213 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

INH56 wrote...
This is basically the root problem with the wole overarching plot, and it all comes back to the ending of ME1. If you look at things like the Vigil conversation, you realize that the story had pretty much established that the Citadel relay was the only way the Reapers could ever get back to the galaxy. Going by what the game had told the player, the destruction of Sovereign should have been game over for the Reapers. Then at the end of ME1, Shepard suddenly says that the Reapers are coming anyway, without any explanation.

Even if we ignore the question of why the Reapers didn't invade earlier, the fact remains that, until Arrival, there wasn't actually any evidence that the Reapers were coming. Even though Shepard and others kept saying that the Reapers were coming from the end of ME1 onward, there really wasn't any reason to believe this.

This is pretty accurate.

It's certainly not an ideal set-up for a straight-laced action story with Speshul McAwesomsauce saving the galaxy with raw badassery and lots of pew pew. Unsurprisingly ME2 retconned lots of specifics and essentially rebooted the franchise. 

The premises ME1 set wasn't entirely useless or horrible ... it's just that the story they could have told would have been a lot different than what we got. It could have been an actually character-drived narrative about the galaxy crumbling under the knowledge of a threat looming in the darkness that may or may not find a new way to invade, despite our efforts. (Even dead gods can dream ... and we had a dead god on the Citadel!)

And to be truly "innovative" the undefeatable force could have been actually undefeatable.

Not sure video games are ready for this sort of story, though. 

Modifié par klarabella, 28 mai 2013 - 10:23 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Seboist wrote...

Walters in the league of Ed Wood, Coleman Francis and the like. The man couldn't plot himself out of a wet paper bag if his life depended on it.

He had his moment of brilliance with Lair of the Shadow Broker. Tor Johansson did a great job as the Shadow Broker before Liara killed him.

The advantage was that it was short and full of action and cheesy dialogue.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mr.House wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Arcian wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's a pretty petty complaint, and if Shepard romances Tali it's addressed in dialogue.

Guns like the Reverent and Lancer are good because putting crap weapons in games that nobody uses is poor game design and a waste of resources.

Then what about the Locust?

I loved the Locust in ME2.

I don't know wtf they did to it in ME3.

ME2 Locust was a dlc weapon, thus it has to be very powerful. Locus in ME3 is a base game weapon thus it has to be balanced.  Basic game design.

The Locust in ME2 was powerful, but it was still balanced in the sense that the other SMGs provided a better CQC option. And the Locust was hardly balancede in ME3, it was severely underpowered and a complete joke of a weapon.

Its like the ME2 Avenger, it baffles me how it made it into the game.

[Nerevar-as]

Mr.House wrote...

Miranda had plot armor in ME2?

AKAIK, only way to kill her was taking her to the T-Reaper unloyal. She survived any other event that got other squadie killed.

[Ledgend1221]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Miranda had plot armor in ME2?

AKAIK, only way to kill her was taking her to the T-Reaper unloyal. She survived any other event that got other squadie killed.

She died in the defense on the first playthrough.

[Mcfly616]

Plot hole?


Seems some need to look up the definition before trying to use the word.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 28 mai 2013 - 09:39 .

[Bleachrude]

Lizardviking wrote...


The Locust in ME2 was powerful, but it was still balanced in the sense that the other SMGs provided a better CQC option. And the Locust was hardly balancede in ME3, it was severely underpowered and a complete joke of a weapon.

Its like the ME2 Avenger, it baffles me how it made it into the game.

Um...the Locust wasn't balaced at ALL.

It was better than many of the AR in terms of DPS and completely blew away the suriken and the tempest. The tempest may have had slightly higher stats versus shield and barriers but due to the accuracy of the tempest being crap, from medium to long range the tempest was significantly better.

(and short range in ME2 was basically as far as you could spit).

Now if you want to argue that in the hands of the squadmates it was a good choice, I mgiht find myself in aggrement.

[in it for the lolz]

Seboist wrote...

Walters in the league of Ed Wood, Coleman Francis and the like. The man couldn't plot himself out of a wet paper bag if his life depended on it.

100% truth in Seboist's post.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Bleachrude wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...


The Locust in ME2 was powerful, but it was still balanced in the sense that the other SMGs provided a better CQC option. And the Locust was hardly balancede in ME3, it was severely underpowered and a complete joke of a weapon.

Its like the ME2 Avenger, it baffles me how it made it into the game.

