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[Han Shot First]

ME3 had no more plot holes than the first two chapters in the series.

[ShadowLordXII]

Han Shot First wrote...

ME3 had no more plot holes than the first two chapters in the series.

Probably not, but most plot holes in the first two games weren't anything major since they had a larger and honestly better writing staff.  Furthermore, those games as a whole were really awesome from beginning to end.

ME1...I can't think of any plotholes...apart from the appearence of the Protheans...which is pretty minor or why you can't save both Ashley and Kaiden...as much as I wouldn've liked to save both, forcing the player to make a call here was a great move considering everything that happened on Virmire.

Even if I had a problem with the reunion scene on Virmire or the stupidity of the Council in ME2, those weren't issues that lowered the gameplay, narrative or simply fun factors of the game.

ME3's Ending aside, the plot holes here were numerous, directly impacted the plot and were very obvious.

Earlier, I'd pointed out how the hostage situation on Mars was a plot-constructed event that was forced down our throats to throw Kaiden/Ashley off of the Active Roster and to make things seem more "dramatic."

Kai Lang's plot armor....

Low number of party members even though several past squadmates could easily rejoin (Grunt and Jack especially)

Ashley/Kaiden trusting Udina over Shepard...

Jacob cheating on FemShepard and pretty much taking a page out of his father's book...you know...that guy that he swore not to be like in the previous game...

The Council's dumbfounding reluctance to join Shepard in building the Crucible even with the Reapers knocking down the Galactic Front door and saying, "KNEEL!"

Cerberus recovering scraps of the Proto-Reaper regardless of whether or not you destroyed the base and therefore, gaining a Reaper IFF that would allow them to enter the Omega Relay without swandiving into the nearby black hole...

The Fall of Thessia and how the asari decided to not to tell anyone about the beacon until Thessia was being attacked....

The Salarians infuriating insistence on preventing the Krogan from getting the Genophage...and outright abandoning the war effort if you don't sabotage it....

Biotic Shepard never using biotics in situations where common sense would advise their usage during cutscenes.....

The fact that the Crucible was not discovered and secured earlier in the past six months since the events of Arrival or three years since a Reaper stormed into the Citadel and heavily damaged an entire fleet...

And that's before we get to the ending...

In short, these plot holes aren't just bad by themselves, but they came as a result of trying to force drama rather than trying to make it seem more natural and consistent with the characters involved. There are more objective plotholes in ME3 than there are subjective and the opposite holds true for the first two games.

[Only-Twin]

I don't know if ME3 necessarily had more plot holes, but it had the biggest one, not to menton the utter mess the story is for the most part.

I just got finished playing through ME2 again, and I can't believe that the people who made that game  went on to create ME3. It is so much more polished.

Modifié par Only-Twin, 29 mai 2013 - 03:48 .

[xlegionx]

Also, Samara said in ME2 that there were only 3 Ardat-Yakshi in existence, including Morinth. Now in ME3 there's a monastery full of them ready to be turned into Banshees

[dreamgazer]

xlegionx wrote...

Also, Samara said in ME2 that there were only 3 Ardat-Yakshi in existence, including Morinth. Now in ME3 there's a monastery full of them ready to be turned into Banshees

"According to Samara, these are the only three living Ardat-Yakshi. However, less severe cases are supposedly more common, including up to 1% of the population."

http://masseffect.wi...ki/Ardat-Yakshi

[Sebby]

Only-Twin wrote...

I just got finished playing through ME2 again, and I can't believe that the people who made that game  went on to create ME3. It is so much more polished.

On the contrary, the same people who gave us Lazarus, space terminator, human "genetically diverse" liquid goo and inane daddy issues that having to do with anything did as expected with ME3.

ME3 for all it's faults at least advances the Reaper plot.

[AresKeith]

Seboist wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just got finished playing through ME2 again, and I can't believe that the people who made that game  went on to create ME3. It is so much more polished.

On the contrary, the same people who gave us Lazarus, space terminator, human "genetically diverse" liquid goo and inane daddy issues that having to do with anything did as expected with ME3.

ME3 for all it's faults at least advances the Reaper plot.

