213 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Mordin telling you about the black holes, EDI telling you about them and Shepard assuming a mass effect field keeping the base in place (like with the derelict reaper orbiting the sun).

Doesn't prove anything. The Mass Effect field could just been used to keep debris away. There's nothing to suggest it's in place to stop the base from being sucked into a black hole.

Do you have reading comprehension issues or something, or did you just not read what I actually said?


Also, read INH56's post, he made a more in-detail rebuttal, something I simply do not have the patience for (not with you at least).

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 29 mai 2013 - 05:32 .

[David7204]

I did. In particular, I read the first paragraph where he agrees with me that the existence of a mass effect field doesn't mean the base would be sucked in without it. Did you happen to catch that? Or perhaps you 'didn't have the paitence?'

Modifié par David7204, 29 mai 2013 - 05:35 .

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

I did. In particular, I read the first paragraph where he agrees with me that the existence of a mass effect field doesn't mean the base would be sucked in without it.

Shepard assumes the mass effect field keeps the base from crashing into the black hole. EDI assumes it too. And we already saw a similar situation earlier with the delerict reaper.

If this was real-life, than I would agree, that there is no reason to believe that Shepard is right. This is not real-life however, but a story, a space opera. When multiple main characters assume something, AND we saw a similar situation before, than it's most likely true.

As I said, this is a fictional story, and most, if not everything, in a story serves a purpose, especially when it comes to providing us with new information. If Shepard's assumption was not even remotely true, than why would the writers make him say it?

Edit: Goddamnit, even when I said I didn't want to waste more time on you, you still managed to make me write a pretty long post as a reply to you. Well done David, well done. You succesfully made me waste my time on you once again. 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 29 mai 2013 - 05:43 .

[INH56]

I said that the mass effect field was used to protect the base, not necessarily to keep it from falling in (black holes have lots of debris and radiation flying around them). I don't think they ever specifically said that the base would get sucked into the black hole without a ME field, though I could be wrong. But I went on to say that it didn't matter. Even if there was no black hole and the base had been out in deep, empty space, after an explosion of that magnitude,there's no way that Cerberus would be able to recover anything significant from the debris (if there even was any debris that wasn't vaporized) in such a short time.

Modifié par INH56, 29 mai 2013 - 05:47 .

[David7204]

Whatever heat produced in the explosion is likely going to be a lot less than the heat from starship weapons. Nor do we need to assume the pieces go flying in all directions.

[Nightdragon8]

David7204 wrote...

I did. In particular, I read the first paragraph where he agrees with me that the existence of a mass effect field doesn't mean the base would be sucked in without it. Did you happen to catch that? Or perhaps you 'didn't have the paitence?'

if its not the base that is keep it from falling into the black holes, then its the gate... well the gate DID put pluto into  a stable orbit when the relay went online. so if it can effect the orbit of a drawf planet a modified one may be able to push back the tides of black holes.

which would honestly have to ask the question if the Omega relay where to explode I wonder what it would do to the glalatic core....

some of the belaring and annoying parts for me was on Virmire where 1 you where able to get in without the worry of AA towers did they suddenly say "Oh S@#!" and turn them on??

the second would be the counil to **** at you for setting off the nuke.... for 1 wasn't my plan, it was 'Your" STG team's idea. and then later on come back at you with "Your not subtle you set off a nuke" its like... right not my idea....

and its not like it was a populated area, sure maybe a few crabs died nothing that can't fix itself in a few years.

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 29 mai 2013 - 05:48 .

[INH56]

On falling into black holes: black holes don't just "suck in" everything around them in like a cosmic vacuum cleaner. Outside of the event horizon, they have a normal gravitational field and can be orbited just like a planet or star. As far as I know, we don't have enough information to know if this is the case with the Collector base, though. I just wanted to correct this common misconception.

David7204 wrote...

Whatever heat produced in the explosion is likely going to be a lot less than the heat from starship weapons. Nor do we need to assume the pieces go flying in all directions.