Um...the Locust wasn't balaced at ALL.

It was better than many of the AR in terms of DPS and completely blew away the suriken and the tempest. The tempest may have had slightly higher stats versus shield and barriers but due to the accuracy of the tempest being crap, from medium to long range the tempest was significantly better.

(and short range in ME2 was basically as far as you could spit).

Now if you want to argue that in the hands of the squadmates it was a good choice, I mgiht find myself in aggrement.

Yes, from medium to long range. I argued that the other smgs still had a place in the game due to being better at CQC.

Obviously the Locust was better than many of the ARs in ME2. Because aside from the vindicator (and perhaps the revenant, never tried it.) all the assault rifles were completely terrible.

[Mr.House]

Lizardviking wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...


The Locust in ME2 was powerful, but it was still balanced in the sense that the other SMGs provided a better CQC option. And the Locust was hardly balancede in ME3, it was severely underpowered and a complete joke of a weapon.

Its like the ME2 Avenger, it baffles me how it made it into the game.

Um...the Locust wasn't balaced at ALL.

It was better than many of the AR in terms of DPS and completely blew away the suriken and the tempest. The tempest may have had slightly higher stats versus shield and barriers but due to the accuracy of the tempest being crap, from medium to long range the tempest was significantly better.

(and short range in ME2 was basically as far as you could spit).

Now if you want to argue that in the hands of the squadmates it was a good choice, I mgiht find myself in aggrement.

Yes, from medium to long range. I argued that the other smgs still had a place in the game due to being better at CQC.

Obviously the Locust was better than many of the ARs in ME2. Because aside from the vindicator (and perhaps the revenant, never tried it.) all the assault rifles were completely terrible.

Mattock, nuff said.

[Nerevar-as]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Miranda had plot armor in ME2?

AKAIK, only way to kill her was taking her to the T-Reaper unloyal. She survived any other event that got other squadie killed.

She died in the defense on the first playthrough.

Didn´t know that one. Did Shepard survive?

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Well a big plot hole is the whole organic v synthetic thing.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mr.House wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...


The Locust in ME2 was powerful, but it was still balanced in the sense that the other SMGs provided a better CQC option. And the Locust was hardly balancede in ME3, it was severely underpowered and a complete joke of a weapon.

Its like the ME2 Avenger, it baffles me how it made it into the game.

Um...the Locust wasn't balaced at ALL.

It was better than many of the AR in terms of DPS and completely blew away the suriken and the tempest. The tempest may have had slightly higher stats versus shield and barriers but due to the accuracy of the tempest being crap, from medium to long range the tempest was significantly better.

(and short range in ME2 was basically as far as you could spit).

Now if you want to argue that in the hands of the squadmates it was a good choice, I mgiht find myself in aggrement.

Yes, from medium to long range. I argued that the other smgs still had a place in the game due to being better at CQC.

Obviously the Locust was better than many of the ARs in ME2. Because aside from the vindicator (and perhaps the revenant, never tried it.) all the assault rifles were completely terrible.

Mattock, nuff said.

The Mattock was severely broken I give you that, but I was talking about those found in the main game.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 28 mai 2013 - 09:50 .

[Mr.House]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Miranda had plot armor in ME2?

AKAIK, only way to kill her was taking her to the T-Reaper unloyal. She survived any other event that got other squadie killed.

She can only die after you go to confront T-800 because Bioware was to lazy to get other peopel to record her lines in the suicide mission, thus she has to be there between the combat segments for the dialog. That's not plot armor, that's saving time.

[David7204]

No, that actually is plot armor.

This is a historic moment. Someone is saying something isn't plot armor and I'm saying it is.

That's also a moronic accusation of laziness.

Modifié par David7204, 28 mai 2013 - 09:49 .

[INH56]

Bleachrude wrote...

So basically, if I understand you INH56, at the end of ME1, instead of having Shepard say "the reapers are coming", they should have simply moved away from the overarching reaper plotline?

Yes. Given what had been established, pretty much the only ways that the Reaper plot could continue were:

1) Introduce some new bad guys and have them try to reopen the Citadel relay, thus rehashing ME1's story.

2) Introduce some other way for the Reapers to get to the galaxy, thus making ME1 pointless and raising the plot hole of "why didn't the Reapers just use this backup plan instead of having Sovereign jump through all those hoops to attack the Citadel?".

