57 réponses à ce sujet

[Twisted Path]

It does seem like most romances in Bioware games revolve around "fixing" a character. I would love to see more exceptions to that.

[Kroitz]

J. Reezy wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I never liked Morrigan to be honest. She's just another Mary Sue in my opinion.

Your mother's another Mary Sue.

You both have a point.

[Ieldra]

EntropicAngel wrote...
See, this is funny, because on my very first playthrough of DA:O I fell in love with Morrigan, romanced her, and watched her change in small ways.

In small ways, yes. That's ok with me. But there weren't any major changes that made her appear a completely different person. She didn't change her values, and she didn't suddenly develop a case of high empathy, and all the time she had her plans, and stuck to them and didn't suddenly forget them just because she came to love the Warden.

I also liked in Witch Hunt, that if you wanted to be together with her you had to follow her, not the other way round. I wouldn't want this for every character of course, but I found it very appropriate. My only regret is that I couldn't say "I want to see how this plan of yours works out." 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2013 - 07:43 .

[leighzard]

@Qistina - Moral relativism doesn't really work.
There's a girl in my sister's class who has a tattoo on her thigh that says "Only God can judge me." As it turns out that's simply not true, I'm judging her right now for that tattoo on her thigh. I doubt my judgment matters to her; only God's does. Much the same way, the warden's judgment may not matter to Sten, only that of the Qun, but I think building a relationship with him can change his point of view as well.

But this thread is about character development. And I see where the OP is coming from. Isabela, for example, who appears at first solely self interested will bring back the tome if Hawke has a strong enough relationship with her. I happen to think that doesn't make her any less badass, it just means her priorities have changed and helping Hawke falls under "self-interest" to her now (she's still pretty serious about her ship, after all). But, to jump games here, Shepard really can change the personality/opinions of Kaidan/Ashley through a LI relationship with either character. It seems like this second situation (and I guess it can occur with Leliana and Alistair in DA:O) is the sort of thing that can be interpreted as weakening a character. While I'd have liked to see that influence on Kaidan/Ashley carry over between games, I do agree that if the character changes to meet the pc's expectations that he or she can lose some of what originally made the character unique and appealing.

[Twisted Path]

Mary Sue does kind of get thrown around so much that the term has lost all meaning. How about "pet character" though? Morrigan always struck me as someone's pet character, a bit like Aria from the Mass Effect games.

[Ieldra]

leborum wrote...
But this thread is about character development. And I see where the OP is coming from. Isabela, for example, who appears at first solely self interested will bring back the tome if Hawke has a strong enough relationship with her. I happen to think that doesn't make her any less badass, it just means her priorities have changed and helping Hawke falls under "self-interest" to her now (she's still pretty serious about her ship, after all).

There are some suggestive dialogues late in the romance, in Act III, that make her a borderline example, but it isn't all that bad. As for the book, I don't mind her bringing it back, only how Hawke's upper response plays out. Wheel paraphrase: "I'm glad you're back". Spoken: "You did the right thing". Well, I *am* glad she's back, but this Hawke couldn't care less about the book as such and the supposed rightness of bringing it back. In fact, he thinks it would be better destroyed, but it helps him get rid of the qunari and that's good. 

But, to jump games here, Shepard really can change the personality/opinions of Kaidan/Ashley through a LI relationship with either character. It seems like this second situation (and I guess it can occur with Leliana and Alistair in DA:O) is the sort of thing that can be interpreted as weakening a character. While I'd have liked to see that influence on Kaidan/Ashley carry over between games, I do agree that if the character changes to meet the pc's expectations that he or she can lose some of what originally made the character unique and appealing.

Indeed, it's much more a problem endemic to ME. However, I see a similar tendency between DAO and DA2. Archetypes got simpler, character development got streamlined and non-optional. Mainly, I've posted this to draw attention to the problem and help prevent DAI from going the way of ME in this.

[David7204]

People liked the characters in Mass Effect because of this. I like them because of this. The characters follow Shepard because s/he is right.

Modifié par David7204, 29 mai 2013 - 08:57 .

[Hazegurl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...
That's why I would love to have an enemy LI. Someone with goals separate from the protagonist that offer more of a challenge. I don't want to play therapist for my LI to help him "fix" himself.