We don't need to assume that the pieces go flying in all directions because we clearly see the explosion expanding in all directions when the base blows up.

Modifié par INH56, 29 mai 2013 - 06:27 .

[Han Shot First]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

ME3 had no more plot holes than the first two chapters in the series.

Probably not, but most plot holes in the first two games weren't anything major since they had a larger and honestly better writing staff.  Furthermore, those games as a whole were really awesome from beginning to end.

ME1...I can't think of any plotholes...apart from the appearence of the Protheans...which is pretty minor or why you can't save both Ashley and Kaiden...as much as I wouldn've liked to save both, forcing the player to make a call here was a great move considering everything that happened on Virmire.

ME1 had the largest plot hole of the series.

Saren, a Council Spectre with indoctrinated Asari commandos in his service, attacks a human colony to access a Prothean beacon he didn't need (had one on Virmire) to find the location of a Conduit he didn't need. The Eden Prime attack never made much sense, as Saren & the Commandos already had full Presidium access.

It makes me wonder whether Saren being a Spectre was a late revision to the script, as the Eden Prime attack makes much more sense if Saren isn't a Spectre.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 29 mai 2013 - 07:20 .

[nos_astra]

Han Shot First wrote...
ME1 had the largest plot hole of the series.

Saren, a Council Spectre with indoctrinated Asari commandos in his service, attacks a human colony to access a Prothean beacon he didn't need (had one on Virmire) to find the location of a Conduit he didn't need. The Eden Prime attack never made much sense, as Saren & the Commandos already had full Presidium access.

I'm not sure I'd call this "the largest plothole".

It's certainly contrived but not more contrived than ME2's utterly retarded plot or ME3's MacGuffin.

I thought the beacons were more of a breadcrumb trail. And I'm not sure what you mean by "the Conduit wasn't needed". Wait, this isn't about Spectres being allowed to walk into the Council chamber and access control panels without being shot between the eyes? Or is this about Cerberus almost taking the Citadel by sneaking an army in?

Anyway if it can be somewhat fixed by removing the Spectre status from the universe I'd think it's a minor issue compared to the idiocy that the later installments weren't above introducing.

It makes me wonder whether Saren being a Spectre was a late revision to the script, as the Eden Prime attack makes much more sense if Saren isn't a Spectre.

I think the Spectre status is cringe-worthy and useless the way it was presented: An agent of the Council (depicted as ineffective morons) who are supposedly above the law, unless they are not. 

Modifié par klarabella, 29 mai 2013 - 08:05 .

[TheProtheans]

Han Shot First wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

ME3 had no more plot holes than the first two chapters in the series.

Probably not, but most plot holes in the first two games weren't anything major since they had a larger and honestly better writing staff.  Furthermore, those games as a whole were really awesome from beginning to end.

ME1...I can't think of any plotholes...apart from the appearence of the Protheans...which is pretty minor or why you can't save both Ashley and Kaiden...as much as I wouldn've liked to save both, forcing the player to make a call here was a great move considering everything that happened on Virmire.

ME1 had the largest plot hole of the series.

Saren, a Council Spectre with indoctrinated Asari commandos in his service, attacks a human colony to access a Prothean beacon he didn't need (had one on Virmire) to find the location of a Conduit he didn't need. The Eden Prime attack never made much sense, as Saren & the Commandos already had full Presidium access.

It makes me wonder whether Saren being a Spectre was a late revision to the script, as the Eden Prime attack makes much more sense if Saren isn't a Spectre.

It is actually a nonsense storyline from Mass effect 3 that went the whole way around to hit Mass effect 1 with an uppercut.
Saren could have easily taken the citadel and do his job without needing the conduit.
The reason we think he did not was because of the security and the security protocols and possible the manpower.
However Mass effect 3 proves that even when those security and protocols are heightened, you can still take the Citadel completely by sneaking an army in.

