225 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It's always amused me that even after learning Malcolm knew blood magic in Legacy, not even Fenris has anything bad to say about him.  I suspect his kind words made my Hawke feel like the apocalypse was upon them...

One dungeon crawl later, it became apparent this was true.

[Mr.House]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Bethany, Ella, Terrie, Feynriel, and Solitivus.

We know nothing of Terrie at all, using her is like using a npc called mage. She was simply a npc named for a quest but we know nothing about her. So you have four.

[Plaintiff]

IanPolaris wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think "all" or even most of the mages in DA2 are "psychopaths".

Although given the crap they have to put up with, they probably should be.

Name me five decent mages in DA2.

That's not the same question at all. Psychopathy is a serious, real mental condition. Simply being "indecent", or even being a murderer, doesn't qualify someone as a psychopath.

Any list I provide will be purely subjective, and frankly I don't trust you to just disregard it with a "lolnope".

Now you are quibbling.  Sure psuchopathy is a serious and real mental condition, but the word has a large context and that context was clearly understood in that thread up to this point.  At this point I think you are being obdurate because you don't want to aknowlege the point.

The point is that in DA2, you had Hawke (either the PC or Bethany), Merrill, and the Mage Girl (I forget her name) that is about to be victimized by Alrik.  At that point you've pretty much exhausted your list of mages that were also decent human beings (and no I don't include Anders...someone that would massacre a cathedral full of people to make a political point is not a decent person IMO).

This makes for an extremely skews and unfair protrayal of mages presented to the players and iirc, the Devs admitted this some time ago (for DA2).

-Polaris

IanPolaris lecturing others about 'quibbling'? I think that might be a sign of the apocalypse.

What is IYO isn't really relevant, is it? My list of decent mages doesn't have to coincide with yours, and Anders is certainly on it.

Further, I refuse to believe that he "massacred" anyone. The cutscene clearly shows that the Chantry is virtually empty. Besides, I firmly believe that Elthina deserved what she got, if not worse.

Since you asked; Plaintiff's Subjective (And Not Exhaustive) List Of "Decent" (Meaning They Comply With Plaintiff's Personal Moral Standards, Or At Least Don't Actively Go Against Them) Mages In DA2 Includes:

- Anders
- Merrill
- Bethany
- Marethari
- Feynriel
- Olivia
- Evelina
- Alain
- Emile de Launcet
- Ella
- Karl
- Mistress Selby

There are other mages that I chose not to include, either because I haven't decided where they stand in regard to my own moral compass, or because I feel there isn't sufficient information for me to determine either way.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 mai 2013 - 04:39 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It kind of boggles my mind that people are actually arguing that torture and murder are morally grey.

What I'm arguing is that limitedly good ends can justify limitedly bad means. Torture and murder like the sort Avernus did? Pretty bad. Keeping a whole bunch of demons that could otherwise get as far as Kirkwall safely contained in a castle out in the middle of nowhere? Pretty cool.

 

Combating evil with evil doesn't make the second evil less evil.  It just means everyone involved is an evil bastard.  Maybe we should say the demons were morally grey because they were keeping an evil blood mage occupied and too busy to go looking for prey outside his tower!

[Mr.House]

So terrorist are decent people now? I love you bsn.

[Mr.House]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It kind of boggles my mind that people are actually arguing that torture and murder are morally grey.

What I'm arguing is that limitedly good ends can justify limitedly bad means. Torture and murder like the sort Avernus did? Pretty bad. Keeping a whole bunch of demons that could otherwise get as far as Kirkwall safely contained in a castle out in the middle of nowhere? Pretty cool.

 

Combating evil with evil doesn't make the second evil less evil.  It just means everyone involved is an evil bastard.  Maybe we should say the demons were morally grey because they were keeping an evil blood mage occupied and too busy to go looking for prey outside his tower!

No need, my Warden supplies the prey to help the Wardens.

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 mai 2013 - 04:39 .

[Nole]

Seriously, the ONLY "decent" mage that comes to my mind is Bethany.

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

So terrorist are decent people now? I love you bsn.

I don't agree that Anders is a "terrorist", either, and even if I did, being a "terrorist" doesn't automatically make someone wrong. There is such a thing as genuinely oppressive regimes that need to be fought against, and in my estimation, the Chantry happens to be one.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 mai 2013 - 04:41 .

[wolfhowwl]

Plaintiff wrote...
IanPolaris lecturing others about 'quibbling'? I think that might be a sign of the apocalypse.

What is IYO isn't really relevant, is it? My list of decent mages doesn't have to coincide with yours, and Anders is certainly on it.

