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[kinderschlager]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Didn't they devs admit they went overboard with loony mages in DA2 and they'll be more careful about it in DAI?

I hope they are, since it just made me get fed up with everyone, mage, templars, randoms, going off their rockers and wish Hawke could just go "Fcuk off and die" to everyone and leave.

doing one last DA2 playthrew and man is it driving me nutty watching all the stupidity

[kinderschlager]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

kinderschlager wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'm hoping we'll have less mages and templar going insane, less Holocaust analogies and more both sides having legitimate grievances.

This.

More morally grey choices. Less "Im being repressed, now I'm a demon." or "I like locking people in towers and taking away their personalities."

we need a tyrion lanister like character in this game

Companion or NPC? (Or were you hoping to play as one? Because I think that'd be awesome.)

hell, i want both

[thats1evildude]

Filament wrote...

lol the point is that they're all villainous, though throwing Jowan and Connor in there may be a little confusing.

Jowan is perhaps a bit ill-fitting, though as I noted above, he's hardly a Paragon of Good, Sensible Choices. Connor is the "villain" of the Redcliffe arc by virtue of his demonic possession.

[Mr.House]

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...


How is Avernus villainous?

He kinda murdered a whole bunch of grey wardens to conduct his experiments, if you didn't notice all the torture equipment in his study...

You mean experiments that produced powerful results and also reaveled certain things to Avernus that where very important, so importantthat the courier with letters was killed by a group to stop the Wardens fromm getting the news?

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 mai 2013 - 03:26 .

[thats1evildude]

Filament wrote...

He kinda murdered a whole bunch of grey wardens to conduct his experiments, if you didn't notice all the torture equipment in his study...

And nearly unleashed a horde of demons on Ferelden. That he spent his declining years keeping them from escaping the Keep does not excuse the fact that he summoned said demons in the first place.

Sure, Sophia Dryden went along with it, but he could have said "no."

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 mai 2013 - 03:34 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

thats1evildude wrote...

Filament wrote...

He kinda murdered a whole bunch of grey wardens to conduct his experiments, if you didn't notice all the torture equipment in his study...

And nearly unleashed a horde of demons on Ferelden. That he spent his declining years keeping them from escaping the Keep does not excuse the fact that he summoned said demons in the first place.

He spent centuries preventing them from escaping the keep. That doesn't excuse the fact that he summoned them in the first place, but I'd argue the fact that it was his life on the line does. (Yeah, the demons don't necessarily help much on that score, but my understanding is that at that point it was either the really bad idea of summoning demons, or certain death.)

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

You mean experiments that produced powerful results and also reaveled certain things to Avernus that where very important, so importantthat the courier with letters was killed by a group to stop the Wardens fromm getting the news?

That doesn't make them any less morally bankrupt.

The moral principles I'm arguing most of my points off of are based in utilitarian logic, which are based on the principle that the moral thing to do is whatever results in the best results for the most people. Avernus's experiments, while messy, might actually lead to benefits for a large number of people. (True, Avernus couldn't have known that and thus can't justify himself on those grounds, but apparently his main objective with these experiments at first was to come up with the wards that kept the demons in the keep. I'd argue that's a worthy goal.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 03:35 .

[Mr.House]

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

You mean experiments that produced powerful results and also reaveled certain things to Avernus that where very important, so importantthat the courier with letters was killed by a group to stop the Wardens fromm getting the news?

That doesn't make them any less morally bankrupt.

Sometimes sacerfices need to be made. That does not make him evil or a villian or bad, he is one oft he few examples of a true gray character in the series.

[thats1evildude]

Given that, without the Warden's involvement, Avernus would have eventually died and said demons would be unleashed on Ferelden, I would say it doesn't excuse his actions.

Mr.House wrote...

You mean experiments that produced powerful results and also reaveled certain things to Avernus that where very important, so importantthat the courier with letters was killed by a group to stop the Wardens fromm getting the news?

His experiments didn't amount to jack s**t when it came to actually dealing with the demons in Warden's Keep. And I should note that in DA2, he gets the same Super Important Results by conducting his research ethically, meaning there was little gained by all that torture and murder.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 mai 2013 - 03:37 .

[Mr.House]

thats1evildude wrote...

Given that, without the Warden's involvement, Avernus would have eventually died and said demons would be unleashed on Ferelden, I would say it doesn't excuse his actions.

Now you're going into what if areas to support your claim what Avernus did was evil or uncalled for. Avernus made a mistake, he paid for it and decided to make amends by doing research for the wardens that improve them and he found things out. That outwieghs the bad.

