[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...
Actually, Shepherd was confirmed dead via Twitter, if memory serves me correct. That the breath scene was, in fact, the last breath of Shepherd.[/quote]
That's false. When people asked if it was confirmation, on twitter they shrugged and said, "maybe?" During some press conference or something they said it could be "the dying gasp" of Shepard.
But the reason they said that is because they WANTED ambiguity. I don't necessarily approve of it, but they did.
[quote]
There's a difference between telling us everything and tell us nothing outside of what our character knew before the ending even started.
For ME3 to tell us "you cured the genophage and the Krogan were happy about it" tells us nothing that we didn't already see. We don't know if there are factions who support galactic domination after the endings, if your choice of leader helped mitigate those obstacles or if the other races of the galaxy spurned or welcomed them.
You are, literally, told nothing you didn't already know. The Krogan are happy about the cure. Wrex, Eve and Grunt help lead them (if they are alive, otherwise it is other people). They don't discuss how your choice of who leads them or under what circumstances their struggle continues plays out at all.[/quote]
I already know how it will turn out, based on the leader though. That's the point I was trying to make. DA:O made it fairly obvious during the quest that Bhelen would free the casteless from most of their restrictions and open trade, yet have a much firmer control over the Dwarves in general (see: "and as my first order of business: Execute Harrowmont!" The Warden: I didn't get you elected so you could be a tyrant!)
That too tells us nothing outside of what we know now.
And I disagree a little bit about ME3: We definitely did not know that the Krogan were home. THAT'S the big point there.
[quote]DA:O didn't tell us every facet or possible question that could be addressed, but it did say that if you married Allistair and Anora, they were loved by the populace. If you hardened Allistair, he proved to be a more capable/engaged king/leader because of it. If you killed Loghain and named Anora queen, she visits her father's memorial if he was the one who did the Ultimate Sacrifice.[/quote]
And what does this have o do with the state of Ferelden on a global scale? Whether the people love Alistair or not doesn't tell me whether or not Orlais doesn't try to get involved, which is highly likely (I would argue).
Further, we already knew the people would love Alistair. That's something the game makes abundantly clear from the moment that Arl Eamon recovers and starts advocating for Alistair: that he's royal blood, that he would be popular with the people. Further, we already know he wouldn't be as effective: during one of your conversations with him in Denerim before the Landsmeet, he tells you bluntly that he won't be a good king.
Further, we're told by Eamon that Anora is quite crafty, and the game does its attempt to show us (I know you've argued that it isn't crafty at all). We know that if she gets on the throne, she'll rule..."well."
This isn't information the player doesn't have.
I'd argue it's the same problem. In ME3, that slide with Wrex tells us very plainly that he is loved by his populace.
[quote]You are given information that you would have no way of knowing outside of the ending. This information gives structure and form to the world after the player's actions are over, instead of leaving everything up to headcanon. Which is foolish. Especially when Bioware comes out and formally endorses some headcanon (like if the Krogan had friction with the galatic powers that be or if everything was rainbows and unicorns) while formally denouncing others (that Shepherd lived and found their LI and had 2.3 kids on a beach house or the dreaded Indocrtiniation Theory).[/quote]
I don't necessarily agree. I think I've shown why, but perhaps you can point to a flaw in my thought process.
[quote]But I'm not asking for finding out if curing the Genophage affected the Geth & Quarian peace. I'm asking for "okay, so what happened after Shepherd made his final decision?" DID the Krogan seek vengeance against the galaxy if you tricked them into fighting the Reapers and not curing them? This isn't decades or centuries down the road... it would be pretty apparent pretty quickly. But we aren't given anything about the outcomes.[/quote]
There's some fairness there. But by the same token, you could ask if any one of the factions in DA:O took revenge for some slight or trick of the Warden. The Elves for The Warden letting their hundreds-of-years-old leader die. The losing side in the Dwarf war (if they're still alive: does Harrowmont kill Bhelen?), if you go along with them for the plotline then switch while at...at...that place where they choose their kings.
My point is weaker here, but I feel it's valid.
[quote]While I agree, that's not my problem with the Epilogue Slides of ME3. My problem is that they didn't provide any of the answers or consequences people wanted to know. Does Control work? Is Hall Monitor Shepherd an effective deterent to galactic conflict? Does he go crazy and murder everyone? It is hinted that he does not (given that things are rebuilt), but I could headcanon it easily.
And that's the problem - if you can headcanon huge, drastic and galactic-shaping outcomes to even the most basic of questions, then there isnt' enough details given. You can have character/story reasons to make your decisions, but if they are going to give us Epilogue Slides that, in a ominscient, third person manner, give us information about the events after the end of the game, then they need to do so with some attention to our impact.[/quote]
I can headcanon that dissolving the Circle caused the mass populace to fear mages and kill their babies with magic. I can headcanon that it caused the blood-magic practicing mages to gain control over Ferelden and make it another Tevinter. I can headcanon that doing the elven boon (whatever it is, can't remember) empowers the elves and causes them to strike back against humans, starting a full-scale civil war in every city where some of the commoners who sympathize with elves help them, and the country's left a wasteland. And let's not even TALK about Awakening.