Further, I refuse to believe that he "massacred" anyone. The cutscene clearly shows that the Chantry is virtually empty. Besides, I firmly believe that Elthina deserved what she got, if not worse.

Since you asked; Plaintiff's Subjective (And Not Exhaustive) List Of "Decent" (Meaning They Comply With Plaintiff's Personal Moral Standards, Or At Least Don't Actively Go Against Them) Mages In DA2 Includes:

- Anders
- Merrill
- Bethany
- Marethari
- Feynriel
- Olivia
- Evelina
- Alain
- Emile de Launcet
- Ella
- Karl
- Mistress Selby

There are other mages that I chose not to include, either because I haven't decided where they stand in regard to my own moral compass, or because I feel there isn't sufficient information for me to determine either way.

Anders is an insane terrorist.

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

So terrorist are decent people now? I love you bsn.

I
don't agree that Anders is a "terrorist", either, and even if I did,
being a "terrorist" doesn't make someone wrong. There is such a thing as
genuinely oppressive regimes that need to be fought against, and in my
estimation, the Chantry happens to be one.

Timothy McVeigh thought he was fighting a genuinely oppressive regime too.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 30 mai 2013 - 04:43 .

[Face of Evil]

All right, then, name me five decent NPC mages from DAO. And by "decent," I mean, "were not involved in any mass murder or criminal enterprise, unwittingly or not."

Modifié par Face of Evil, 30 mai 2013 - 04:44 .

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

So terrorist are decent people now? I love you bsn.

I don't agree that Anders is a "terrorist", either, and even if I did, being a "terrorist" doesn't automatically make someone wrong. There is such a thing as genuinely oppressive regimes that need to be fought against, and in my estimation, the Chantry happens to be one.

He blew up a public building filled with innocent people, children like Seb when he was a boy and other people not part of the conflict so he could cause terror. That is an act of terrorism.

[Plaintiff]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Anders is an insane terrorist.

Subjective.

If he is truly insane, then he can't reasonably be held responsible for his actions. The morality of any individual terrorist act hinges on the victim and the reasoning behind the attack.

[Harle Cerulean]

Mr.House wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Bethany, Ella, Terrie, Feynriel, and Solitivus.

We know nothing of Terrie at all, using her is like using a npc called mage. She was simply a npc named for a quest but we know nothing about her. So you have four.

We know that unlike Grace, she managed not to come to the attention of the Templars, which implies she's doing a lot better job of laying low - and therefore most likely being more responsible in the use of her powers, etc.  She also doesn't join Grace in accusing you of murdering Decimus.  What she doesn't do can be as important an indicator as what she does do.  Yes, she's a minor character, but the only possible thing we have against her is that she didn't directly oppose Decimus.  Which most likely would have been suicidal, so I don't especially blame her.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It kind of boggles my mind that people are actually arguing that torture and murder are morally grey.

What I'm arguing is that limitedly good ends can justify limitedly bad means. Torture and murder like the sort Avernus did? Pretty bad. Keeping a whole bunch of demons that could otherwise get as far as Kirkwall safely contained in a castle out in the middle of nowhere? Pretty cool.

 

Combating evil with evil doesn't make the second evil less evil.  It just means everyone involved is an evil bastard.  Maybe we should say the demons were morally grey because they were keeping an evil blood mage occupied and too busy to go looking for prey outside his tower!

The demons are evil. They are literally inhuman beings of pure malice. On the other hand, you may have a point about their service to humanity by keeping Avernus occupied. He might well have done more harm had he not been otherwise occupied. His cited motivation was to keep the demons occupied, so we can't be sure, but who's to say if he's telling the truth? (If you don't believe that evil people can do good work for evil reasons, you are not prepared to hear about some of my Wardens. Wicked bastards or not, they did save their world.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 04:49 .

[Mr.House]

Face of Evil wrote...

All right, then, name me five decent NPC mages from DAO. And by "decent," I mean, "were not involved in any mass murder or criminal enterprise, unwittingly or not."

Wynn
Irving
Torrin
Sweeney
Petra

If I can't include Irving. Then Niall.

[Plaintiff]

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

So terrorist are decent people now? I love you bsn.

I don't agree that Anders is a "terrorist", either, and even if I did, being a "terrorist" doesn't automatically make someone wrong. There is such a thing as genuinely oppressive regimes that need to be fought against, and in my estimation, the Chantry happens to be one.

He blew up a public building filled with innocent people, children like Seb when he was a boy and other people not part of the conflict so he could cause terror. That is an act of terrorism.

False. At the time of the explosion, the Chantry is shown to contain Elthina, two Templars, and no one else.