Hence it went the full way around and did an uppercut.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 29 mai 2013 - 08:07 .

[Kataphrut94]

Here's one: on Thessia, Kai Leng ambushes Shepard at the monastery in order to swipe the Prothean beacon. Leaving aside the circumstances of said swiping (which has been done to death), and establishing that he needed to wait for Shepard so he could use the Cipher to activate the beacon...how did he know Shepard would be there?

You see a video log later in Cerberus HQ where the Illusive Man tells him: "Head to Thessia. Shepard will be there", or something to that effect. Thing is, who told him that Shepard would be going to Thessia? The meeting with the asari councilor was meant to be totally hush-hush and I doubt (or sincerely hope not) that Cerberus actually has spies in asari high command. Considering that Shepard could quite easily delay his trip to Thessia by messing around with side-quests or going on dates at the Citadel, how long was Leng waiting?

Also, another minor one: after the geth dreadnought mission, Legion arrives in the war room and gives the quarian admirals a good scare. Thing is, he arrives just after Admiral Gerrel leaves, and we all know the path from the CIC to the war room isn't exactly open-ended. Did they bump into each other on the way in/out? Did they have to wait for each other at the security door? That would be awkward.

[Sebby]

The whole "spectre" thing is just a convenience to not have to deal with any possible consequences for the players' actions. Not that it's needed mind you, as Shepard gets away scott free with shooting up a club on the citadel and potentially killing it's owner and largely going to nominally populated planets on the fringes or barren ones in the boonies where the law doesn't mean much.

It's only ever needed on Noveria to enter the place.

[AlanC9]

It's got nothing to do with ME3. Benezia and her commandos could have entered the Citadel at any time. And it's hard to see why Saren couldn't have brought plenty of inactive/disassembled geth there either.

Even if we ignore this, sending Saren down to Eden Prime in person was an insane risk. But I guess Sovereign's allowed to screw the pooch a couple times. If he didn't screw up he'd win.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 mai 2013 - 08:14 .

[nos_astra]

AlanC9 wrote...
It's got nothing to do with ME3. Benezia and her commandos could have entered the Citadel at any time. And it's hard to see why Saren couldn't have brought plenty of inactive/disassembled geth there either.

They could have entered the Citadel and then what? Take on a force of several thousand C-Sec guys? Plus the military?

Inactivated/disassembled geth? Doing what the quarians wanted to do before the Morning War that deserved name calling and near-extinction?

Not saying the idea of a surprise attack by porting right in front of the Citadel before it could be closed was executed well but it doesn't really sound more contrived than any of your ideas. Saren's lack of subtlety is a bit baffling, though.

Modifié par klarabella, 29 mai 2013 - 08:22 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Han Shot First wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

ME3 had no more plot holes than the first two chapters in the series.

Probably not, but most plot holes in the first two games weren't anything major since they had a larger and honestly better writing staff.  Furthermore, those games as a whole were really awesome from beginning to end.

ME1...I can't think of any plotholes...apart from the appearence of the Protheans...which is pretty minor or why you can't save both Ashley and Kaiden...as much as I wouldn've liked to save both, forcing the player to make a call here was a great move considering everything that happened on Virmire.

ME1 had the largest plot hole of the series.

As opposed to in ME3 where the  Reapers decide to wait bringing the Citadel to Earth for no reason at all? Or how Cerberus' plan and actions makes no sense?

All the games had plotholes or moments where the logic of the events was less than stellar. ME1 however, as opposed to succesors, atleast managed to tell its story competently and its holes or lapses of logic were far more forgiving than those found in 2 and 3.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 29 mai 2013 - 10:15 .

[Interloper]

AlanC9 wrote...

It's got nothing to do with ME3. Benezia and her commandos could have entered the Citadel at any time. And it's hard to see why Saren couldn't have brought plenty of inactive/disassembled geth there either.

Even if we ignore this, sending Saren down to Eden Prime in person was an insane risk. But I guess Sovereign's allowed to screw the pooch a couple times. If he didn't screw up he'd win.

