583 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

A femme fetale.

Except she's not, really.

A femme fatale uses charm and seduction to get people (typically men) to do things against their better interests.  Brigid O'Shaughnessey from The Maltese Falcon, for example.  Miranda is strong, direct, and demands respect.  An "ice queen"  by some descriptions.  She doesn't seduce people into doing things for her, she takes charge and gets it done herself


So why does a strong, capable character like that need an outfit that oullines every crevice?

[David7204]

Would you consider yourself a feminist?

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

Would you consider yourself a feminist?

\\

Answer my question first, and I may answer yours.

[David7204]

People who used the phrase 'strong, capable, (female) character usually are. I've always found it to be a rather irritating phrase.

Miranda takes pride in her body and is willing to use it as a tool. No, don't actually see that on screen, but that doesn't really matter. Instead of asking 'Why does she need to wear it?' perhaps you should be asking yourself 'Why is she not allowed to wear it?'

Is feminism about choice?

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

People who used the phrase 'strong, capable, (female) character usually are. I've always found it to be a rather irritating phrase.

Miranda takes pride in her body and is willing to use it as a tool. No, don't actually see that on screen, but that doesn't really matter. Instead of asking 'Why does she need to wear it?' perhaps you should be asking yourself 'Why is she not allowed to wear it?'

Is feminism about choice?

Miranda could wear that outfit all she wants, as a casual wear

But in a combat mission or other missions she will need some armor, which the Appearance pack solved that problem to an extent

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

People who used the phrase 'strong, capable, (female) character usually are. I've always found it to be a rather irritating phrase.

Miranda takes pride in her body and is willing to use it as a tool. No, don't actually see that on screen, but that doesn't really matter. Instead of asking 'Why does she need to wear it?' perhaps you should be asking yourself 'Why is she not allowed to wear it?'

Is feminism about choice?

Reminds me of people who try to argue that the burqa is a symbol of "female liberation."

This is the opposite end of that spectrum. I'd have more respect for the character if she were not so aggressively flaunted as a sex object.



I fail to see how wearing a leotard that rides up the crotch into a gun fight illustrates a strong character.

[David7204]

It might amaze you to learn that there are plenty of women, including Islamic feminists, that are perfectly willing and accepting of customs like the burqa. You oughta get your head out of your ass. Implying that their weak little minds have just been brainwashed into submission because no woman would possible choose it freely is incredibly insulting.

Modifié par David7204, 31 mai 2013 - 04:51 .

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

It might amaze you to learn that there are plenty of women, including Islamic feminists, that are perfectly willing and accepting of customs like the burqa. You oughta get your head out of your ass. Implying that their weak little minds have just been brainwashed into submission is incredibly insulting.

Not to deviate too far, but is it wrong to acknowledge that there are parts of the world where there is, in fact, no choice as to whether one wears it?

[David7204]

Of course not. But it's very wrong to imply that only a brainwashed woman would choose it when they do have a choice.

Modifié par David7204, 31 mai 2013 - 04:54 .

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

People who used the phrase 'strong, capable, (female) character usually are. I've always found it to be a rather irritating phrase.

Miranda takes pride in her body and is willing to use it as a tool. No, don't actually see that on screen, but that doesn't really matter. Instead of asking 'Why does she need to wear it?' perhaps you should be asking yourself 'Why is she not allowed to wear it?'

Is feminism about choice?

Very well, and now i'll answer yours.

No, I do not consider myself a feminist.  I do respect women, though.

So when I say Miranda is a "strong, capabnle woman" I mean that literally.  Sorry if it irritates you.

Miranda is a brilliant scientist, a natural leader, physically and mentally far above the norm, a powerful biotic.  And a (formerly) high ranking Cerberus operative.  She is a woman who knows how to take and give orders.  She is someone to be taken seriously.  Her outfit should reflect that:  Sure it could emphasise her figure, but she is stern and businesslike, a commanding presence that demands respect.

You ask me why she shouldn't wear that outfit, I'll tell you why:  Image.  A coat and tieis not the same thing as jeans and a t-shirt.  A business suit is not the same thing as business casual.  You don't wear the same outfit to a gaming convention you wear to a funeral (except under very strange and probably rare circumstances)  Some outfits are serious.  Some are not.

Miranda's outfit is not something one takes seriously.  It might be an outfit she'd wear if she was actively trying to seduce someone, but we never see her attempt that.   We see her as a Cerberus officer, second in command of the Normandy, a job which she should put forth a commanding presence.  And in ME3, she's a fugitive on the run from both the Alliance and Cerberus (and maybe others) where she should be doing her best to not draw attention to herself.

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

Of course not. But it's very wrong to imply that only a brainwashed woman would choose it when they do have a choice.

I implied no such thing. I've simply highlighted that it is, in fact, symbolic of oppression in certain parts of the world.

To get back on topic, I view Miranda's outfit as serving no purpose but to objectify her in the eyes of thirteen-year-old boys. It's ridiculous both in and out of combat. I'd have preferred she wear, say, the Cerberus Officer uniform available in FemShep's ME2 wardrobe while on the Normandy, and combat-appropriate armor (like the alt. appearance DLC) when in combat. Something that projects competence, confidence, an air of authority; not "OMG BEWBS!"

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mai 2013 - 05:03 .

[David7204]

Let me ask you a question.

Do you find the image of a woman kneeling before a man, submitting herself to him, sexist?

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Let me ask you a question.

