184 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

I honestly don't know.  It strikes me that not having to worry about them (or even perhaps not needing a consistent canon from one game to the next) would grant the writers greater freedom to write as they see fit, without worrying about accommodating the previous game's divergent paths.  It would also, I would think, amount to some savings in the word budget, thus allowing deeper plots (because there could be fewer plots).

But maybe I'm wrong about this.  Maybe the writers enjoy working within the restrictions save imports provide.  Maybe there's a difference of opinion among the writers.  I don't know.  I'm admittedly biased on this one, since I don't really see the value in save imports, but I'm curious whether the writers see value (or drawbacks) in them purely from a writing standpoint.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 29 mai 2013 - 11:00 .

[DatOneFanboy]

No its fine its fine

[Tinu]

The positive thing about it, is that the writers have created a story where there are variables. So players have experienced it in different ways.

[embraceternity]

Of course, I and no one but the writers themselves could answer this question. To each their own preference. That being said, as a girl who started writing choose-your-own-adventure stories in a notebook on her free time since the age 6, I love writing variations of the same situation, and writing the sequence of events based on those choices.

I of course have no experience with writing sequels to such a story that imports your previous decisions, but it personally sounds appealing to me? Hard work, and stressful for sure, but very rewarding. But I hope a BioWare employee can give us insight on their opinion, based on their actual experiences.

Modifié par embraceternity, 29 mai 2013 - 11:16 .

[Deebo305]

Easier without save imports for sure but again depends on their preference like embraceeternity mentioned. But plotting out sequel that calculates for every variable can often end up messy. Possibly why EA/Bioware has people set up Origin accounts and link their games to them , so writers can look at data and see what alot of gamers chose or chose not to do and adjust a potential story thread

[Ymladdych]

I'd imagine that it's a mixed bag, for all the reasons you listed.

[ArcaneJTM]

I think it would depend on the writer. No imports would certainly be easier, but you kind of take all the fun out of having world changing choices in the game when you do that. A save import allows you to explore all those "what if"s, but makes the writing more complex (which can be good or bad). Also, for practical reasons, it's difficult to fully express the changes between save states. Thus the reason why most differences are more or less simply acknowledged as having taken place rather than having any real significance.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I honestly don't know.  It strikes me that not having to worry about them (or even perhaps not needing a consistent canon from one game to the next) would grant the writers greater freedom to write as they see fit, without worrying about accommodating the previous game's divergent paths.  It would also, I would think, amount to some savings in the word budget, thus allowing deeper plots (because there could be fewer plots).

But maybe I'm wrong about this.  Maybe the writers enjoy working within the restrictions save imports provide.  Maybe there's a difference of opinion among the writers.  I don't know.  I'm admittedly biased on this one, since I don't really see the value in save imports, but I'm curious whether the writers see value (or drawbacks) in them purely from a writing standpoint.

http://social.biowar...0204/5#14373470

David Gaider wrote...
There are indeed certain things that would be made much easier, story-wise, by simply establishing canon and proceeding from there. No doubt about that. It's the reason the vast majority of games don't have such continuuity between games, and arrange matters so that such continuuity wouldn't even be relevant.

Thing is, you'd lose something too. Yes, perhaps we'll never be able to take this to the ultimate point everyone imagines this to be-- where all those decisions branch out until they create a player's own personal storyline, completely divergent from everyone's else's and where every decision has complete relevance between games... but is that really necessary? Even if there are only select points of influence, that's really no different than in a single game itself. It's a question of maintaining the illusion.

Maybe someone feels that illusion hasn't been kept, and can't be kept unless their every decision is kept sacrosanct. And they feel that, if we can't do it, we shouldn't even try. I get that, and there are certainly days when I feel exactly the same myself. But there are also those for whom the illusion makes the world and the story so much more theirs, and that's not something they're apt to get anywhere else. They don't necessarily want to be told a story so much as they want to be part of it. Isn't that the ideal, here?

Ultimately, regardless of the arguments, it's a trigger that Dragon Age has already pulled. I suppose one could argue we could un-pull it, as we've done with some other pretty fundamental points of design... but I'd say this goes beyond game mechanics and is more of a promise which would be pretty hard to unmake now.

There are plans for how we're going to do the import thing, which I'm not at liberty to discuss. All I'll say is that the goal is to do it better... not to scrap it.

It would seem the writers (or, at least, David Gaider, the Lead Writer) seem to believe their life would be easier. And that since the DA series started down this path, there is no getting off it. 

Whether or not they PREFER it... I don't think they have said. Bioware writers like David, Mary, Lukas and I'm sure others have experience writing Bioware titles without the Import feature. Other newer writers like Patrick may have only worked on games with it. I don't know.