The point was Saren has a MULTITUDE of plausible objectives which included not only securing the Citadel but also gaining allies such as the Thorian and the Rachni Queen BEFORE the attack. These are not plot holes in the slightest, they were logical extensions of Saren's goal. Also, how is Eden Prime an 'insane risk'? He was the only one who needed the Cipher's information and evidently didn't want to share that with anyone else.

It was a well executed precision attack under the guise of a wider Geth attack and the Council fell right into his trap and this was conjoined witht he fact that Saren knew he was a high level Spectre, it was his word against that of HUMANS(who you might not remember were actually not even represented in the Council at that time). 

 You're drawing on one small detail which, upon closer examination scarcely even constitutes a real plot hole in the slightest. Let's examine just three of ME 3's perhaps?

i) the ending evidently has the biggest plot hole which is the fact that it is well established the Reapers are synthetic. There is no denying that. Sovereign says it, the Collectors affirm it and it's fact. So why does the Starchild state they massacre people to stop synthetics massacring people? There's no logic there and moreover, it's a major plot point, not  a minor plot detail

ii) how on Earth do the Reapers even manage to just magically transport the Citadel? Surely there should be enough forces to at the very least defend against a Reaper attack but when most of their forces are scattered about the Galaxy, how can Reapers even transport something so large? Are they going to try pushing it across the galaxy with their small puny cuttlefish arms?

iii) Why are the Illusive man and Anderson magically in the Citadel when 'no one else' is there or made it?

 If it wasn't for the EC, I could name about five others but thanks to the loyalty of some fans, they're no longer there. ME 1 was a masterpiece and even ME 2 despite certain plot holes appaearing. ME 3 is good in some places and downright terrible in others.

[Bleachrude]

Interloper wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

It's got nothing to do with ME3. Benezia and her commandos could have entered the Citadel at any time. And it's hard to see why Saren couldn't have brought plenty of inactive/disassembled geth there either.

Even if we ignore this, sending Saren down to Eden Prime in person was an insane risk. But I guess Sovereign's allowed to screw the pooch a couple times. If he didn't screw up he'd win.

The point was Saren has a MULTITUDE of plausible objectives which included not only securing the Citadel but also gaining allies such as the Thorian and the Rachni Queen BEFORE the attack. These are not plot holes in the slightest, they were logical extensions of Saren's goal. Also, how is Eden Prime an 'insane risk'? He was the only one who needed the Cipher's information and evidently didn't want to share that with anyone else.

It was a well executed precision attack under the guise of a wider Geth attack and the Council fell right into his trap and this was conjoined witht he fact that Saren knew he was a high level Spectre, it was his word against that of HUMANS(who you might not remember were actually not even represented in the Council at that time). 

Nope...it's a plot hole.

Start from the very beginning...

Why did Saren gather allies like the krogans/geth and need the Thorian and the Rachni?

Because he needed a strike force to get into the citadel.

Why did he need a strike force to get into the citadel.

Because he had been stripped of his spectre status.

Why was he stripped of his spectre status?

Because he attacked Eden prime

Why did he attack Eden prime?

Because he did not know what the conduit was (and here's where the plot falls apart).

So he attacked eden prime to find out what the conduit was which is a backdoor into the citadel for his strike force.

But Saren's a spectre...he didn't NEES permission from anyone to use the controls.

The argument is that C-sec would have stopped Saren fromdoing anything..but why would they? Pre Eden prime, he was the greatest spectre of his generation so there is no reason for C-sec to even look at him. Especially if he was accompanied by Benzenia.

The plot for ME1 MAKES NO SENSE. It's a circular plot that works only because players are caught up in it and never once stand back and think it through...


It's the same thing with assembling a strike force team for the suicide mission in ME2. You have no idea as to what is past the omega 4 relay so how do you know you need a biotic or tech specialist?  You're basically assembling a team BEFORE you know what the actual game is.

