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[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

IanPolaris wrote...



I hear that.  Whatever my personal thoughts are, when I played DA2 part of me was wondering by the end of Act 2, "Hey I'm rich, but my entire family is dead.  Why am I staying in this Maker-forsaken city again?"


-Polaris

DAII is one of the few games I have played that could have made a "Refuse" style ending work.


The very first Hawke I ran through DAII was a Rogue and with Bethany a warden and momma Hawke dead I had zero motivation to pick a side.

CheesecakeHawke: I think I'm done with Kirkwall LI let us depart! *leaves*

Varric: And Hawke took his/her massive fortune and along with LI disappeared, the end.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 30 mai 2013 - 06:12 .

[NoForgiveness]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

your thinking as though the battle started solely because of her, it didn't, they were standing there voting for freedom, the Templars wouldn't have let it happen and Fiona wouldn't have backed down, unless the vote failed which was highly unlikely. the framing part was just an added push

That doesn't help your case. If the fight was going to happen anyway the extra push wasn't needed.

then it has absolutely no effect and so no harm is done(from the framing itself) aside from the friendship betrayal. which like I said can be made better with an genuine apology.

It doesn't bug you that she made everyone think her friend is a murderer? That she killed a man who was about to be voted free of Templar control, according to you? And you think that a betrayal that huge (I am given to understand that Lambert tried to arrest him, I cannot see that ending in anything but death) can be mended with an apology?

he was going to be made tranquil before the vote happened as a warning, so no there wouldn't have been freedom for him, it was a mercy that she killed him. if the vote passed there would have been fighting, if it failed lambert would try to arrest rhys and the mages would defend him and there would have been fighting. framing him was just a precaution. And it is a betrayal of their friendship and maybe she does deserve a little hate from rhys, but were it me, I could've forgiven her.

Modifié par MR_PN, 30 mai 2013 - 06:16 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MR_PN wrote...
if the vote passed there would have been fighting, if it failed lambert would try to arrest rhys and the mages would defend him and there would have been fighting. framing him was just a precaution. And it is a betrayal of their friendship and maybe she does deserve a little hate from rhys, but were it me, I could've forgiven her.

I am given to understand that Lambert tried to arrest Rhys because of the framing. From this it follows that Rhys would have been less screwed in the event of a failed vote to separate except that Adrian framed him. I am further given to understand that you think that this was justified because it ensured there would be fighting that you thought was already inevitable. (The only way the framejob can concievably be justified is if it was necessary to cause the war, and even then it's a tough sell.) I am further given to understand that you don't think having everyone think Rhys is a murderer is going to effect his life afterwards should the mages win. You would forgive a friend who betrayed you this far, for an apology?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 06:29 .

[kinderschlager]

*deleted*

Modifié par kinderschlager, 30 mai 2013 - 07:16 .

[Mr.House]

kinderschlager wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

It got so bad that by the endgame my first thought wasn't "Yeah Mage freedom!" Or "We've got to stop those crazy mages" But "Screw you guys I'm going home"

I hear that.  Whatever my personal thoughts are, when I played DA2 part of me was wondering by the end of Act 2, "Hey I'm rich, but my entire family is dead.  Why am I staying in this Maker-forsaken city again?"


-Polaris

i believe it is already been established that hawke is an idiot

Hey, my Hawke was not an idiot or had her whole familly dead. She was just a lazy ass mage who didn't care to help that much unless she got rewarded and rather have drinks with Varic, troll Aveline and have fun with Isabela. It all comes down to how you rp her/him. If you try to rp him/her as a classic hero, then ya Hawke is dumber then a bag of bricks. Roleplay her as the lazy ass hero who just wants booze, boobs and money, it works fine.

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 mai 2013 - 06:46 .

[NoForgiveness]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MR_PN wrote...
if the vote passed there would have been fighting, if it failed lambert would try to arrest rhys and the mages would defend him and there would have been fighting. framing him was just a precaution. And it is a betrayal of their friendship and maybe she does deserve a little hate from rhys, but were it me, I could've forgiven her.

