213 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...

But Saren doesn't know what the conduit IS. That's what I'm trying to get across.

Saren NEEDS the conduit for his plan because he was SEARCHING for the conduit.

So What's wrong with it, Saren is searching for the conduit because he knows what it is, but he doesn't know where it is, that's why he went to Eden Prime, what's the stretch with that?

[nos_astra]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
But that's not how they were presented. 

In essence, the Eden Prime beacon was a half-assed version of the Virmire beacon, but it was simply damaged. Basically, it did not provide him with any information which his beacon on Virmire didn't already contribute.

I always took the "vision" as some sort of visual representation not indicative of the real information the beacon made available. After all Shepard needed an asari with some Prothean knowledge to figure out what it meant ... and oh look, the Mu relay. Seriously?

I couldn't tell whether one beacon contained all the information ... or just pieces of some sort of puzzle. The piece of said puzzle being the cipher that was needed to access the information in the Virmire beacon which contained the location of Ilos?

Yes, there is a lack of exposition. But it doesn't contradict previously established lore. That's the good thing about being the first installment.

With Mass Effect, it looked like Bioware was borrowing from KotOR's Star Maps, but forgot to mention that all of the maps were damaged and needed to complete the puzzle.

I have never played KotOR but I still figured this was the case.

Saren becoming directly involved was foolish,at best and designed strictly to give the player something to follow.

Yeah, Saren was like an elephant in a china shop. With Sovereign's ability to indoctrinate he could have gained access to whatever beacon he needed without blowing up a human colony and alarming everyone and their grandmother.

Modifié par klarabella, 29 mai 2013 - 01:07 .

[Bleachrude]

Since when did Saren OR Sovereign know what the conduit was? That would inalidate going to Eden prime in the 1st place since the whole reason he used the beacons was to figure out what the hell the protheans did. That was the whole point of going to Eden Prime as all they knew was that the conduit was partly responsible for screwing up the keepers.

That's part of the reason why they went after Liara since Benzenia and Saren thought Liara would know what it is.

indeed, none of the beacons tells you what the conduit is as Vigil himself will mention that all records pertaining to Ilos and what was there were wiped out empire wide.

And it still doesn't explain why Saren actually needs the geth or the krogans as a strike force. Pre Eden prime, Saren walking into the council chambers with Benzenia and her cadre of asari comandos would NOT trigger even a 2nd look.

Hell, you and your squad can be decked out in full loadout and visit the council chamger anytime you want and nobody says diddly since you're a spectre (and you're a spectre for less than 1 month). Indeed, how many C-sec guards do you actually see there?

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...

Since when did Saren OR Sovereign know what the conduit was? That would inalidate going to Eden prime in the 1st place since the whole reason he used the beacons was to figure out what the hell the protheans did. That was the whole point of going to Eden Prime as all they knew was that the conduit was partly responsible for screwing up the keepers.

Wrong, Saren used to Beacons to find the conduit which they were searching for, please don't start to invent problems which aren't there.

Modifié par Fixers0, 29 mai 2013 - 01:34 .

[Bleachrude]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Since when did Saren OR Sovereign know what the conduit was? That would inalidate going to Eden prime in the 1st place since the whole reason he used the beacons was to figure out what the hell the protheans did. That was the whole point of going to Eden Prime as all they knew was that the conduit was partly responsible for screwing up the keepers.

Wrong, Saren used to Beacons to find the conduit which they were searching for, please don't start to invent problems which aren't there.

ARGH!!!!

If Saren and Sovereign know what the conduit is, they DO NOT NEED IT since pre Eden Prime, Saren is the greatest spectre of all time and his partner is one of the most highly respected matriachs of Thessia.

They can stroll in to the council chamber anytime they want with a cadre of asari commandos and do whatever they want.

You can go into the council control room yourself and note how few guards there are (and given his spectre status, how hard would it be for Saren to who know, put indoctrinated guards in the rotation. Hell, he doesn't even need that..just find out what the guard schedule/rotation is)

Saren does not need to SNEAK In pre Eden prime. How many times do I have to say this?

