583 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Okay, I'll just put it this way. Whether you like the design of Miranda's appearance or not is up to you, but her appearance is blatant objectification and sex appeal. Like it or not, it's your choice, but don't deny something for what it is.

You may have changed the thread title but this is really what your point is isn't it. There is nothing inherantly wrong with blatant objectification and sex appeal, only in the absence of character development. I would say that Mirandas outfit sort of suits her personality. She is certainly a little narcisistic (not all her fault as her father can certainly claim most of the blame.)

I agree that the camera shots were a little gratuitous and I also agree that player characters should not be shoe horned into this particular look. But! Players (to an extent) t do not have the right to demand that characters conform to THEIR own standards or dress codes! Miranda, like all characters was created in the minds of the story tellers and ultimately belongs to them. Not the players. 

[RadicalDisconnect]

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Okay, I'll just put it this way. Whether you like the design of Miranda's appearance or not is up to you, but her appearance is blatant objectification and sex appeal. Like it or not, it's your choice, but don't deny something for what it is.

omg  lol  ok  well your entitled to your opion  icant really say any morethan that .... we will just  agree to disagree......but I will  say  i hope  Bioware   out doesthem self  even  better next time .

Fact is that the design of Miranda's appearance has blatant sex appeal and objectification.

Opinion is whether you prefer that or not.

[Ajensis]

daaaav wrote...
(...) But! Players (to an extent) t do not have the right to demand that characters conform to THEIR own standards or dress codes! Miranda, like all characters was created in the minds of the story tellers and ultimately belongs to them. Not the players.

Who's demanding anything? I thought we were just discussing what we personally prefer.

And just because the characters and the story belong to Bioware doesn't mean we can't criticise those elements if we find that there's reason to do so. It's about providing feedback to Bioware and give them the impression that some of us would like less sexualisation and more immersion, even if it's doubtful they'll ever be influenced by it.

Modifié par Ajensis, 31 mai 2013 - 07:36 .

[daaaav]

Ajensis wrote...

daaaav wrote...
(...) But! Players (to an extent) t do not have the right to demand that characters conform to THEIR own standards or dress codes! Miranda, like all characters was created in the minds of the story tellers and ultimately belongs to them. Not the players.

Who's demanding anything? I thought we were just discussing what we personally prefer.

And just because the characters and the story belong to Bioware doesn't mean we can't criticise those elements if we find that there's reason to do so. It's about providing feedback to Bioware and give them the impression that some of us would like less sexualisation and more immersion, even if it's doubtful they'll ever be influenced by it.

Apologies, demand was the wrong word. I only meant to express frustration that people seem to think that characters exist and exist only for them. I.e. if a character is scantily clad, then the developers only did it to pander to the player and the character has no opinion on the matter at all. 

It aids my immersion when characters dress the way I think they would want to dress and I understand that fantasy worlds do not have the same conventions as our own. 

[RadicalDisconnect]

daaaav wrote...

Ajensis wrote...

daaaav wrote...
(...) But! Players (to an extent) t do not have the right to demand that characters conform to THEIR own standards or dress codes! Miranda, like all characters was created in the minds of the story tellers and ultimately belongs to them. Not the players.

Who's demanding anything? I thought we were just discussing what we personally prefer.

And just because the characters and the story belong to Bioware doesn't mean we can't criticise those elements if we find that there's reason to do so. It's about providing feedback to Bioware and give them the impression that some of us would like less sexualisation and more immersion, even if it's doubtful they'll ever be influenced by it.

Apologies, demand was the wrong word. I only meant to express frustration that people seem to think that characters exist and exist only for them. I.e. if a character is scantily clad, then the developers only did it to pander to the player and the character has no opinion on the matter at all. 

It aids my immersion when characters dress the way I think they would want to dress and I understand that fantasy worlds do not have the same conventions as our own. 

I'm just expressing my preference for less blatant sex appeal, even if it does add to characterization. It got rather gratuitous in the case of Miranda, and I think it's just rather silly and immature. I prefer an art style with more practicality and functionality over pure aesthetics. Again, I'm not demanding or expecting everyone to agree with my preference. I do think it's a problem when some are seemingly denying that the sex appeal and objectification exists.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 31 mai 2013 - 07:59 .

[NovaBlastMarketing]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Okay, I'll just put it this way. Whether you like the design of Miranda's appearance or not is up to you, but her appearance is blatant objectification and sex appeal. Like it or not, it's your choice, but don't deny something for what it is.

omg  lol  ok  well your entitled to your opion  icant really say any morethan that .... we will just  agree to disagree......but I will  say  i hope  Bioware   out doesthem self  even  better next time .