I would wager that there are definitely days when the writers are pulling their hair out due to the Import. And days when they feel frustrated that an idea may not pan out because there wouldn't be enough resources for it because of how it would set up future games or how it would be something only seen by a small group who had a certain import decision.

But they also seem to see that many fans find value in it., even if it cannot be a custom story that adheres to their every choice. The ideal of that is something I'm sure many of the writers can be excited about. But does chasing that ideal come with a cost to their end product? I'm of the mind that it must, in some way. But that does not mean that it is so.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 mai 2013 - 12:34 .

[Chiramu]

I think the writers would even prefer to have a fixed main character like in a JRPG so that they could make the protagonist have more of a presence and be able to really do things. A protagonist that is different for every person would be very difficult to write for.

I don't think save imports are any matter of concern, they have to write story in for every choice you could have made in the games so it should matter at all.

[Knight of Dane]

A good writer has the ability to make the best of what s/he's got.
There's no more to it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Knight of Dane wrote...

A good writer has the ability to make the best of what s/he's got.
There's no more to it.

A good writer could make a story without any use of the word "is" anywhere in it. That doesn't mean they couldn't make a better story without that one constraint?

[Knight of Dane]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

A good writer has the ability to make the best of what s/he's got.
There's no more to it.

A good writer could make a story without any use of the word "is" anywhere in it. That doesn't mean they couldn't make a better story without that one constraint?

Sure, but we are talking about writers that have a job here. At the most basic it's do that or quit. There's no force applied.

[Fast Jimmy]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

A good writer has the ability to make the best of what s/he's got.
There's no more to it.

A good writer could make a story without any use of the word "is" anywhere in it. That doesn't mean they couldn't make a better story without that one constraint?

Sure, but we are talking about writers that have a job here. At the most basic it's do that or quit. There's no force applied.

Well... that's a poor argument. 

There are many things in the workplace that are illegal because they made the environment worse or difficulty to work in. That's why there are laws against them. Usually these are much more heinous than the Save Import - things like sexual harrassment, or child labor, or blatant discrimination, etc. No one says "you were physically assaulted by your boss... you can put up with it or quit. There's no force applied."

Not that I'm saying there should be a law against Save Import writing, but... again... saying that the writers, who may have worked hard for years to get a job in video game writing, should just up and quit if they find writing the highest quality stories possible is hampered by a design decision like the Save Import is a little on the flimsy side.

[Knight of Dane]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

A good writer has the ability to make the best of what s/he's got.
There's no more to it.

A good writer could make a story without any use of the word "is" anywhere in it. That doesn't mean they couldn't make a better story without that one constraint?

Sure, but we are talking about writers that have a job here. At the most basic it's do that or quit. There's no force applied.

Well... that's a poor argument. 

There are many things in the workplace that are illegal because they made the environment worse or difficulty to work in. That's why there are laws against them. Usually these are much more heinous than the Save Import - things like sexual harrassment, or child labor, or blatant discrimination, etc. No one says "you were physically assaulted by your boss... you can put up with it or quit. There's no force applied."

Not that I'm saying there should be a law against Save Import writing, but... again... saying that the writers, who may have worked hard for years to get a job in video game writing, should just up and quit if they find writing the highest quality stories possible is hampered by a design decision like the Save Import is a little on the flimsy side.

There is always a argument for that, but writing is a school that you rarely can live off without mastering it. The writers in Bioware live a life many, including myself, dream of having and it's where they have to show they can master their restraints.

Independent writing is (for some) easier but also not always paying off.
In the end it comes down to the kind of work you like and the resolve you have towards any requirments you are met with.
The save import should be seen as a challenge to overcome, not a hinderance to avoid.

[In Exile]

Chiramu wrote...

I think the writers would even prefer to have a fixed main character like in a JRPG so that they could make the protagonist have more of a presence and be able to really do things. A protagonist that is different for every person would be very difficult to write for.

I'm not so sure about that. A lot of Bioware fans have lived with the impression that the writers were much more flexible about the PC when writing than they actually were. 

For example, they gave each origin a personality and they wrote the dialogue with the same triad as DA2 in mind (diplomatic, snarky/neutral, agressive). 

[Fast Jimmy]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

A good writer has the ability to make the best of what s/he's got.
There's no more to it.

A good writer could make a story without any use of the word "is" anywhere in it. That doesn't mean they couldn't make a better story without that one constraint?

Sure, but we are talking about writers that have a job here. At the most basic it's do that or quit. There's no force applied.

Well... that's a poor argument. 

There are many things in the workplace that are illegal because they made the environment worse or difficulty to work in. That's why there are laws against them. Usually these are much more heinous than the Save Import - things like sexual harrassment, or child labor, or blatant discrimination, etc. No one says "you were physically assaulted by your boss... you can put up with it or quit. There's no force applied."