The Chantry in Kirkwall does not board orphans. The orphans live in Darktown.

Call Anders whatever you want, I'm not so weak minded that the careless tossing about of political buzzwords will cause me to disregard the conclusions I reached from my own persoanl critical analysis. I formed my opinion of Anders over a year ago, and it's not changed since. I should tell you now that if you're hoping your arguments will change my mind, you're wasting your time.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 mai 2013 - 04:49 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Face of Evil wrote...

All right, then, name me five decent NPC mages from DAO. And by "decent," I mean, "were not involved in any mass murder or criminal enterprise, unwittingly or not."

You're kidding, right?  Wynne, Finn, Keili, Petra, Niall, Eadric, Merrill, Marethari, Elora, Aneirin, Leorah, Torrin, Sweeney.  Oh, and Kinnon.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 30 mai 2013 - 04:49 .

[NoForgiveness]

anders is one of the only people, in either games, that completely knows what he did was wrong and wants to make up for it. imo that makes him a better person then probably every murderer we've seen.

[Mr.House]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

So terrorist are decent people now? I love you bsn.

I don't agree that Anders is a "terrorist", either, and even if I did, being a "terrorist" doesn't automatically make someone wrong. There is such a thing as genuinely oppressive regimes that need to be fought against, and in my estimation, the Chantry happens to be one.

He blew up a public building filled with innocent people, children like Seb when he was a boy and other people not part of the conflict so he could cause terror. That is an act of terrorism.

False. At the time of the explosion, the Chantry is shown to contain Elthina, two Templars, and no one else.

The Chantry in Kirkwall does not board orphans. The orphans live in Darktown.

Call Anders whatever you want, I'm not so weak minded that the carless tossing about of political buzzwords will stop me from ciritically analysing situations to reach my own conclusions. I formed my opinion of Anders over a year ago, and it's not changed since. I should tell you now that if you're hoping your arguments will change my mind, you're wasting your time.

False. You only see the main hall. You do not see all the bed rooms. The orphans in darktown are from Fereldan, not Kirkwall. Seb proves the Chantry takes in children who do duties, along with all the other priest and such. Do i need to show you how big the chantry is? You can support a terroist all you want, but don't scoff at people who disagree with you and call Anders what he is.

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 mai 2013 - 04:51 .

[Nole]

MR_PN wrote...

anders is one of the only people, in either games, that completely knows what he did was wrong and wants to make up for it. imo that makes him a better person then probably every murderer we've seen.

But he screwed every single mage by doing what he did. 
Seriously, in my DA3 playthrough, if I have the chance, the mages are already doomed.

[Mr.House]

Filament wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

So terrorist are decent people now? I love you bsn.

Says the one who offhandedly dismissed the 'criminal' Alain not long after defending Avernus... indeed. :innocent:

I never said Avernus was a decent person

[Face of Evil]

Mr.House wrote...

Torrin
Sweeney
Petra

So the three minor NPCs who you know virtually nothing about count, but Ella, Solivitus and Terrie do not?

Harle Cerulean wrote...

You're kidding, right?  Wynne, Finn, Keili, Petra, Niall, Eadric, Merrill, Marethari, Elora, Aneirin, Leorah, Torrin, Sweeney.  Oh, and Kinnon.

Outside of Niall, Wynne and Finn, you just rattled off the names of a collection of minor NPCs that you barely have any interaction with even within the origins they appear. Is "totally insignificant" really the same as "decent"?

I'll give you Wynne, Niall, Finn, Lanaya and Irving. Though Irving's all too eager to throw Jowan under the bus and Finn's a bit of a cheat, since he's in a DLC released well after DAO. Perhaps if DA2 got an expansion, my list of good mages might be longer.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 30 mai 2013 - 05:02 .

[Plaintiff]

wolfhowwl wrote...
Timothy McVeigh thought he was fighting a genuinely oppressive regime too.

So what? What Anders or McVeigh thought about their own actions is utterly irrelevent to what I think about their actions. It is possible for me to support the actions of one "terrorist" and not another. Or for me to classify McVeigh as a terrorist while denying that Anders qualifies.

Morality is purely subjective. You don't have to agree with what I think, but you have no objective moral standard by which to argue against it.

[NoForgiveness]

WittingEight65 wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

anders is one of the only people, in either games, that completely knows what he did was wrong and wants to make up for it. imo that makes him a better person then probably every murderer we've seen.

But he screwed every single mage by doing what he did. 
Seriously, in my DA3 playthrough, if I have the chance, the mages are already doomed.

maybe he did screw them over but it was necessary and he is willing to help defend them and die doing so