Do you find the image of a woman kneeling before a man, submitting herself to him, sexist?

What are you talking about David?

It's like your trying to find random things to add in this argument just to make yourself be right

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

Let me ask you a question.

Do you find the image of a woman kneeling before a man, submitting herself to him, sexist?

Depends on what kind of situation we're talking about. A man kneeling before a woman, another man, or a woman kneeling before a woman are similar scenarios. "Sexism" isn't what immediately comes to mind in any of them, but then you aren't providing context. They could be getting knighted, for all I know from your description.

I fail to see the relevance, however, to Miranda dressing up in spandex with the camera positioned so her ass takes up half of the screen. THAT screams objectification.

FYI, the image in my above post was from a critique on a feminist website (link)

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mai 2013 - 05:13 .

[David7204]

'Mass Effect fail.' Gosh, what a mature title. Way to sound professional right there.

What I was talking about just now is objectification, is it not? The woman surrenders her freedom, her choice, doesn't she? Those things are stripped from her. That's not objectification? Made less like a human and more like an object?

Modifié par David7204, 31 mai 2013 - 05:22 .

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

'Mass Effect fail.' Gosh, what a mature title. Way to sound professional right there.

What I was talking about just now is objectification, is it not? The woman surrenders her freedom, her choice, doesn't she? Those things are stripped from her. That's not objectification?

what the frak are you  talking about?  You give a  scene with  no context and expect a blanket statement to be made to...what prove a point?

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

'Mass Effect fail.' Gosh, what a mature title. Way to sound professional right there.

What I was talking about just now is objectification, is it not? The woman surrenders her freedom, her choice, doesn't she? Those things are stripped from her. That's not objectification?

Again, you've provided no context in your scenario, and have done nothing to tie it to the topic at hand. How is this:


NOT an attempt to reduce Miranda to a sex object?

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

'Mass Effect fail.' Gosh, what a mature title. Way to sound professional right there.

What I was talking about just now is objectification, is it not? The woman surrenders her freedom, her choice, doesn't she? Those things are stripped from her. That's not objectification?

what the frak are you  talking about?  You give a  scene with  no context and expect a blanket statement to be made to...what prove a point?

[David7204]

Okay, let's try this from another direction.

Explain to me how Liara having pretty blue eyes and perfect skin and a slim waist isn't an attempt to make her a sex object. She doesn't have to have any of that. Why did BioWare put it there?

Explain to me how Tali having full breasts and hips isn't an attempt to make her a sex object. She doesn't have to have any of that. Why did BioWare put it there?

Modifié par David7204, 31 mai 2013 - 05:30 .

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

Okay, let's try this from another direction.

Explain to me how Liara having pretty blue eyes and perfect skin and a slim waist isn't an attempt to make her a sex object. She doesn't have to have any of that. Why did BioWare put it there?

Explain to me how Tali having full breasts and hips isn't an attempt to make her a sex object. She doesn't have to have any of that. Why did BioWare put it there?

I'm not saying it hasn't been done elsewhere. Sadly, it has.



This statue design, if I recall correctly, was retracted by Bioware due to poor reception from the fans. It's all in the same vein, though. Miranda, Samara, and ME2 Jack simply have particularly severe cases of it, which naturally get more attention.

Are you done dodging yet?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mai 2013 - 05:36 .

[David7204]

It really should be obvious that this is not dodging. So what you're telling me is that Liara having those pretty blue eyes is a problem? Liara having perfect skin is a problem? Liara having that slender waist is a problem? That correct? You just said so. Not as much of a problem, but still a problem. Right?

Modifié par David7204, 31 mai 2013 - 05:36 .

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

It really should be obvious that this is not dodging. So what you're telling me is that Liara having those pretty blue eyes is a problem? Liara having perfect skin is a problem? Liara having that slender waist is a problem? That correct? You just said so. Not as much of a problem, but still a problem. Right?

I'm getting tired of hashing this out with you. It's nowhere near on the same level - nowhere near as blatant - and you know it.

Character design incorporating traits seen as attractive are one thing - there's nothing wrong with that. Inflating that to the level of a comic-book caricature and squeezing it into a costume looking like it belongs in a strip club, complete with camera angles emphasizing those traits, is something else.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mai 2013 - 05:42 .

[shodiswe]

I would prefer if one would use full body armor/suit when you're exposed to hostile Environments or when there is a risk of getting exposed like with hull breaches and similar.

If you're on earth then it would depend on the type of activity. For a head on assault full suits of armor could provide some kind of benefit.

In more infiltration and stealth type missions or 007 type missions it would make more sense to blend in. I really liked the Casino part of the Citadel DLC.
And it made sense that you wern't wearing bulky armor during such a mission.

I do think that armors should provide some kind of increase to shield power and perhaps some type of damage reduction. Perhaps higher clip capacity. It obviously woudl be easier to fit shield generators and powercells on a set of armor than more cassual gear/infiltration gear.

Modifié par shodiswe, 31 mai 2013 - 05:39 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

It really should be obvious that this is not dodging. So what you're telling me is that Liara having those pretty blue eyes is a problem? Liara having perfect skin is a problem? Liara having that slender waist is a problem? That correct? You just said so. Not as much of a problem, but still a problem. Right?

You're being coy now. You know damn well what he's getting at, and you're changing what you're saying. 

You don't have to pretend to be intelligent anymore.

Swinging the stick pretty well, David.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 31 mai 2013 - 05:42 .