Not that I'm saying there should be a law against Save Import writing, but... again... saying that the writers, who may have worked hard for years to get a job in video game writing, should just up and quit if they find writing the highest quality stories possible is hampered by a design decision like the Save Import is a little on the flimsy side.

There is always a argument for that, but writing is a school that you rarely can live off without mastering it. The writers in Bioware live a life many, including myself, dream of having and it's where they have to show they can master their restraints.

Independent writing is (for some) easier but also not always paying off.
In the end it comes down to the kind of work you like and the resolve you have towards any requirments you are met with.
The save import should be seen as a challenge to overcome, not a hinderance to avoid.

As the consumers of said work, should we be comforted by this fact when we see what we view as a decline in quality when writers attempt to overcome said challenges?

[Knight of Dane]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

A good writer has the ability to make the best of what s/he's got.
There's no more to it.

A good writer could make a story without any use of the word "is" anywhere in it. That doesn't mean they couldn't make a better story without that one constraint?

Sure, but we are talking about writers that have a job here. At the most basic it's do that or quit. There's no force applied.

Well... that's a poor argument. 

There are many things in the workplace that are illegal because they made the environment worse or difficulty to work in. That's why there are laws against them. Usually these are much more heinous than the Save Import - things like sexual harrassment, or child labor, or blatant discrimination, etc. No one says "you were physically assaulted by your boss... you can put up with it or quit. There's no force applied."

Not that I'm saying there should be a law against Save Import writing, but... again... saying that the writers, who may have worked hard for years to get a job in video game writing, should just up and quit if they find writing the highest quality stories possible is hampered by a design decision like the Save Import is a little on the flimsy side.

There is always a argument for that, but writing is a school that you rarely can live off without mastering it. The writers in Bioware live a life many, including myself, dream of having and it's where they have to show they can master their restraints.

Independent writing is (for some) easier but also not always paying off.
In the end it comes down to the kind of work you like and the resolve you have towards any requirments you are met with.
The save import should be seen as a challenge to overcome, not a hinderance to avoid.

As the consumers of said work, should we be comforted by this fact when we see what we view as a decline in quality when writers attempt to overcome said challenges?

That either means the writers aren't doing a good job, they don't have time to do a good job or they don't care.

Personally I don't see what you are trying to say. The story in DA2 is not dependent on the save import in the first place, so where is the connection? The only bits that are directly involved in the plot is Anders and Leliana being alive.

[Chiramu]

In Exile wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

I think the writers would even prefer to have a fixed main character like in a JRPG so that they could make the protagonist have more of a presence and be able to really do things. A protagonist that is different for every person would be very difficult to write for.

I'm not so sure about that. A lot of Bioware fans have lived with the impression that the writers were much more flexible about the PC when writing than they actually were. 

For example, they gave each origin a personality and they wrote the dialogue with the same triad as DA2 in mind (diplomatic, snarky/neutral, agressive). 

Yes but they were all still very limiting in personality and you couldn't have a voice in Origins because of the amount of voice actors needed to do all the lines for all the origins. 

[In Exile]

Chiramu wrote...
Yes but they were all still very limiting in personality

Not any more than Hawke was, in terms of the actual lines written. 

and you couldn't have a voice in Origins because of the amount of voice actors needed to do all the lines for all the origins. 

Whether there was an actual VO is very different from the writer's POV, in terms of having a "voice" that they're using to write for the protagonist. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If memory serves, they said they're going to consider not having imports in DA4, because it's getting unwieldy (though they haven't made any set in stone decisions on that score, last I heard.) That might answer the OP's question as well as it can be for now.

[BlueMagitek]

^ That would be unfortunate. But if they're just going to have a timeskip to avoid invalidating choices (time has a tendency to erase most things) then I would be grudgingly okay with it.

I'm sure writing is easier when you have a set canon to go off of. You don't need to ask yourself the "what if" and think about the branching paths.

But isn't that a part of the fun of it all?

[Fast Jimmy]

That either means the writers aren't doing a good job, they don't have time to do a good job or they don't care.

Personally I don't see what you are trying to say. The story in DA2 is not dependent on the save import in the first place, so where is the connection? The only bits that are directly involved in the plot is Anders and Leliana being alive.

I don't see the limits of the Save Import directly tied only to the information imported over that was directly retconned. In fact, retcons don't bother me in the least.

It is the concept that previous stories cannot be referenced in large ways. This goes beyond what David talks about in the quote I used above (or the statement he made earlier today in a different canon thread) where players may have the expectation that every choice they made will result in their own personal world being created. The fact that the games don't allow that is not the problem I perceive.

The problem is, instead, the fact that previous stories cannot be continued on with the Save Import. Ironic, I know, but it is true. Because a number of people could be on the throne of Ferelden, it will never matter who is on the throne. That is to say, it will not be different enough to tell a different story. Allistair on the throne means the same for the country as Anora or the Warden or any combination of the three.