The result of poor trilogy planning

[INH56]

The Ardat-Yakshi numbers have been inconsistent from the beginning. Samara says that her three daughters are the only ones in existence, period. However, the ME2 Codex entry says that about 1% of Asari are on the "AY spectrum." I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. Are there "mild cases" that only give their partners migraines? There are references in other dialogue to Ardat-Yakshi monasteries, which wouldn't exist if there were only three of them in the whole galaxy.

And of course, ME3 implies that there are a bunch of AY monasteries all over the place.

Personally, I never bought the idea that Samara's daughters were the only ones in the galaxy. A condition that only affects 3 individuals out of a population of billions wouldn't have a name. It definitely wouldn't have an extensive mythology or be the cause of a widespread prejudice. And what are the chances of something that vanishingly rare showing up 3 times in the same immediate family?

[David7204]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Probably not, but most plot holes in the first two games weren't anything major since they had a larger and honestly better writing staff.  Furthermore, those games as a whole were really awesome from beginning to end.

ME1...I can't think of any plotholes...apart from the appearence of the Protheans...which is pretty minor or why you can't save both Ashley and Kaiden...as much as I wouldn've liked to save both, forcing the player to make a call here was a great move considering everything that happened on Virmire.

Even if I had a problem with the reunion scene on Virmire or the stupidity of the Council in ME2, those weren't issues that lowered the gameplay, narrative or simply fun factors of the game.

ME3's Ending aside, the plot holes here were numerous, directly impacted the plot and were very obvious.

Earlier, I'd pointed out how the hostage situation on Mars was a plot-constructed event that was forced down our throats to throw Kaiden/Ashley off of the Active Roster and to make things seem more "dramatic."

Kai Lang's plot armor....

Low number of party members even though several past squadmates could easily rejoin (Grunt and Jack especially)

Ashley/Kaiden trusting Udina over Shepard...

Jacob cheating on FemShepard and pretty much taking a page out of his father's book...you know...that guy that he swore not to be like in the previous game...

The Council's dumbfounding reluctance to join Shepard in building the Crucible even with the Reapers knocking down the Galactic Front door and saying, "KNEEL!"

Cerberus recovering scraps of the Proto-Reaper regardless of whether or not you destroyed the base and therefore, gaining a Reaper IFF that would allow them to enter the Omega Relay without swandiving into the nearby black hole...

The Fall of Thessia and how the asari decided to not to tell anyone about the beacon until Thessia was being attacked....

The Salarians infuriating insistence on preventing the Krogan from getting the Genophage...and outright abandoning the war effort if you don't sabotage it....

Biotic Shepard never using biotics in situations where common sense would advise their usage during cutscenes.....

The fact that the Crucible was not discovered and secured earlier in the past six months since the events of Arrival or three years since a Reaper stormed into the Citadel and heavily damaged an entire fleet...

And that's before we get to the ending...

In short, these plot holes aren't just bad by themselves, but they came as a result of trying to force drama rather than trying to make it seem more natural and consistent with the characters involved. There are more objective plotholes in ME3 than there are subjective and the opposite holds true for the first two games.

Most of these are not plot holes, and half of them are not valid complaints at all.

Modifié par David7204, 29 mai 2013 - 04:22 .

[dreamgazer]

Seboist wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just got finished playing through ME2 again, and I can't believe that the people who made that game  went on to create ME3. It is so much more polished.

On the contrary, the same people who gave us Lazarus, space terminator, human "genetically diverse" liquid goo and inane daddy issues that having to do with anything did as expected with ME3.

ME3 for all it's faults at least advances the Reaper plot.

Meh, they were just following in the footsteps of asari-cloning plants that control minds, mental "ciphers" (lol), the Conduit MacGuffin-Ex-Machina, hopper Saren, and near-invincible mecha space ticks that get testy every 50k years. 

[David7204]

INH56 wrote...

The Ardat-Yakshi numbers have been inconsistent from the beginning. Samara says that her three daughters are the only ones in existence, period. However, the ME2 Codex entry says that about 1% of Asari are on the "AY spectrum." I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. Are there "mild cases" that only give their partners migraines? There are references in other dialogue to Ardat-Yakshi monasteries, which wouldn't exist if there were only three of them in the whole galaxy.