You yourself can walk into the chambers with your squadmembers heavily armed and not one word is said. When Saren does use the conduit, how many geth units do you actually fight on the presidium itself?

Your 3 person team is able to take down geth and krogans without any trouble yet Saren + Benzenia + asari commandos with total surprise in the middle of the council chambers actually will have problems?

[TheProtheans]

They know they made it so the signal did not work, but if they really wanted to they could have bypassed the signal by going straight to the source and doing exactly what they attempted to do at the end of ME1.

[Interloper]

Bleachrude wrote...

Since when did Saren OR Sovereign know what the conduit was? That would inalidate going to Eden prime in the 1st place since the whole reason he used the beacons was to figure out what the hell the protheans did. That was the whole point of going to Eden Prime as all they knew was that the conduit was partly responsible for screwing up the keepers.

That's part of the reason why they went after Liara since Benzenia and Saren thought Liara would know what it is.

indeed, none of the beacons tells you what the conduit is as Vigil himself will mention that all records pertaining to Ilos and what was there were wiped out empire wide.

And it still doesn't explain why Saren actually needs the geth or the krogans as a strike force. Pre Eden prime, Saren walking into the council chambers with Benzenia and her cadre of asari comandos would NOT trigger even a 2nd look.

Hell, you and your squad can be decked out in full loadout and visit the council chamger anytime you want and nobody says diddly since you're a spectre (and you're a spectre for less than 1 month). Indeed, how many C-sec guards do you actually see there?

You're really clutching at straws here. It is patently obvious that Benezia's commandos and Saren would not be nearly enough to secure the Citadel so the only way for Saren to secure the Citadel would be through transferring his Geth onto the station and the Conduit, far from being the only means becomes the most convenient means to do this. You constantly refer a small plot detail such as the fact that your two man squad can walk in full load out when this occurs even before you become a spectre. You know why? It's because during this time, you're in a GAME, where you are still playing as a character, not serving as a narrative element.

The C-Sec guards are not there since they probably didn't have enough memory to put them all there in the first game but C-Sec is always, from a narrative viewpoint told to be a substantial force and even in the Citadel Coup in ME 3, for all its plotholes it still shows C-Sec managing to hold back save the fact that Cerberus required indoctrinated agents to let Cerberus through.

 The existence of the Conduit itself is never explicitly referred to as the 'Conduit' by Sovereign but he learns of its existence indirectly by the fact that the Keepers are inactive. This is what piques his interest in learning about it so that he can understand it. Saren does this by accessing the beacon, which is perfectly reasonable considering the fact that he slaughters almsot everyone on Eden Prime and leaves no evidence save Shepard, who isn't even a spectre at this stage. The logical consistency holds up, I DARE you to even point out any part of the last 15 minutes of ME 3 that makes any sense whatsoever. It's evident that ME 2 and ME 1 hold up substantially more s than ME 3.

[Bleachrude]

Why would they need to secure the citadel?

They need to secure the citadel control room which is in the council chambers.

And I'm going to use your own words against you.

You flat out state that Sovereign doesn't know what the conduit is. If sovereign and saren don't know what the conduit is, just that it exists and somehow involved in why the keepers aren't responding, how exactly was Saren planning to take over the citadel in your scenario?

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...
If Saren and Sovereign know what the conduit is, they DO NOT NEED IT since pre Eden Prime, Saren is the greatest spectre of all time and his partner is one of the most highly respected matriachs of Thessia.

You don't seem to quite understand the difference between What and where.

Bleachrude wrote...
They can stroll in to the council chamber anytime they want with a cadre of asari commandos and do whatever they want.

You don't seem to quite understand the Mass Effect lore.

Bleachrude wrote...
You can go into the council control room yourself and note how few guards there are (and given his spectre status, how hard would it be for Saren to who know, put indoctrinated guards in the rotation. Hell, he doesn't even need that..just find out what the guard schedule/rotation is)

You yourself can walk into the chambers with your squadmembers heavily armed and not one word is said. When Saren does use the conduit, how many geth units do you actually fight on the presidium itself?