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...



Nope...it's a plot hole.

Start from the very beginning...

Why did Saren gather allies like the krogans/geth and need the Thorian and the Rachni?

Because he needed a strike force to get into the citadel.

Why did he need a strike force to get into the citadel.

Because he had been stripped of his spectre status.

Why was he stripped of his spectre status?

Because he attacked Eden prime

Why did he attack Eden prime?

Because he did not know what the conduit was (and here's where the plot falls apart).

So he attacked eden prime to find out what the conduit was which is a backdoor into the citadel for his strike force.

But Saren's a spectre...he didn't NEES permission from anyone to use the controls.

So, what's wrong with that again? How is obtaining the prothean beacon to find more clues to as the conduit (which saren was in search for) was located where the plot falls apart? As you've absolutly made zero sense.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

klarabella wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
ME1 had the largest plot hole of the series.

Saren, a Council Spectre with indoctrinated Asari commandos in his service, attacks a human colony to access a Prothean beacon he didn't need (had one on Virmire) to find the location of a Conduit he didn't need. The Eden Prime attack never made much sense, as Saren & the Commandos already had full Presidium access.

I'm not sure I'd call this "the largest plothole".

It's certainly contrived but not more contrived than ME2's utterly retarded plot or ME3's MacGuffin.

I thought the beacons were more of a breadcrumb trail. And I'm not sure what you mean by "the Conduit wasn't needed". Wait, this isn't about Spectres being allowed to walk into the Council chamber and access control panels without being shot between the eyes? Or is this about Cerberus almost taking the Citadel by sneaking an army in?

But that's not how they were presented.

In essence, the Eden Prime beacon was a half-assed version of the Virmire beacon, but it was simply damaged. Basically, it did not provide him with any information which his beacon on Virmire didn't already contribute.

With Mass Effect, it looked like Bioware was borrowing from KotOR's Star Maps, but forgot to mention that all of the maps were damaged and needed to complete the puzzle.

Saren becoming directly involved was foolish,at best and designed strictly to give the player something to follow.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...



Nope...it's a plot hole.

Start from the very beginning...

Why did Saren gather allies like the krogans/geth and need the Thorian and the Rachni?

Because he needed a strike force to get into the citadel.

Why did he need a strike force to get into the citadel.

Because he had been stripped of his spectre status.

Why was he stripped of his spectre status?

Because he attacked Eden prime

Why did he attack Eden prime?

Because he did not know what the conduit was (and here's where the plot falls apart).

So he attacked eden prime to find out what the conduit was which is a backdoor into the citadel for his strike force.

But Saren's a spectre...he didn't NEES permission from anyone to use the controls.

So, what's wrong with that again? How is obtaining the prothean beacon to find more clues to as the conduit (which saren was in search for) was located where the plot falls apart? As you've absolutly made zero sense.

Because it was a round-about method to do something which he always had the ability to do. Saren didn't know what the Conduit was, but he knew he needed to access the Citadel controls to let Sovereign it. So cut out the middle man and just access the controls yourself. It wasn't until Vigil became involved by giving Shepard the ability to reroute control of the Citadel that anyone would be able to stop him.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 29 mai 2013 - 11:44 .

[Bleachrude]

But Saren doesn't know what the conduit IS. That's what I'm trying to get across.

Saren NEEDS the conduit for his plan because he was SEARCHING for the conduit.

I know it looks like I'm just stating the obvious but the plot itself falls in on itself once you look at it.

What happens if the conduit wasnt a backdoor to the citadel...exactly what would Saren's plan actually be then?

How can Saren plan to use the conduit if he doesnt KNOW what the conduit is (as you pointed out yourself). As I said, it's the same problem with the suicide mission. You assemble a team for a mission but you dont know what you're going to need so how can you assemble your team?

EDIT: Thank you Bel!!
For some reason I can never explain this properly.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 29 mai 2013 - 11:47 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Seboist wrote...