And of course, ME3 implies that there are a bunch of AY monasteries all over the place.

Personally, I never bought the idea that Samara's daughters were the only ones in the galaxy. A condition that only affects 3 individuals out of a population of billions wouldn't have a name. It definitely wouldn't have an extensive mythology or be the cause of a widespread prejudice. And what are the chances of something that vanishingly rare showing up 3 times in the same immediate family?

The diction of the codex entry makes it pretty clear that was intentional...

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Probably not, but most plot holes in the first two games weren't anything major since they had a larger and honestly better writing staff.  Furthermore, those games as a whole were really awesome from beginning to end.

ME1...I can't think of any plotholes...apart from the appearence of the Protheans...which is pretty minor or why you can't save both Ashley and Kaiden...as much as I wouldn've liked to save both, forcing the player to make a call here was a great move considering everything that happened on Virmire.

Even if I had a problem with the reunion scene on Virmire or the stupidity of the Council in ME2, those weren't issues that lowered the gameplay, narrative or simply fun factors of the game.

ME3's Ending aside, the plot holes here were numerous, directly impacted the plot and were very obvious.

Earlier, I'd pointed out how the hostage situation on Mars was a plot-constructed event that was forced down our throats to throw Kaiden/Ashley off of the Active Roster and to make things seem more "dramatic."

Kai Lang's plot armor....

Low number of party members even though several past squadmates could easily rejoin (Grunt and Jack especially)

Ashley/Kaiden trusting Udina over Shepard...

Jacob cheating on FemShepard and pretty much taking a page out of his father's book...you know...that guy that he swore not to be like in the previous game...

The Council's dumbfounding reluctance to join Shepard in building the Crucible even with the Reapers knocking down the Galactic Front door and saying, "KNEEL!"

Cerberus recovering scraps of the Proto-Reaper regardless of whether or not you destroyed the base and therefore, gaining a Reaper IFF that would allow them to enter the Omega Relay without swandiving into the nearby black hole...

The Fall of Thessia and how the asari decided to not to tell anyone about the beacon until Thessia was being attacked....

The Salarians infuriating insistence on preventing the Krogan from getting the Genophage...and outright abandoning the war effort if you don't sabotage it....

Biotic Shepard never using biotics in situations where common sense would advise their usage during cutscenes.....

The fact that the Crucible was not discovered and secured earlier in the past six months since the events of Arrival or three years since a Reaper stormed into the Citadel and heavily damaged an entire fleet...

And that's before we get to the ending...

In short, these plot holes aren't just bad by themselves, but they came as a result of trying to force drama rather than trying to make it seem more natural and consistent with the characters involved. There are more objective plotholes in ME3 than there are subjective and the opposite holds true for the first two games.

Most of these are not plot holes, and half of them are not valid complaints at all.

By all means, explain to us how they're not plot holes and why they are not valid complaints.

[David7204]

Gosh, for only the hundredth time?

Kai Leng - that is not plot armor. That is not a plot hole.

Low number of party members - not a valid complaint. More party members does not mean better.

Ashley/Kaidan trusting Udina over Shepard - They don't. They listen to Shepard as soon as he or she explains him or herself. The fact that they shoot Udina should make this pretty damn obvious.

Jacob cheating - There have been countless people whining that the story should not revolve around Shepard. Well, this is exactly what that looks like. Why is this a problem?

Biotics in Cutscenes - Expecting cutscenes to take into account Shepard's possible ability to use biotics, fiddle with tech, deploy drones and turrets, charge, turn invisible is flatly ridiculous. It's not perfect, but it's reality.

Salarians and the genophage - Plenty of people on the BSN have gleefully defended it. It clearly has a lot of credibility.

The Council - It's interesting that I see complaints on the BSN shrieking that the Council are the stupidest people ever, ever for not putting resources into the Crucible and shrieking that the Council are the stupidest people ever, ever for putting resources into the Crucible.

Cerberus doubtless pulled the IFF off of EDI. Nor I remember hearing anything about a black hole being close to the collector base.

Modifié par David7204, 29 mai 2013 - 04:48 .

[Sebby]

David7204 wrote...