Your 3 person team is able to take down geth and krogans without any trouble yet Saren + Benzenia + asari commandos with total surprise in the middle of the council chambers actually will have problems?

You don't seem to understand the meaning of gameplay and story segegration.

Modifié par Fixers0, 29 mai 2013 - 02:13 .

[Interloper]

Bleachrude wrote...

Why would they need to secure the citadel?

They need to secure the citadel control room which is in the council chambers.

And I'm going to use your own words against you.

You flat out state that Sovereign doesn't know what the conduit is. If sovereign and saren don't know what the conduit is, just that it exists and somehow involved in why the keepers aren't responding, how exactly was Saren planning to take over the citadel in your scenario?

 Sovereign has two goals:
i)learn what has interfered with the Keeper signal
-Saren finds the beacon to learn of the Conduit
-strongly suspects this is what has interfered with the signal or is related to it
-goes off to find out what it is, potential to interfere with Sovereign's plans
-lamentably Shepard survives the bomb and Geth attacl
-perhaps thinking that a frontal assault can work
-Thorian+Rachni+Krogan army plans are devastated, must find another way 
-he finds out what it is, starts devising a plan to use it
-he is stripped of his Spectre status, the Conduit becomes his priority, it is now not only the most convenient way t is the only way
-he uses the Conduit
ii)attempt to acquire control of the Citadel
-initially Thorian, Rachni army might help him do this
-Conduit soon becomes best bet of acquiring Citadel

[BaladasDemnevanni]

[quote]Fixers0 wrote...

You don't seem to quite understand the difference between What and where. [/quote]

No, the distinction is pretty clear. But if Saren knows what the Conduit is, he has no need of it, since he himself has easy access to the Citadel Chambers. If Saren doesn't know what the Conduit is, it doesn't make sense why he's prepped all his troops outside Ilos.

[/quote]

[quote]
You don't seem to understand the meaning of gameplay and story segegration.
[/quote]

Speak for yourself. Gameplay and story segregation is what occurs when it takes place during gameplay. Your characters are clearly rendered in cut-scenes and conversations with the Council equipped with all your weapons.

Gameplay-story segregation means that what takes place in gameplay (Ex: combat) has no narrative bearing. Ex: Why it can take a million hits with a lightsaber to kill one dude, when it should only take one.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

klarabella wrote...

I couldn't tell whether one beacon contained all the information ... or just pieces of some sort of puzzle. The piece of said puzzle being the cipher that was needed to access the information in the Virmire beacon which contained the location of Ilos?

We're getting confused here though. The Cipher didn't contain the location of Ilos, the cipher contained the context for other organics to understand the Prothean visions. Although somehow, it seems Liara is the one who actually determines the location of Ilos, despite Shepard possessing the Cipher. The Rachni Queen had the location of the Mu Relay, which is necessary to reach Ilos.

The reason I say it makes little sense is because if the Protheans' goal was to warn everyone about the Reapers, it's a remarkably inefficient mechanism to require access to multiple beacons, especially with no actual clue as to where others might be located, just for another species to understand that a genocide/great purge will be coming.

[Fixers0]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

No, the distinction is pretty clear. But if Saren knows what the Conduit is, he has no need of it, since he himself has easy access to the Citadel Chambers. If Saren doesn't know what the Conduit is, it doesn't make sense why he's prepped all his troops outside Ilos.

Not really, The conduit was used to have a large scale geth troop movement onto the citadel to surpess any armed restance that would occur.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Speak for yourself. Gameplay and story segregation is what occurs when it takes place during gameplay. Your characters are clearly rendered in cut-scenes and conversations with the Council equipped with all your weapons.

Unfortunatly, being animated with their weapons on has nothing to do with narrative, it's just a gameplay mechanic caried over into cutscenes for the sake of consistancy.

[Bizinha]

One think I dislike in ME3 is the depressive mood in all game.
You don't win a war if don't fight and have hope.