Instead of one choice being taken as canon and advancing the story of Ferelden, ALL choices are carried forward, meaning the world is roughly the exact same, regardless who is on the throne. Could a writer tell a really amazing story about Allistair being on the throne and supporting the Mages while Anora, locked in the tower of Fort Drakon, secretly plots to overthrow him by throwing her support with the Templars? Sure, it sounds like an intriguing enough plot. But the writers CAN'T tell that story. Because it depends on certain choices in DA:O to match up and any one given story can't deviate too much from the beaten path of the others.

I could give similar examples about the king of Orzammar, or the Urn of Ashes, or the rate of Feynriel, or the life of Anders... but they all paint a similar picture. The Save Import makes all choices given to the player inherently diminished in the scope of what can happen because of them and work to limit what the writers can do with any given plot. Once the player has touched it with a choice, the story becomes reduced to a situation of straddling a middle ground that either halts the development of that storyline completely or results in a retcon.

I don't have a problem with the retcons or playing in a world with different choices than the ones I picked, because I understand that it makes for a more compelling game when the writers choose what stories they want to tell, including how those stories are set up initially.

[Fast Jimmy]

BlueMagitek wrote...

^ That would be unfortunate. But if they're just going to have a timeskip to avoid invalidating choices (time has a tendency to erase most things) then I would be grudgingly okay with it.

I'm sure writing is easier when you have a set canon to go off of. You don't need to ask yourself the "what if" and think about the branching paths.

But isn't that a part of the fun of it all?

Fun for the player, maybe. A nightmare and constant source of creative stifling for the writers in charge, I would imagine. 

[Knight of Dane]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That either means the writers aren't doing a good job, they don't have time to do a good job or they don't care.

Personally I don't see what you are trying to say. The story in DA2 is not dependent on the save import in the first place, so where is the connection? The only bits that are directly involved in the plot is Anders and Leliana being alive.

I don't see the limits of the Save Import directly tied only to the information imported over that was directly retconned. In fact, retcons don't bother me in the least.

It is the concept that previous stories cannot be referenced in large ways. This goes beyond what David talks about in the quote I used above (or the statement he made earlier today in a different canon thread) where players may have the expectation that every choice they made will result in their own personal world being created. The fact that the games don't allow that is not the problem I perceive.

The problem is, instead, the fact that previous stories cannot be continued on with the Save Import. Ironic, I know, but it is true. Because a number of people could be on the throne of Ferelden, it will never matter who is on the throne. That is to say, it will not be different enough to tell a different story. Allistair on the throne means the same for the country as Anora or the Warden or any combination of the three.

Instead of one choice being taken as canon and advancing the story of Ferelden, ALL choices are carried forward, meaning the world is roughly the exact same, regardless who is on the throne. Could a writer tell a really amazing story about Allistair being on the throne and supporting the Mages while Anora, locked in the tower of Fort Drakon, secretly plots to overthrow him by throwing her support with the Templars? Sure, it sounds like an intriguing enough plot. But the writers CAN'T tell that story. Because it depends on certain choices in DA:O to match up and any one given story can't deviate too much from the beaten path of the others.

I could give similar examples about the king of Orzammar, or the Urn of Ashes, or the rate of Feynriel, or the life of Anders... but they all paint a similar picture. The Save Import makes all choices given to the player inherently diminished in the scope of what can happen because of them and work to limit what the writers can do with any given plot. Once the player has touched it with a choice, the story becomes reduced to a situation of straddling a middle ground that either halts the development of that storyline completely or results in a retcon.

I don't have a problem with the retcons or playing in a world with different choices than the ones I picked, because I understand that it makes for a more compelling game when the writers choose what stories they want to tell, including how those stories are set up initially.

Okay, I see. Still, that is in regards of continued narrative with Ferelden in mind. I don't see any of those points as important to follow up on unless they actually take part in the story.

I think imports can be done in a meaningful way. Mass Effect already did that with the Genophage Arc in the third game. Basically there er a few different outcomes that in characterization and intention vary, but less so in the actual execution.

The same missions happen, but different outcomes are acheiveable wether or not you kept a cure sample from the second game and which Krogan leader was alive.

For me that is a fine execution.

When Dragon Age 2 was announced I was on the "let's continue our warden" boat, but had to realize that a new narrative took place.

Anora, Alistair or Cousland on the throne might not result in vastly different outcomes in terms of gameplay, but the ties that makes the string a rope can still differ. It might still affect something in a small regard while the bigger difference lies outside the game narrative. I doubt we would have to experience how Ferelden is ruled differently unless we actually interact with thir governance.

But you are right, fan expectation always set the bar 200% higher than reality, designers do that too. Something I've had to learn myself while studying the subject on University.

And frankly I hate it, but such is the business.