225 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It kind of boggles my mind that people are actually arguing that torture and murder are morally grey.

What I'm arguing is that limitedly good ends can justify limitedly bad means. Torture and murder like the sort Avernus did? Pretty bad. Keeping a whole bunch of demons that could otherwise get as far as Kirkwall safely contained in a castle out in the middle of nowhere? Pretty cool.

[NoForgiveness]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It kind of boggles my mind that people are actually arguing that torture and murder are morally grey.

the cia uses torture.

[bleetman]

MR_PN wrote...

the cia uses torture.

Oddly enough, people aren't a huge fan of that either.

Modifié par bleetman, 30 mai 2013 - 03:58 .

[UnderlAlDyingSun]

Naw, Mage's will just be all like...

Yes sur missa templa' sir, lawdy lawdy I shall neva roam again.

Regular pushovers this time around, like they were in origins

[thats1evildude]

bleetman wrote...

Yeah, I'm sure the demons he unleashed just hung around for years whilst he figured out how to contain them.

He actually did keep the demons from leaving the Keep, so that's to his credit. But that would have only lasted as long as he was alive, and he was near death in Warden's Keep, so those demons would have eventualy been unleashed on Ferelden. And his gruesome experiments yielded absolutely nothing that helped him in containing the threat, aside from extending his own lifespan.

If I deliberately smashed all the supports in an orphanage and then tried unsuccessfully to hold up the roof, would you count me as a villain or a hero when you're pulling the dead bodies of children out of the wreckage?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 mai 2013 - 04:02 .

[Harle Cerulean]

bleetman wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

the cia uses torture.

Oddly enough, people aren't a huge fan of that either.

Yeah, uh, just because the CIA does something it doesn't mean it's not inherently evil.  Say what you want about blood magic, we can argue that one around in circles forever, but torture is evil.  I don't care why you're doing it, or who you're doing it to, it's evil.  One can argue about the occasional necessity of it, but that doesn't make it less evil, even if you think it's a "necessary evil."

[NoForgiveness]

bleetman wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

the cia uses torture.

Oddly enough, people aren't a huge fan of that either.

yes it hasn't gotten the outrage that abortion or gay marriage has...

[thats1evildude]

Uh-oh, I sense an impending political discussion that has little to do with actual topic. I think I'm done here.

https://i.chzbgr.com...0400/hC36908D0/

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 mai 2013 - 04:09 .

[Plaintiff]

I don't think "all" or even most of the mages in DA2 are "psychopaths".

Although given the crap they have to put up with, they probably should be.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Filament wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The motivation isn't what matters, the results are. I agree, however, that once the immediate threat is taken care of, he can no longer justify the same experiments the same way. (This is especially true since he apparently gets the same results from his more ethical ones.)

But it's not clear that the results he got prior to the demons being sealed away were even relevant to that problem. It could be the only reason he couldn't seal them away earlier was because he didn't have anyone like the warden's party to protect him during the ritual. If the motivation guides the focus of the research away from actually solving the problem it's supposedly dedicated toward (and how it's being justified as necessary for some "greater good"), it is relevant.

thats1evildude wrote...
 And his gruesome experiments yielded absolutely nothing that helped him in containing the threat, aside from extending his own lifespan.

He claims that his experiments were largely for the sake of keeping the demons contained. If you doubt him, fine; we have only his word. On the other hand, if we take as read that his experiments were necessary to keep the demons where they were, then he's justified in them. If we take as read that some of them were, then those were and the others weren't.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 04:13 .

[IanPolaris]

MR_PN wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It kind of boggles my mind that people are actually arguing that torture and murder are morally grey.

the cia uses torture.

So do almost all police departments when interrogating suspects....depending on how loosely you define torture.  For example in the US, while physical abuse is forbidden and you DO have a right to an attorney, the police can (and often do) keep you locked up for hours and in discomfort.    Technically this could be construed as torture, but it's done because it's extremely effective.

-Polaris

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think "all" or even most of the mages in DA2 are "psychopaths".

Although given the crap they have to put up with, they probably should be.

Name me five decent mages in DA2.

[In Exile]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Blood magic and torture aren't the same thing.

No, but mind control is a subset (some might say the essence) of blood magic, and the justification offered for the moral basis of mind control is the same as that offered for torture. The only distinguishing ground is that we can't be sure that torture will work, though as we see with Hawke at the Pearl, a sufficiently strong mage can get around that anyway. 

As for mind control, it can sometimes be useful. If you want to take an armed criminal alive, its easier to do that with mind control than by disarming him or blasting him with an attack spell and hoping he lives. (A stunning spell might also work, as long as he's not standing on a hard surface when he hits the ground.)

The issue, though, is the violation of personal integrity and autonomy. It's, again, the difference between saying violence is immoral but justified in the circumstances and saying that violence is moral if justified by the circumstances. 

I'm not trying to take sides on this point - I just think it's an important distinction to bear in mind. I'm totally a consequentialist; but I understand where people would come from in calling blood magic evil. 

Okay, I think I see your point, but my moral leanings are towards the common good more than anything else. Mind controlling someone to steal from them or get your ship docked for free? Bad. Mind controlling a kobold so that he releases his hostage and leaves without further incident, or a criminal so that he surrenders to the proper authorities and I don't have to hurt him or risk being hurt? Cool.

Here's the thing with the 'common good' POV - you need to have a strong basis in empiricism to make it work. Mind controlling a kobold is only good if we can be sure that the exercise of mind control can be properly regulated and exercised. Which leads right into the discussion of Circles, and the moral quandry of how to regulate a person who can replicate the power of a tank division with his or her mind. 

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think "all" or even most of the mages in DA2 are "psychopaths".

Although given the crap they have to put up with, they probably should be.