Enemy LIs are most prone to the hated "softening" mechanic I described, particularly if they're women. Also, if they're enemies, they almost need to change their goals at some time, right?

I'd rather have a grey LI as an ally from the start, or starting out a neutral party. That way there's less motivation for changing them.

I think there is a way to avoid the "softening" by perhaps having the option to agree with and even join the LI. At least for a few side missions or something before they betray you, perhaps join their way of thinking near the end or have a sort of Irene Adler situation. Where they are off doing their thing that you may or may not agree with, they get you in a load of trouble when they contact you, but you manage to have your fleeting moments of intimacy before they are gone again.  I wouldn't mind coming across an enemy LI who can actually change my mind about my actions or make me question who I'm working for etc instead of the protaganist being responsible for changing them. 

[Ainyan42]

I think Bioware does a good job of showing how romance - and interaction - with a strong personality brings out the better qualities in the NPC LIs.

In ME, romancing Kaidan doesn't make him weaker. Arguably, it makes him stronger. Look at Horizon - a lot of people get angry with Kaidan for his reaction to Shepard when they meet up on Horizon, but it's actually a very genuine reaction. She /died/ in front of him - and when Cerberus brought her back, did she make any effort to find him? No. So when he meets up with her on Horizon, he has every right to be angry. He doesn't fall all over himself to say 'Shepard, my love, let me abandon my duties and join back up with you!' - in fact, he quite firmly puts her in her place if she's foolish enough to ask him to do just that. He doesn't allow his love for her to overcome his honor or duty - I think that's a pretty clear point of strength right there. His later letter makes it clear he still has feelings for her, but he's not willing to set aside his principles just because of those feelings.

In DA2, Fenris is willing to leave Hawke, despite his affection for her. That's certainly not a sign of someone who is bending to their LI's (formidable) will. Does he change because of his relationship with Hawke? Certainly - because the very fact that she's managed to punch through his self-hatred and make him see that there is more to life than revenge is certain to make him reevaluate his life's priorities. Despite this fact, however, he doesn't magically think mages are wonderful, even if Hawke herself is a mage or his a heavy supporter of the mages. Likewise with Anders - he doesn't suddenly give up his persecution of the Chantry just because Hawke supports them.

Relationships change you, pure and simple. Instead of thinking only of your own wants or desires, you're going to start thinking of what another person wants and desires as well. Sometimes, their point of view will make you realize that your point of view was skewed. Sometimes, that difference of opinion is something the two of you will just have to deal with and compromise on. And Bioware does a good job of determining what each character is willing to let slide, what each character is willing to compromise on, and what each character is going to stick to no matter what.

[Milan92]

The OP has a point but....

Real life experience showed me that its not unusual or weird if people are beign influenced by others (especially ones they are very close with.)

So while I don't want companions to become tools, I don't see the problem if the player has the option to influence their morals or viewpoints or even personality over the course of the game.

[Dave of Canada]

I agree with the premise of the thread, Morrigan was done well because while she softens, it's only to the main character and she still doesn't give a **** about other people.

David7204 wrote...

People liked the characters in Mass Effect because of this. I like them because of this. The characters follow Shepard because s/he is right.

Only because Shepard has the personality of a gnat and absorbs the life of everyone he encounters.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 mai 2013 - 10:43 .

[Sjpelke]

I did LOTS of DAO playthroughs but always as a female so never romanced Morrigan..

I do really like her character as she did stick to her believes and even though my choice ingame and the banter between a male character and her (yes, I've watched the youtube clips about that) while being involved did not get her of her main projective......the way things in DAO and DA2 have been played out comparing Morrigan and Anders were differant...

Not just the way the romance evolved (that happened or did not) but how the whole game evolved according to choices made and how the build in things just happened. If you as a player romanced Anders he would blow up the chantry no matter what...Mottigan would leave in the end no matter what but for me there was a difference in meaning while playing both games..

In DA2 several decisionmaking (as in main quests) should lead to a different outcome because as a player decided against it...which did not happen in DA2.. No matter what decision I as a player in my game, the outcome would stay the same. No matter for ppl who only play the game once but for me as a metagamer VERY dissapointing..

Not talking about minor plot twists but overall end fight, getting what you as player were going for kind of thing. In DA2 whatever side you choose for went to hell...