None of those are outlandish. They're like the kinds of things you're suggesting, are they not?
[quote]Not neccessariy. Harrowmont was a traditionalist, but was widely lauded as a good man. Yet this good man can and will send the golems to march on Dust Town, wiping out every casteless there. Similarly, the cutthroat, ruthless Bhelen winds up giving more rights and privileges to these people than they had ever seen. [/quote]
I saw no evidence at all of Harrowmont as a "good man." Perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention to him, but all I saw was "traditionalist."
I pointed out the Bhelen thing above.
[quote]What if the Krogan will, with the cure, quickly outgrow Tuchanka and need more resources and this leads to huge infighting? And Wrex is too soft to take the hardline, resulting in lots of clans breaking off and invading Council races? And what if Wreav is able to hold these groups in check, not to protect the Council races, but to cement his own power?[/quote]
Wrex IS shown taking a hardline--it's just not a violent hardline. It's a polically manipulative hardline. Wrex doesn't kill the males of other clans in ME2. He just tells them that they can't mate with fertile females. It's a non-violent, political mechaniation, but it isn't "soft" at all.
Fighting with each other and their violent nature is literally what got the Krogan here. The fact that Wrex is NOT this way tells me that he's taking the Krogan a new direction.
[quote]People can be right for the wrong reasons and right for the wrong ones. To say Wrex and Eve = automatic peace and happiness is something the endings allow you to headcanon, but my suggestion that they are woefully ineffective is just as likely. Some would say that is a value to the ME3 endings, but I'd say it is a huge deficit. You can imagine any choice you make being as good, bad or indifferent as you'd like... because the game gives you no context as to the consequence of them. Refuse could result in conventional victory, for all we are shown. In fact, given that the Buzz Aldrin scene, showing a (roughly) human form at the end means that possibly the same species survives regardless if you chose one of the more conventional chocies or if you chose Refuse, then that means Refuse means a win outside the Catalyst. We don't know. Because the endings are so ambiguous that anything is possible... which means nothing is important. A crappy way to end a trilogy[/quote]
I don't agree. Wrex's political manipulations along with Eve's female empowerment, I would argue is a very, very strong government that isn't likely at all to fall.
Wrong about Refuse. We're told, time and time again, by multiple people, that this can't be won conventionally. In ME1 it took an entire fleet to take down a single Reaper, and that was a Reaper that had its shields down because of Shepard.
Conventional victory was, and always has been, impossible.
[quote]They are good games. FO1 is great, FO2 is a pinacle in RPG gaming (in my opinion), FO3 was a great game with an ending that made the entire game feel hollow and FO:NV was an instant classic. You can, arguably, pick up FO:NV without playing any of the other games and get a good vibe for the feel of the series.[/quote]
I don't play post-apocalyptic games. Can't stand the setting.
[quote]I'd say it wasn't? You knew how lives for the dwarves were affected by who you chose as king and if they controlled the Anvil or not. You knew that the Dalish were ruled well under their new Keeper, or that the Werewolves slowly went insane if they didn't get have their curse removed. You knew that life in the Circle grew again or if it was given up as a haunted tomb. You even knew small details, like how Dagna went on to become a magical scholar or note, or how the boy in Redcliffe who let you use the Green Sword wound up beign an adventurer of their own years down the road.[/quote]
You knew for some unknown amount of time. The problem with ME3's slides from this standpoint, I would argue, is that it merely doesn't tell you how long.
Which, to be honest, neither does this.
[quote]Sure, the efforts of rebuilding, the possibility of an attack from Orlais and reclaiming the lands that were twisted with the Blight weren't outlined in detail, nor was the exact nature and threat of the darkspawn who didn't go back underground (who wound up being the focus in the Awakening Expansion), but this falls under "telling us everything." They don't need to do that. But they did give us plenty of details to see how the choices we made had large consequences, either in the lives of the people we dealt with or with the world we traveled through.
That's my measuring stick of the quality of an ending for a game/game series that champions itself on player choice. [/quote]
I would argue that the same is true for ME3.
Now, there are less choices in ME3 that in DA:O, so there will never be as many slides as there were in DA:O. But, I would argue that the efforts of rebuilding, the possibility of attack from Control Reapers, and reclaiming the lands twisted by the Reapers (or, using the relays and whatnot) really didn't matter either. And this feels like the same thing.
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Okay, fine. Then they are uber-slides. That doesn't make them not poorly done uber-slides. Because they were.
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Debatable. But somewhat subjective, no doubt.
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