Nor I remember hearing anything about a black hole being close to the collector base.

[David7204]

If that is a black hole, the Collector Base is far enough away or fast enough not to be sucked in.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

If that is a black hole, the Collector Base is far enough away or fast enough not to be sucked in.

"The Collector Base is a massive space station located in the galactic core on the accretion disk of a black hole."

http://masseffect.wi.../Collector_Base

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

If that is a black hole, the Collector Base is far enough away or fast enough not to be sucked in.

Yes, that's a black hole.

And no, the Colelctor base is not far enough not to be sucked in.  The only reason it isn't sucked into the black hole is because of some sort of advanced reaper tech mass effect field.

[David7204]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Yes, that's a black hole.

And no, the Colelctor base is not far enough not to be sucked in.  The only reason it isn't sucked into the black hole is because of some sort of advanced reaper tech mass effect field.

And what's your reasoning behind that?

[The Night Mammoth]

David7204 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Yes, that's a black hole.

And no, the Colelctor base is not far enough not to be sucked in.  The only reason it isn't sucked into the black hole is because of some sort of advanced reaper tech mass effect field.

And what's your reasoning behind that?

He doesn't have to provide that, he does has to give a plausible scenario. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 29 mai 2013 - 05:07 .

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Yes, that's a black hole.

And no, the Colelctor base is not far enough not to be sucked in.  The only reason it isn't sucked into the black hole is because of some sort of advanced reaper tech mass effect field.

And what's your reasoning behind that?

The information the game itself gives us. Pay attention while playing ME2 next time.

[David7204]

And what information does the game give us that provides you with that reasoning which I missed?

[The Heretic of Time]

Mordin telling you about the black holes, EDI telling you about them and Shepard assuming a mass effect field keeping the base in place (like with the derelict reaper orbiting the sun).

[INH56]

David7204 wrote...

And what information does the game give us that provides you with that reasoning which I missed?

After the Collector Ship mission, EDI and Mordin discuss how the Collector base must be protected by some kind of advanced Reaper tech, otherwise it wouldn't be able to survive in the galactic core. Which doesn't necessarily mean that it would be sucked in without that (black holes can be orbited like any other massive object), but it does demonstrate how dangerous that place is.

Even disregarding the black hole and the IFF, go and watch a video of the Collector base explosion. Note how it is so powerful that pieces of ship debris that are far from the base get knocked around and burnt up. Remember that the Proto-Reaper was in the same room as the reactor that exploded. Even if it somehow survived, the explosion would impart such a great velocity that all of the debris would be scattered over a vast area, which would only expand over time (since there's no air to slow the debris down). The idea that Cerberus would be able to go in, search this hazardous area, and find all those pieces of the Proto-Reaper within six months is ridiculous.

The worst part of this is, all these contrivances happen for no discernible gameplay, story, or resource management benefit. All Bioware had to do was make that room in the Cerberus base empty if you destroyed the base. It would cost practically nothing. In fact it would save them a bit of money since EDI would have one less line to record, and the artists wouldn't have to make a damaged version of the Proto-Reaper.

The only possible reason I can think if is that they wanted to have the Reaper heart war asset, which somehow gives you the Destroy ending if you have low EMS. Which doesn't make any sense anyway, since if you saved the base the Proto-Reaper is fully intact and you should be able to get the Reaper heart anyway.

[Only-Twin]

Seboist wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just got finished playing through ME2 again, and I can't believe that the people who made that game  went on to create ME3. It is so much more polished.

On the contrary, the same people who gave us Lazarus, space terminator, human "genetically diverse" liquid goo and inane daddy issues that having to do with anything did as expected with ME3.

ME3 for all it's faults at least advances the Reaper plot.

The story of ME2 is an aside and doesn't advance the reaper plot much, but I don't think it takes away from the game. It's a breath of fresh air when compared to the convoluted mess that is Mass Effect 3. 

[David7204]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Mordin telling you about the black holes, EDI telling you about them and Shepard assuming a mass effect field keeping the base in place (like with the derelict reaper orbiting the sun).

Doesn't prove anything. The Mass Effect field could just been used to keep debris away. There's nothing to suggest it's in place to stop the base from being sucked into a black hole.