Like klarabella said, there are other stories that could have been told within the established framework of the Reaper plot, but they generally aren't well suited to a game like this.

Modifié par INH56, 28 mai 2013 - 09:54 .

[Bleachrude]

Lizardviking wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...


The Locust in ME2 was powerful, but it was still balanced in the sense that the other SMGs provided a better CQC option. And the Locust was hardly balancede in ME3, it was severely underpowered and a complete joke of a weapon.

Its like the ME2 Avenger, it baffles me how it made it into the game.

Um...the Locust wasn't balaced at ALL.

It was better than many of the AR in terms of DPS and completely blew away the suriken and the tempest. The tempest may have had slightly higher stats versus shield and barriers but due to the accuracy of the tempest being crap, from medium to long range the tempest was significantly better.

(and short range in ME2 was basically as far as you could spit).

Now if you want to argue that in the hands of the squadmates it was a good choice, I mgiht find myself in aggrement.

Yes, from medium to long range. I argued that the other smgs still had a place in the game due to being better at CQC.

Obviously the Locust was better than many of the ARs in ME2. Because aside from the vindicator (and perhaps the revenant, never tried it.) all the assault rifles were completely terrible.

There ARE only 2 other SMGs in the game though.

The shuriken which was the starting SMG and both tempest and locust laughed at it.

The tempest was only good at short range (and short range in ME2 was shotgun, "I can spit further" range) and it wasn't significantly better at it that any min-maxxer would take it over the Locust.

The locust in ME3 has to compete with 7 other SMGs PLUS the ARs PLUS the effect of mods. Throw in the upgrade system and something had to give....

EDIT: Miranda
Couldn't Miranda die if she was assigned to escort the crew back and wasnt loyal?

Modifié par Bleachrude, 28 mai 2013 - 09:55 .

[David7204]

Or simply have the Reapers use another method that actually succeeds, but has some sort of cost. Or wasn't available before for some reason.

Modifié par David7204, 28 mai 2013 - 09:54 .

[Sebby]

Bleachrude wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...


The Locust in ME2 was powerful, but it was still balanced in the sense that the other SMGs provided a better CQC option. And the Locust was hardly balancede in ME3, it was severely underpowered and a complete joke of a weapon.

Its like the ME2 Avenger, it baffles me how it made it into the game.

Um...the Locust wasn't balaced at ALL.

It was better than many of the AR in terms of DPS and completely blew away the suriken and the tempest. The tempest may have had slightly higher stats versus shield and barriers but due to the accuracy of the tempest being crap, from medium to long range the tempest was significantly better.

(and short range in ME2 was basically as far as you could spit).

Now if you want to argue that in the hands of the squadmates it was a good choice, I mgiht find myself in aggrement.

Yes, from medium to long range. I argued that the other smgs still had a place in the game due to being better at CQC.

Obviously the Locust was better than many of the ARs in ME2. Because aside from the vindicator (and perhaps the revenant, never tried it.) all the assault rifles were completely terrible.

There ARE only 2 other SMGs in the game though.

The shuriken which was the starting SMG and both tempest and locust laughed at it.

The tempest was only good at short range (and short range in ME2 was shotgun, "I can spit further" range) and it wasn't significantly better at it that any min-maxxer would take it over the Locust.

The locust in ME3 has to compete with 7 other SMGs PLUS the ARs PLUS the effect of mods. Throw in the upgrade system and something had to give....

EDIT: Miranda
Couldn't Miranda die if she was assigned to escort the crew back and wasnt loyal?

The Tempest was good at longer range if you tapped the fire button for a 5 round burst.

Tempest > Locust

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Bleachrude wrote...
There ARE only 2 other SMGs in the game though.

The shuriken which was the starting SMG and both tempest and locust laughed at it.

The tempest was only good at short range (and short range in ME2 was shotgun, "I can spit further" range) and it wasn't significantly better at it that any min-maxxer would take it over the Locust.

The locust in ME3 has to compete with 7 other SMGs PLUS the ARs PLUS the effect of mods. Throw in the upgrade system and something had to give....

Any class that could use a SMG would eventually reach the Collector ship and pick a new weapon type to use. Picking the Vindicator or Mattock and ditching the Locust in favor of the Tempest was a perfectly viable playstyle, because you now have a perfectly  good long range weapon and now the CQC niche needs to be fiiled out.

And yes, while the ME3 Locust did had to compete with alot of weapons, it was still an abysmal weapon based on its own merits.