The whole "spectre" thing is just a convenience to not have to deal with any possible consequences for the players' actions. Not that it's needed mind you, as Shepard gets away scott free with shooting up a club on the citadel and potentially killing it's owner and largely going to nominally populated planets on the fringes or barren ones in the boonies where the law doesn't mean much.

It's only ever needed on Noveria to enter the place.

Which is what makes it a huge let down. At least in KotOR, becoming a Jedi gave you Force Powers and lightsabers to play with, not to mention it becomes a focal point for quite a few plots you encounter while searching the Star Maps.

The Star Maps are just...there.

[Interloper]

Bleachrude wrote...

Nope...it's a plot hole.

Start from the very beginning...

Why did Saren gather allies like the krogans/geth and need the Thorian and the Rachni?

Because he needed a strike force to get into the citadel.

Why did he need a strike force to get into the citadel.

Because he had been stripped of his spectre status.

Why was he stripped of his spectre status?

Because he attacked Eden prime

Why did he attack Eden prime?

Because he did not know what the conduit was (and here's where the plot falls apart).

So he attacked eden prime to find out what the conduit was which is a backdoor into the citadel for his strike force.

But Saren's a spectre...he didn't NEES permission from anyone to use the controls.

The argument is that C-sec would have stopped Saren fromdoing anything..but why would they? Pre Eden prime, he was the greatest spectre of his generation so there is no reason for C-sec to even look at him. Especially if he was accompanied by Benzenia.

The plot for ME1 MAKES NO SENSE. It's a circular plot that works only because players are caught up in it and never once stand back and think it through...


It's the same thing with assembling a strike force team for the suicide mission in ME2. You have no idea as to what is past the omega 4 relay so how do you know you need a biotic or tech specialist?  You're basically assembling a team BEFORE you know what the actual game is.

 Oh yeah because once everyone sees the massive Reaper ship approaching they'll all be like, 'Ok Saren, you can keep the arms to the Citadel open. We'll just make sure we're entirely unable to fight back!' Saren needs an ARMY to ensure he can keep the arms open for Sovereign to enter the Citadel and also provide an actual distraction, otherwise Sovereign most likely would have been obliterated before he even reached the Citadel.

 Thus, back to the original plot, how does Saren ensure this distraction is powerful enough to throw the Citadel into disarray and ensure it cannot protect itself? You need an army which is where the Geth come into play.

 How do you transport MASSIVE amounts of Geth forces onto the Citadel? Whilst it is possible that you might be able to get to the Citadel through transporting all the Geth forces with Sovereign, this most likely would have alerted the Citadel anyway. Game over, the arms close and Sovereign is unable to enter. HOWEVER, a backdoor exists which provides a convenient backdoor. WAIT A MINUTE, isn't this a massive plothole because it seems too covnenient?

 No, that's the beauty of it, just after learning of this Conduit, Vigil giv es you a nice 12 minute chat as to why the Protheans built this backdoor, how Saren is now using this to act as a distraction so that Sovereign can successfully enter the Citadel without the arms closing!

 ME 2 by contrast is also a fallacious example. The stakes there aren't nearly as high, Shepard isn't gambling the entire Galaxy's fate away like he is by relying on a strange artifact they found on Mars, the only lives on the line are his own team and so they might be killed on the other side of that relay...and they know it. This isn't a plothole, it's an akcnowledged risk.

 ME 3 however has multiple plotholes which Bioware explicitly refuses to seal up with either dialogue or more information. You see, that's how Bioware shot themselves in the foot in ME3, whilst previously they relied on dramatic devices and action, in ME 1 and 2, they also had a watertight narrative through the 'information' dialogue' options, something they got rid of in ME3. By doing this, the gamer goes from a well-informed actor on the stage to a passive viewer with Shepard being nothing more than another set-piece rather than an instigator of events. ME 3 thus is not only falls short in terms of narrative but from a gameplay viewpoint as well.