Could be of course that I am a to optimistic gamer here who just wants to save the world...

Conclusion in would be nice though, had that in DAO but did not get that in DA2. DA2 did not provide a satisfactionary ending because of all the loose ends and choices that did not matter.

[sandalisthemaker]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Isabela was kind of grey, i think.

Yes....but did she stay that way? That's at least debatable.

Yes, she remains grey, perhaps a lighter shade of grey, but grey nonetheless. If romanced she will still sleep w/ Zevran. She's still all about coin and sailing off away from Kirkwall at some point remaining free at almost any cost. She won't become jealous if Hawke romances Tallis in MotA. You can also have Isabella in a secondary romance while romancing another character. It doesn't lead anywhere, but it is there. The only thing that significantly changes about Isabella is that she brings back the Qunari book and even then she'll still run off for good if the player doesn't do her quest first or tells her to give it back the Qunari. Isabella remains Isabella.

Actually Isabela doesn't get jealous if *male* Hawke flirts with Tallis. (To appeal to straight male harem fantasy)
She does get jealous if *female* Hawke flirts with Tallis.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

The characters follow Shepard because s/he is right.

This is true when you're playing Renegade.

[Chiramu]

A companion a bit like Anora would be good, she was such a good female character it's a shame that she barely got any parts and her speech at the battlefield sounded like it was made with a synthesiser.

I don't care about badass, I just want a woman who can stand up for herself without resorting to using her sex as a weapon.

[Hazegurl]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The characters follow Shepard because s/he is right.

This is true when you're playing Renegade.

or they follow my Renegade cause they know he'll toss them out the airlock

[Solmanian]

i think what the OP is trying to say is that she doesn't want companions to be pushovers slaved to the will of the PC.

Modifié par Solmanian, 30 mai 2013 - 12:54 .

[Solmanian]

J. Reezy wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I never liked Morrigan to be honest. She's just another Mary Sue in my opinion.

Your mother's another Mary Sue.

Does that mean that he's the OGB?

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In small ways, yes. That's ok with me. But there weren't any major changes that made her appear a completely different person. She didn't change her values,

She does a 180 on love and friendship. That's a pretty drastic change in values.

and she didn't suddenly develop a case of high empathy, and all the time she had her plans, and stuck to them and didn't suddenly forget them just because she came to love the Warden.  

Morrigain also developed a case of empathy - look at her feelings when leaving the Warden. You're right that she doesn't give up her goals, but that's not the same as a pretty drastic character change. 

[Cutlass Jack]

I never liked the Morrigan we had.

And she absolutely does change from her relationship with the Warden.

[Jorji Costava]

Well, I like Morrigan a lot as a character, but I'm not so sure she's the best example for what the OP has in mind here. I don't think her value system is supposed to be set up as an equally valid and coherent way of thought in the same way that the Qun is established; otherwise, I doubt we'd get such an extensive Freudian explanation of why she has it. Her lack of empathy is, from the start, set up as something that isn't necessarily an expression of her deepest self but largely a perversion of that due to the pernicious influence of her mother and the shunning of apostate mages by society at large. The job of the PC is to help her recover some of the nobility she doesn't realize she has. You can take that character arc or leave it, but it's not the best example for what the OP seems to be trying to get at. Sten or even HK-47 from way back in KOTOR would probably fit better.

I can sympathize with the basic concern; we don't need the companions to worship at the alter of the PC, and we don't need the PC to have final say over how they develop as people. This is partly why I wasn't as bothered by Mordin's sudden desire to cure the genophage as some; obviously, meeting Eve had a profound effect on him, and who says that can't change his views as deeply, if not more so, than his conversations with Shepard?

[n7stormrunner]

ummm. slightly off topic but isn't one of the main.. if not the main trait of a mary sue that everyone likes her/him no matter how rude, ugly or insulting... who like morrigan beside the warden in story?

on another note the op may what to replay again morrigan does change alot, more if you romance her. it is not always easily seen but it happens.. assuming you have high approval. which I would prefer it be with most characters. sten however is more or less the same sure he may talk to dogs and likes the warden but that is more or less it.

[LadyJaneGrey]

I'm trying to come up with a DA NPC whom the PC does not and indeed can AVOID influencing (well, outside of refusing to interact with them at all). Possibly Dog?