I am given to understand that Lambert tried to arrest Rhys because of the framing. From this it follows that Rhys would have been less screwed in the event of a failed vote to separate except that Adrian framed him. I am further given to understand that you think that this was justified because it ensured there would be fighting that you thought was already inevitable. (The only way the framejob can concievably be justified is if it was necessary to cause the war, and even then it's a tough sell.) I am further given to understand that you don't think having everyone think Rhys is a murderer is going to effect his life afterwards should the mages win. You would forgive a friend who betrayed you this far, for an apology?

ugh.. whatever, yes with an explanation to the mages(I think the libertarians already knew) and a good apology I would forgive her.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MR_PN wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MR_PN wrote...
if the vote passed there would have been fighting, if it failed lambert would try to arrest rhys and the mages would defend him and there would have been fighting. framing him was just a precaution. And it is a betrayal of their friendship and maybe she does deserve a little hate from rhys, but were it me, I could've forgiven her.

I am given to understand that Lambert tried to arrest Rhys because of the framing. From this it follows that Rhys would have been less screwed in the event of a failed vote to separate except that Adrian framed him. I am further given to understand that you think that this was justified because it ensured there would be fighting that you thought was already inevitable. (The only way the framejob can concievably be justified is if it was necessary to cause the war, and even then it's a tough sell.) I am further given to understand that you don't think having everyone think Rhys is a murderer is going to effect his life afterwards should the mages win. You would forgive a friend who betrayed you this far, for an apology?

ugh.. whatever, yes with an explanation to the mages(I think the libertarians already knew) and a good apology I would forgive her.

You are one person in a hundred: I am given to understand that this put Rhys's life in danger, and led to his current girlfriend dying until Wynne gave up the spirit that was undoing her death to undo Evangeline's. I would be working with Adrian insofar as her actions left me with no other choice. (Unless I already had none, in which case they were pointless since that was the point.) As for forgiving her, that would never happen.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 07:04 .

[Mr.House]

I'm happy he does not forgive her, disappointing he buckeled under pressure though. Shame both him and Wynn fell for a libertarians ploy.

[Dave of Canada]

kinderschlager wrote...

i believe it is already been established that hawke is an idiot

One of the main reasons I side with Petrice--aside from seeing the Qunari as a threat that needs to be dealt with--is the fact that it makes Act 2 appear in a much darker light, you're provoking the Qunari and defending those who conspire against everyone. Viscount's sad and thinks I'm not involved. HA!

Then I stop the Qunari, save the city and become Champion in one fell swoop.

Then I become Viscount. *shades* It's good to be king.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 mai 2013 - 07:11 .

[NoForgiveness]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You are one person in a hundred: I am given to understand that this put Rhys's life in danger, and led to his current girlfriend dying until Wynne gave up the spirit that was undoing her death to undo Evangeline's. I would be working with Adrian insofar as her actions left me with no other choice. (Unless I already had none, in which case they were pointless since that was the point.) As for forgiving her, that would never happen.

but it didn't put his life or any one else's in danger any more then the vote passing did(which Rhys wanted). it was a back up plan in case the vote failed and I think lambert walked in earlier then Adrian anticipated.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MR_PN wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You are one person in a hundred: I am given to understand that this put Rhys's life in danger, and led to his current girlfriend dying until Wynne gave up the spirit that was undoing her death to undo Evangeline's. I would be working with Adrian insofar as her actions left me with no other choice. (Unless I already had none, in which case they were pointless since that was the point.) As for forgiving her, that would never happen.

but it didn't put his life or any one else's in danger any more then the vote passing did(which Rhys wanted). it was a back up plan in case the vote failed and I think lambert walked in earlier then Adrian anticipated.

Rhys is in much more danger now: Adrian just made him a special target.