Fact is that the design of Miranda's appearance has blatant sex appeal and objectification.

Opinion is whether you prefer that or not.

 Making that particular  point seems really important to you  and I said  before your entitled  to that  opinion .

 If you  question  is do i perefer  full body amour  like samus  over  Mirandas  outfit   Miranada outfit  wins everytime .

 Its funny you nver mentioned Jack in all this . I never  romanced jack  didnt  connect  with  her personality at all  but I  think somthing similar  to Jacks out fit would  have been even better on Miri   

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 31 mai 2013 - 08:09 .

[Ajensis]

^ So you're saying there's no sex appeal behind the design of Miranda's appearance? And that Jack's belt-strap across the chest would suit Miranda better? Well, now I've heard everything

daaaav wrote...
Apologies, demand was the wrong word. I only meant to express frustration that people seem to think that characters exist and exist only for them. I.e. if a character is scantily clad, then the developers only did it to pander to the player and the character has no opinion on the matter at all. 

It aids my immersion when characters dress the way I think they would want to dress and I understand that fantasy worlds do not have the same conventions as our own.

Okay, I see what you mean. I guess maybe everyone would be happy if we had one set of clothes for when they're on the Normandy ("the way they would want to dress") and another, more combat-ready suit, for when they're on missions. It's fine with me if they take some liberties (although I'd still prefer a return to ME1's way of doing it), but the aforementioned issues, like minimal to no protection if their shields go down and high heels, seem to suggest that Bioware are less concerned with building a coherent game world than they used to be.
There's no right or wrong here, it's simply a question of what each of us would like to see a stronger focus on. And I really liked the influence a writer like Chris L'Etoile seemingly had, concerning himself with 'Does it make sense?' Even though it's all fiction, I think the fiction is stronger when it's more believable - and breather masks in space and high heels during combat isn't very believable. But yeah, I won't attempt to claim that my viewpoint is any truer than someone else's we're just looking for two different games. Besides, I have a strong feeling ME"4" won't deviate too much from ME3's style, so most people will arguably be happy with that and the rest of us will have to settle for what we get. Luckily, I'm not really that bothered by this topic, so it'll be an easy pill to swallow for me.

Modifié par Ajensis, 31 mai 2013 - 08:14 .

[NovaBlastMarketing]

You know there is an easy fix to this whole thread ...all the developer has to do is include both types of apperance all you do is choose your preference at the start of the game or the kind of function they have already in the system. the cinematics would be a little more difficult but in reality

This is one situation where it may not be easy to do but  at least possible make everyone happy . 

Although i didnt take camera shots into account ..so i guess there is still that  but hey i tried

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 31 mai 2013 - 08:16 .

[Indy_S]

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

You know there is an easy fix to this whole thread ...all the developer has to do is include both types of apperance all you do is choose your preference at the start of the game or the kind of function they have already in the system. the cinematics would be a little more difficult but in reality This is one situation where its at least possible to make everyone happy .

I feel like that would be a lot of effort but even then, I think I would appreciate that effort.

[NovaBlastMarketing]

Ajensis wrote...

^ So you're saying there's no sex appeal behind the design of Miranda's appearance? And that Jack's belt-strap across the chest would suit Miranda better? Well, now I've heard everything

No im saying  there is nothing wrong with  that fact .

The point I was trying to convey is that I have seen people make it out to be a big deal out of it and grab the `sex appeal is wrong , immature    etc etc etc banner way to often having an  opinion  is one thing  

outright saying or even implying it is blatantly wrong  as  *fact*  is another . 


It still boils down to just your opnion.


As for the Jack reference .....part of it well basically I was pointing out that people pick on Miranda when jacks outfit was ...well not really even there....I didn't say it would suit her better .... persay  just  sayin she would look good in it in fact

IMO if Miranda and Jack were wearing the same outfit Miranda would win
hey since you brought it up  are you saying it wouldn't ?                          

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 31 mai 2013 - 08:42 .

[NovaBlastMarketing]

bahh hit the wrong button when trying to edit .

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 31 mai 2013 - 08:31 .

[Ajensis]

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...
No im saying  there is nothing wrong with  that fact .

The point I was trying to convey is that I have seen people make it out to be a big deal out of it and grab the `sex appeal is wrong , immature    etc etc etc banner way to often having an  opinion  is one thing  

outright saying or even implying it is blatantly wrong  as  *fact*  is another . 


