise, they
did their best to avoid using elements from the previous game. Thus, ME2
for instance ended up as complete filler.

I'd argue that in hindsight, ME1 isn't much better in terms of relevance. You stop Saren's plan to bring about the Reaper invasion, but the Reaper invasion happens anyway. You destroy Sovereign, but a lot more Reapers show up. You destroy Saren's genophage cure, but a new genophage cure gets developed from a completely different source. Most of the big decisions (saving the council, appointing the human councilor, freeing/killing the Rachni queen) end up meaning very little or being actively undone.

You can't even say that you learned about the coming Reaper invasion in ME1, given that Shepard doesn't learn that the Reapers are coming so much as he/she suddenly knows that they are for no reason.

The only things you did in ME1 that mattered in the long term were learning that the Reapers exist, getting humanity on the council (which honestly didn't matter that much when you think about it), rescuing Liara, and killing/not killing Wrex on Virmire.

Modifié par INH56, 28 mai 2013 - 09:14 .

[INH56]

ShadowLordXII wrote...
Nitpicks aside, that whole situation was obviously constructed for the purposes of removing Ashley/Kaiden from the Active Party Rooster until Udina's Insurrection and for drama.

All that, plus the unwinnable foot chase, which should have been over in 5 seconds if you were playing a Vanguard Shepard.

[Bleachrude]

So basically, if I understand you INH56, at the end of ME1, instead of having Shepard say "the reapers are coming", they should have simply moved away from the overarching reaper plotline?