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 mai 2013 - 03:36 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Mr. House: I'd sacrifice the human race to save the other millions of species of plants and animals from further torture, degradation and extinction. Invasive species should be destroyed post haste.

I thank you for your sensible endorsement of my grey morality.

[Mr.House]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Mr. House: I'd sacrifice the human race to save the other millions of species of plants and animals from further torture, degradation and extinction. Invasive species should be destroyed post haste.

I thank you for your sensible endorsement of my grey morality.

Hyperbole much?

[kinderschlager]

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...


How is Avernus villainous?

He kinda murdered a whole bunch of grey wardens to conduct his experiments, if you didn't notice all the torture equipment in his study...

put him on the straight and narrow though and he really benifits the wardens

OH! and those wardens he killed were rebels...

[Mr.House]

kinderschlager wrote...

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...


How is Avernus villainous?

He kinda murdered a whole bunch of grey wardens to conduct his experiments, if you didn't notice all the torture equipment in his study...

put him on the straight and narrow though and he really benifits the wardens

OH! and those wardens he killed were rebels...

Not just rebels, they where working for a corrupt king who killed many nobles. Being used for important reaserch is hardly that bad.

[thats1evildude]

kinderschlager wrote...

OH! and those wardens he killed were rebels...

Yes, they were rebelling against the same tyrant that Avernus was rebelling against. How is that an argument? 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 mai 2013 - 03:42 .

[bleetman]

Most people don't consider scientifc advancement justification for torture and murder.

Mr.House wrote...

kinderschlager wrote...

put him on the straight and narrow though and he really benifits the wardens

OH! and those wardens he killed were rebels...

Not just rebels, they where working for a corrupt king who killed many nobles. Being used for important reaserch is hardly that bad.

Wat.

Modifié par bleetman, 30 mai 2013 - 03:44 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Filament wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


The moral principles I'm arguing most of my points off of are based in utilitarian logic, which are based on the principle that the moral thing to do is whatever results in the best results for the most people. Avernus's experiments, while messy, might actually lead to benefits for a large number of people.

I would say if a utilitarian advocates murdering the person in front of you to potentially help some nebulous larger group of people, that's not someone I would be inclined to get behind.

That's not precisely what utilitarianism says. As I pointed out in my edit, however these experiments were apparently meant originally to keep the demons contained. That is something that justifies some gruesome things.

bleetman wrote...

Most people don't consider scientifc advancement justification for torture and murder.

In most cases, it isn't. But on the other hand, Avernus needed to keep those demons contained, and apparently figured out how to do it through his experiments. That's a pretty big thing.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 03:45 .

[NoForgiveness]

I agree with mr house. avernus's reasons were always the best, though his means are rather bad. still I consider him more of a shade of gray then a villian

[thats1evildude]

Mr.House wrote...

Avernus made a mistake, he paid for it and decided to make amends by doing research for the wardens that improve them and he found things out. That outwieghs the bad.

You're either skipping over or just ignoring my earlier point. As I said, his gruesome human experimentation doesn't help one iota when it comes to dispelling the demons at Warden's Keep. Not. One. Bit. And ultimately, those demons would have been unleashed on Ferelden had the Warden not shown up.

And should he be alive in DA2, he achieves virtually the same ends by conducting his research ethically. He just complains a lot about not being able to cut corners.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 mai 2013 - 03:53 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Filament wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's not precisely what utilitarianism says. As I pointed out in my edit, however these experiments were apparently meant originally to keep the demons contained. That is something that justifies some gruesome things.

It might, perhaps, if that immediate threat was really his only motivation; but it doesn't seem to be, considering that he'd prefer to continue conducting the same experiments the same way even after you solve his demon problem for him.

The motivation isn't what matters, the results are. I agree, however, that once the immediate threat is taken care of, he can no longer justify the same experiments the same way. (This is especially true since he apparently gets the same results from his more ethical ones.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 03:50 .

[Harle Cerulean]

It kind of boggles my mind that people are actually arguing that torture and murder are morally grey.

[Mr.House]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It kind of boggles my mind that people are actually arguing that torture and murder are morally grey.

It is when it's done for the greater good and not for personal gain or for the lulz. Avernus did neither of that.

[bleetman]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Most people don't consider scientifc advancement justification for torture and murder.

In most cases, it isn't. But on the other hand, Avernus needed to keep those demons contained, and apparently figured out how to do it through his experiments. That's a pretty big thing.

Yeah, I'm sure the demons he unleashed just hung around for years whilst he figured out how to contain them.