It still boils down to just your opnion.

Oh, right, but that's simply what RadicalDisconnect has been saying too:

"Whether you like the design of Miranda's appearance or not is up to you,
but her appearance is blatant objectification and sex appeal. Like it
or not, it's your choice, (...)" and

"Fact is that the design of Miranda's appearance has blatant sex appeal and objectification.

Opinion is whether you prefer that or not."

You seemed to object to both those posts, which is why I jumped to the conclusion above.

As for the Jack reference .....part of it well basically I was pointing out that people pick on Miranda when jacks outfit was ...well not really even there....I didn't say it would suit her better .... persay  just  sayin she would look good in it in fact

IMO if Miranda and Jack were wearing the same outfit Miranda would win
hey since you brought it up  are you saying it wouldn't ? 

I'm not sure what you're asking here - whether Miranda would look better in Jack's outfit? If so, then no, it wouldn't suit her at all. She's a respectable lady and wouldn't want to expose all that skin like that, it would be below her dignity. But it works for Jack (in non-combat scenarios), because she doesn't give a damn, even if it's very silly... In fact, I always immediately change to her loyal outfit in ME2 when possible.

[NovaBlastMarketing]

Ajensis wrote...

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...
No im saying  there is nothing wrong with  that fact .

The point I was trying to convey is that I have seen people make it out to be a big deal out of it and grab the `sex appeal is wrong , immature    etc etc etc banner way to often having an  opinion  is one thing  

outright saying or even implying it is blatantly wrong  as  *fact*  is another . 


It still boils down to just your opnion.

Oh, right, but that's simply what RadicalDisconnect has been saying too:

"Whether you like the design of Miranda's appearance or not is up to you,
but her appearance is blatant objectification and sex appeal. Like it
or not, it's your choice, (...)" and

"Fact is that the design of Miranda's appearance has blatant sex appeal and objectification.

Opinion is whether you prefer that or not."

You seemed to object to both those posts, which is why I jumped to the conclusion above.

As for the Jack reference .....part of it well basically I was pointing out that people pick on Miranda when jacks outfit was ...well not really even there....I didn't say it would suit her better .... persay  just  sayin she would look good in it in fact

IMO if Miranda and Jack were wearing the same outfit Miranda would win
hey since you brought it up  are you saying it wouldn't ? 

I'm not sure what you're asking here - whether Miranda would look better in Jack's outfit? If so, then no, it wouldn't suit her at all. She's a respectable lady and wouldn't want to expose all that skin like that, it would be below her dignity. But it works for Jack (in non-combat scenarios), because she doesn't give a damn, even if it's very silly... In fact, I always immediately change to her loyal outfit in ME2 when possible.

I really do.... I dont see why  people   need  to  carry that as a banner. As i mentioed earlier  I have  herd /seen that comment   regarding  si swimsuit issue  victoria secret stuff,  various commcerials...etc.

It may  be just my impression on how I am interpreting their comments. My impression is the way they are wording that I dont take  it as them expressing an opinion it seems  like  they are passing judgement and impling  her design was in fact  inhearatly wrong  in the same sense as "theft" is wrong  and shouldnt be done at all. 

********************************************

 That  is another  subjective  opinion. I hope your not stating that as fact. I f  you are.IMO recpectable/classy  dosnt have anything to  do  with showing skin as you said  jack can  pull it off why cant   Miranda  thats   is  a calssic  example of a double standard. ......Even though i have no romantic feeling for jack i still  repect  her  she has the power to go down a very dark path but chooses not to ,  she  is trying to better herself  and leave her past behind and in me 3 she is a very repectable  teacher who cares about her students but  still  mostly has the same out fit.

.if  you want  a more  detailed explain on  my opinions of attire and  respect that  its in one  of the reply's   in the thread i posted ealier.

*********************************************

Actually i was stating it more   as a contest  lol  ....but that is also subjective  i guess.

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 31 mai 2013 - 09:36 .

[Reorte]

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

As for the Jack reference .....part of it well basically I was pointing out that people pick on Miranda when jacks outfit was ...well not really even there....I didn't say it would suit her better .... persay  just  sayin she would look good in it in fact

That (IMO at any rate) is because Miranda looks like she was designed by a horny teenage boy she's so over the top whereas Jack's outfit fits her character perfectly.

[nos_astra]

Exactly, Jack is something else. Her look is supposed to be inappropriate and shocking which is exactly what her character would want.