Name me five decent mages in DA2.

That's not the same question at all. Psychopathy is a serious, real mental condition. Simply being "indecent", or even being a murderer, doesn't qualify someone as a psychopath.

Any list I provide will be purely subjective, and frankly I don't trust you to just disregard it with a "lolnope".

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 mai 2013 - 04:19 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Bethany, Ella, Terrie, Feynriel, and Solitivus.

[Face of Evil]

Mr.House wrote...

Name me five decent mages in DA2.

Merrill, Marethari, Alain, Feynriel, Emile de Launcet (he's a bit of an idiot but he's not hurting anybody) and Bethany.

EDIT: Damn, I forgot about Ella.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 30 mai 2013 - 04:25 .

[IanPolaris]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think "all" or even most of the mages in DA2 are "psychopaths".

Although given the crap they have to put up with, they probably should be.

Name me five decent mages in DA2.

That's not the same question at all. Psychopathy is a serious, real mental condition. Simply being "indecent", or even being a murderer, doesn't qualify someone as a psychopath.

Any list I provide will be purely subjective, and frankly I don't trust you to just disregard it with a "lolnope".

Now you are quibbling.  Sure psuchopathy is a serious and real mental condition, but the word has a large context and that context was clearly understood in that thread up to this point.  At this point I think you are being obdurate because you don't want to aknowlege the point.

The point is that in DA2, you had Hawke (either the PC or Bethany), Merrill, and the Mage Girl (I forget her name) that is about to be victimized by Alrik.  At that point you've pretty much exhausted your list of mages that were also decent human beings (and no I don't include Anders...someone that would massacre a cathedral full of people to make a political point is not a decent person IMO).

This makes for an extremely skews and unfair protrayal of mages presented to the players and iirc, the Devs admitted this some time ago (for DA2).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Face of Evil wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Name me five decent mages in DA2.

Merrill, Marethari, Alain, Feynriel, Emile de Launcet (he's a bit of an idiot but still a decent enough guy) and Bethany. I'll throw in Anders, who's decent enough by some standards.

Damn, I forgot about Ella.

I would not include Alain. He is a victim but he also is a bloodmage and willingly learned it.  I'll give you Emile (though he certainly is a dolt).  Can't agree about Marethari though.

-Polaris

[Face of Evil]

Alain initially rejects Decimus' insanity and was later coerced by Grace. She does all he can to help Hawke.

Marethari sacrificed herself to save Merrill. She was horribly misguided, but she still acted out of love.

Oh, and there's Hawke's dad Malcolm.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 30 mai 2013 - 04:32 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Exile wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Blood magic and torture aren't the same thing.

No, but mind control is a subset (some might say the essence) of blood magic, and the justification offered for the moral basis of mind control is the same as that offered for torture. The only distinguishing ground is that we can't be sure that torture will work, though as we see with Hawke at the Pearl, a sufficiently strong mage can get around that anyway.

Some might have a difficult time selling me that one. The original blood magic was merely a way to power spells that could otherwise have been cast normally; mind control only came later, and is really only the tip of the iceberg with regards to what blood magic is capable of. And why should someone who knows they need that power to, say, trade their own life for that of an entire fleet of dreadnoughts have to justify mind control to justify doing so?

As for mind control, it can sometimes be useful. If you want to take an armed criminal alive, its easier to do that with mind control than by disarming him or blasting him with an attack spell and hoping he lives. (A stunning spell might also work, as long as he's not standing on a hard surface when he hits the ground.)

The issue, though, is the violation of personal integrity and autonomy. It's, again, the difference between saying violence is immoral but justified in the circumstances and saying that violence is moral if justified by the circumstances. 

I'm not trying to take sides on this point - I just think it's an important distinction to bear in mind. I'm totally a consequentialist; but I understand where people would come from in calling blood magic evil.

You can argue that it's evil but justifiable, or good if justified. I suppose it comes to the same thing; either way it can be worse not to do so.

Okay, I think I see your point, but my moral leanings are towards the common good more than anything else. Mind controlling someone to steal from them or get your ship docked for free? Bad. Mind controlling a kobold so that he releases his hostage and leaves without further incident, or a criminal so that he surrenders to the proper authorities and I don't have to hurt him or risk being hurt? Cool.

Here's the thing with the 'common good' POV - you need to have a strong basis in empiricism to make it work. Mind controlling a kobold is only good if we can be sure that the exercise of mind control can be properly regulated and exercised. Which leads right into the discussion of Circles, and the moral quandry of how to regulate a person who can replicate the power of a tank division with his or her mind. 

I agree that its best such power be regulated, but if you know how to use it, there's nobody stopping you, and someone might be seconds away from death if you stay your hand, why shouldn't you force a hostage taker to stand down?

[Mr.House]

Face of Evil wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Name me five decent mages in DA2.

Merrill, Marethari, Alain, Feynriel, Emile de Launcet (he's a bit of an idiot but he's not hurting anybody) and Bethany.

EDIT: Damn, I forgot about Ella.

Marethari and Merrill? :lol:You don't remember that long quest line do you?

Also Alain? No way. He's a criminal.

All you have is three mages, one of which can be dead at the start of the game. So we have a grand total of two decent mages that are not crazy, psychopaths or cause actions that result in many dead people because they thought they where doing the right thing and then don't even try to make up for it.

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 mai 2013 - 04:33 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Face of Evil wrote...

Alain was coerced by Grace — an actual villain — and does all he can to help Hawke.

Marethari sacrificed herself to save Merrill. She was dumb, but she was a good person.

Oh, and there's Hawke's dad Malcolm.

It's always amused me that even after learning Malcolm knew blood magic in Legacy, not even Fenris has anything bad to say about him.  I suspect his kind words made my Hawke feel like the apocalypse was upon them...