[Bleachrude]

*sigh*

Interloper, you're not thinking this through.

Saren DOES NOT know what the conduit is at the time of the Eden Prime attack. That's the whole reason he went to eden prime to try and figure out what the hell the conduit was.

So how could he plan to use the geth via a backdoor into the citadel if he does not know there IS a backdoor given that we see evidence that Saren had been planning this for a while

(and I dont think Saren figures out what the conduit is himself UNTIL he reaches Ilos since none of the beacons OR the thorian or rachni actually tell you what the conduit IS. They point you in the right direction but nobody knows except Vigil).

(You'll also notice that when you yourself go through the conduit that you're 3 man team can put down any geth left over so how large a strikeforce did Saren actually need given that?)

EDIT: ME2

How can you have dossiers on various people if you dont know what you're going to need? Mordin is the only dossier that makes sense since they get him specifically for his expertise to create a serum versus the seeker swarms.

And even here it gets a little "dont look too closely at the plot" as at the time, Tim & miranda state that the abductions of colonists had no clues but at Freedom's progress, you somehow capture a seeker swarm so that Mordin can create a serum  against them so you're safe once you reach Horizon if I remember the timeline correctly.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 29 mai 2013 - 12:09 .

[Interloper]

Bleachrude wrote...

*sigh*

Interloper, you're not thinking this through.

Saren DOES NOT know what the conduit is at the time of the Eden Prime attack. That's the whole reason he went to eden prime to try and figure out what the hell the conduit was.

So how could he plan to use the geth via a backdoor into the citadel if he does not know there IS a backdoor given that we see evidence that Saren had been planning this for a while

(and I dont think Saren figures out what the conduit is himself UNTIL he reaches Ilos since none of the beacons OR the thorian or rachni actually tell you what the conduit IS. They point you in the right direction but nobody knows except Vigil).

(You'll also notice that when you yourself go through the conduit that you're 3 man team can put down any geth left over so how large a strikeforce did Saren actually need given that?)

EDIT: ME2

How can you have dossiers on various people if you dont know what you're going to need? Mordin is the only dossier that makes sense since they get him specifically for his expertise to create a serum versus the seeker swarms.

And even here it gets a little "dont look too closely at the plot" as at the time, Tim & miranda state that the abductions of colonists had no clues but at Freedom's progress, you somehow capture a seeker swarm so that Mordin can create a serum  against them so you're safe once you reach Horizon if I remember the timeline correctly.

 The point being that every plothole is going to be considered a bigger disaster when it comprises a more susbtantial part of the plot. Saren DID know what the Conduit was, the only thing the Cipher told him was where to LOCATE it, which Saren goes on to use once he's attempted to construct his army(which evidently isn't as large as it could have been because Shepard thwarts his efforts multiple times)  Vigil is NOT the only one who knows, and it was most likely indicated by various sources or due to plans in the Citadel itself. However, even if you consider this 'exclusive knowledge' a plot hole, that is in no way as large a plot hole as the glaring plot hole of the Mars super-weapon plan which instantly appears in the wake of the Reaper invasion and becomes the ONLY way to defeat the Reapers because it holds the only plans for locating the Reaper command centre. 

 ME 2 is such a smal plot detail that the fact this occurs is utterly trivial. So what, it's a gameplay device designed to ensure you can actually land on Horizon and play the mission. It's nothing compared to the fact that Shepard can breathe on the Citadel's outer surface or the idea of the Starchild using a giant wave which has enough energy to transmit throughout the entire galaxy and change everyone's DNA structures. 

 The major point to be made here is the proportional relationship between how major a piece of the plot is being discussed, and thus, how large the plothole is going to be. Small plot details will inevitably have little impact on the narrative of the game. Large plot details will have a much larger impact on the narrative and hence, those plot holes are justifiably criticised as ruining the story.

 The ME gameplay relies on story thus where the story fails, so too does the game itself.