Miranda on the other hand would probably want to look capable and superior. It's not a stretch to think she'd use sex to manipulate. However, I'd like to think that she's go for classy instead of cheap. Her constantly showing off her assetts combined with her - sorry - whining about how she's cursed with perfection because daddy is a nut takes a strong female character and turns her into an insecure little girl, craving a guy's approval.

I'm not sure what to think about this aspect of her character. Was it intentional and supposed to soften the impact of a strong woman on the target group? Is this a good or a bad thing?

Modifié par klarabella, 31 mai 2013 - 02:51 .

[darkway1]

Art style rules.....and practicality should go out the window in context of the game.

Superman's out fit for example is a brilliant creative design,however in reality the outfit just looks stupid,impractical and the concept of wearing your brightly coloured underwear on the outside of your clothes is just plain retarded.

Personally Bioware does amazing character development,the gear is an extension of their character/personality......you know what they represent before they even open their mouths,that's great design.

Applying reality and practicality to everything just makes everything visually/creatively bland.

There is a universal fix for this issue,developers could release different outfits.....sexy combat swimsuits for some......military battle suits for others......everyone's happy,job done.

[Linkenski]

I like how Mass Effect is colorful and cartoonish sometimes. They should keep that. For example the Mass Effect 3 Normandy had so much more detail, but to me it was a detracting factor because it felt much more cramped and it was darker and more atmospheric wheras in ME2 it felt like your private little heaven in space, and it was just cozy and relaxing. I prefer it that way.

[conjmk]

"Would you prefer the art style to put more emphasis on functionality?"

No, it's a role playing game, not call of duty.

Modifié par conjmk, 31 mai 2013 - 06:09 .

[Fixers0]

conjmk wrote...

"Would you prefer the art style to put more emphasis on functionality?"

No, it's a role playing game, not call of duty.

Since when where functionality and role playing games mutally exclusive?

[Bleachrude]

Reorte wrote...

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

As for the Jack reference .....part of it well basically I was pointing out that people pick on Miranda when jacks outfit was ...well not really even there....I didn't say it would suit her better .... persay  just  sayin she would look good in it in fact

That (IMO at any rate) is because Miranda looks like she was designed by a horny teenage boy she's so over the top whereas Jack's outfit fits her character perfectly.

But isn't in-universe Miranda SUPPOSED to be the somewhat (scratch that, DEFINITELY) creepy brainchild of the narcissim of Henry Lawson?

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...

But isn't in-universe Miranda SUPPOSED to be the somewhat (scratch that, DEFINITELY) creepy brainchild of the narcissim of Henry Lawson?

She's also supposed to be intelligent, and I can tell you, no person with half a brain would wear Miranda's "uniform" into combat.

[Steelcan]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

But isn't in-universe Miranda SUPPOSED to be the somewhat (scratch that, DEFINITELY) creepy brainchild of the narcissim of Henry Lawson?

She's also supposed to be intelligent, and I can tell you, no person with half a brain would wear Miranda's "uniform" into combat.

Hence the alternate appearance armor

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Bleachrude wrote...

Reorte wrote...

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

As for the Jack reference .....part of it well basically I was pointing out that people pick on Miranda when jacks outfit was ...well not really even there....I didn't say it would suit her better .... persay  just  sayin she would look good in it in fact

That (IMO at any rate) is because Miranda looks like she was designed by a horny teenage boy she's so over the top whereas Jack's outfit fits her character perfectly.

But isn't in-universe Miranda SUPPOSED to be the somewhat (scratch that, DEFINITELY) creepy brainchild of the narcissim of Henry Lawson?

This is one reason I like her alternate appearance outfit (ME2) a bit better. It still emphasizes that narcissim, but it still looks like it could take a punch.

[AresKeith]

Steelcan wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

But isn't in-universe Miranda SUPPOSED to be the somewhat (scratch that, DEFINITELY) creepy brainchild of the narcissim of Henry Lawson?

She's also supposed to be intelligent, and I can tell you, no person with half a brain would wear Miranda's "uniform" into combat.

Hence the alternate appearance armor

Now if only they did one for Jacob and Samara

[NovaBlastMarketing]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

But isn't in-universe Miranda SUPPOSED to be the somewhat (scratch that, DEFINITELY) creepy brainchild of the narcissim of Henry Lawson?

She's also supposed to be intelligent, and I can tell you, no person with half a brain would wear Miranda's "uniform" into combat.

Sigh this is a game  not actual combat.....that is  the whole point of the discussion....... and for the unknown amout of time why i did a simmilar thread.

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 31 mai 2013 - 07:14 .