[dreamgazer]

I think it's time we coined the phrase "plot hole armor" and start spreading it around all willy-nilly.

[Sebby]

Bleachrude wrote...

So basically, if I understand you INH56, at the end of ME1, instead of having Shepard say "the reapers are coming", they should have simply moved away from the overarching reaper plotline?

It would have been for the best if the reaper story was concluded in ME1 with them being trapped in dark space and then focusing on the more interesting parts of the lore instead of lame giant metal squids.

[Mr.House]

Lizardviking wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
There ARE only 2 other SMGs in the game though.

The shuriken which was the starting SMG and both tempest and locust laughed at it.

The tempest was only good at short range (and short range in ME2 was shotgun, "I can spit further" range) and it wasn't significantly better at it that any min-maxxer would take it over the Locust.

The locust in ME3 has to compete with 7 other SMGs PLUS the ARs PLUS the effect of mods. Throw in the upgrade system and something had to give....

Any class that could use a SMG would eventually reach the Collector ship and pick a new weapon type to use. Picking the Vindicator or Mattock and ditching the Locust in favor of the Tempest was a perfectly viable playstyle, because you now have a perfectly  good long range weapon and now the CQC niche needs to be fiiled out.

And yes, while the ME3 Locust did had to compete with alot of weapons, it was still an abysmal weapon based on its own merits.

I'm an inflitrator, i'm not sacerficing my widow so I can carry a AR(which I should be able to do anyways)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mr.House wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
There ARE only 2 other SMGs in the game though.

The shuriken which was the starting SMG and both tempest and locust laughed at it.

The tempest was only good at short range (and short range in ME2 was shotgun, "I can spit further" range) and it wasn't significantly better at it that any min-maxxer would take it over the Locust.

The locust in ME3 has to compete with 7 other SMGs PLUS the ARs PLUS the effect of mods. Throw in the upgrade system and something had to give....

Any class that could use a SMG would eventually reach the Collector ship and pick a new weapon type to use. Picking the Vindicator or Mattock and ditching the Locust in favor of the Tempest was a perfectly viable playstyle, because you now have a perfectly  good long range weapon and now the CQC niche needs to be fiiled out.

And yes, while the ME3 Locust did had to compete with alot of weapons, it was still an abysmal weapon based on its own merits.

I'm an inflitrator, i'm not sacerficing my widow so I can carry a AR(which I should be able to do anyways)

And that is a perfectly viable gameplay choice to make, here taking the Locust makes perfect sense. But when playing adept, engineer, or sentinel? Taking the Vindicator/Mattock and using the Tempest in favor of the Locust is also a reasonable choice to make as well. Hell, even when I played vanguard I still chose an AR in favor of the Claymore, meaning I ditched the Locust in favor of the Tempest.

[Interloper]

Here are multiple conflicts:
i) in the original endings, ME relays explode like crazy leaving the Galaxy unscathed(or maybe in that bat**** scenario, Walters actually did want the entire Galaxy to be destroyed anyway XD)
ii)one amusing one was if Joker does have brittlebone disease, how does he survive the crash at the end of ME3.
iii)every single cycle apparently had races which resembled giant cuttllefish despite what ME 2 says about the human reaper.
iv) Sovereign claims organics are nothing more than an 'accident of nature' and 'rudimentary creatures' yet the Starchild acts like he kills organics on a mass scale because he loves them so much
v) Protheans look tall and majestic on Ilos, in ME 3 they look like the Collectors(though to be honest, I'll actually give Bioware some credit here since Javik is meant to be warlike since he is fighting after hundreds of years against the Reaper forces)
vi) For some reason the Reapers become increasingly anti-social going from talking to you directly in ME 1, to only talking to you through enemies in ME 2, to refusing to talk to you almost at all. 
vii)for some reason, the Starchild thinks the best way to connect with Shepard emotonally and convince him to see the Reapers as benevolent entities is to assume the shape of a child who was blown to pieces by a Reaper dreadnought.
viii) Shepard's incredible ability to breathe without correct apparatus in areas without an atmosphere
iix) the Joker's weird sexual fantasies with what is essentially an asexual robotic platform. Like seriously why do people actually encourage this? I don't think it would be healthy to encourage people have a relationship with a desktop computer, why, should the ship be any different? I'm SUPER glad I got rid of Joker's strange cyberphilia which he never had in ME1.