Whether or not she anticipated this, I'd still be ticked off. And while I can understand the backup plan, I still think Rhys would be justified in not being happy that he was this plan. At any rate, you said that the fighting was inevitable. The main reason I got involved was to say that if this is true, a backup plan isn't necessary. I'd argue that the fight wasn't necessarily inevitable, and backing out of the Chantry just when a reasonable Divine comes along before giving her a chance isn't necessarily a good idea, but this is not central to my original point. Either the backup plan was potentially necessary but still a ruthless move, or it was unnecessary, ruthless, and seriously screwed up.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 07:22 .

[Naitaka]

Had they allowed us to do something similar to the Lone Wolf ending from VTMB wherein your MC just give everyone the finger and walk off into the night for DA2's ending, my opinion of the game would have been much higher.

[NoForgiveness]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rhys is in much more danger now: Adrian just made him a special target.

Whether or not she anticipated this, I'd still be ticked off. And while I can understand the backup plan, I still think Rhys would be justified in not being happy that he was this plan. At any rate, you said that the fighting was inevitable. The main reason I got involved was to say that if this is true, a backup plan isn't necessary. I'd argue that the fight wasn't necessarily inevitable, and backing out of the Chantry just when a reasonable Divine comes along before giving her a chance isn't necessarily a good idea, but this is not central to my original point. Either the backup plan was potentially necessary but still a ruthless move, or it was unnecessary, ruthless, and seriously screwed up.

I think she just feared that it would be needed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MR_PN wrote...

I think she just feared that it would be needed.

I think if I were Rhys, I would be fearing certain other things right about now.

[Twisted Path]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I remember either David Gaider or Marc Laidlaw saying that they deliberately made the mages in DA2 over the top in terms of blood magic usage so that the players wouldn't always side against the Templars.

Which should have told either/both of them that what they thought was a morally grey issue actually wasn't.

-Polaris

A better solution might have been to make none of the Templars you meet moustache-twirlingly-evil. Their basic job is pretty messed up: they enslave, imprison and sometimes lobotomize mages. They could have softened that a little by just never having you meet an overzealous Templar, and having all the ones you encounter be solemn and deliberate about their job.

But yeah, they've never really been able to sell the mage/templar dynamic as being morally grey. It's a lot like The Legion from Fallout: New Vegas. Obsidian put a lot of effort into justifying the Legion's existence, especially when you meet their leader Caesar, and they obviously wanted choosing between the NCR, the Legion and House to be something people think long and hard about. And of course you see people on the internet writing long elaborate essays about how in the long run The Legion winning would be better for post-apocalyptic society or whatever, but at the end of the day siding with the Legion still feels like the evil choice. And if you play an evil female character it's just an insane choice.

Siding with the Templars and genociding all the mages in Kirkwall felt the same way, like you were choosing the evil ending. And of course if you play a mage it feels insane. Of course, I did a playthrough of DA2 as an evil insane bloodmage, so siding with the templars there worked out fine. I like to think that my evil bloodmage Hawke was just trying to wipe out all competition.

Modifié par Twisted Path, 30 mai 2013 - 07:57 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Ugh, this is why I really hope there are many different endings in DAI; it seems both the mages and templars are filled with retarded lunatics with only a sporadic bunch who seem sane and reasonable and that lot get killed by the other idiots.

Or hopefully Bioware stops thinking we always need "hack-hack-hack" fighting hence the loonies everywhere.

[Nightdragon8]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ugh, this is why I really hope there are many different endings in DAI; it seems both the mages and templars are filled with retarded lunatics with only a sporadic bunch who seem sane and reasonable and that lot get killed by the other idiots.

Or hopefully Bioware stops thinking we always need "hack-hack-hack" fighting hence the loonies everywhere.

Inreality its more than likly the opiste considering thats what it's like in Real life, There is a reason the term "Extremeist" became a household word. I mean it went from kids doing "Extreme" sports to GOP, DEM being Extremeist in there veiws.

[KiwiQuiche]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ugh, this is why I really hope there are many different endings in DAI; it seems both the mages and templars are filled with retarded lunatics with only a sporadic bunch who seem sane and reasonable and that lot get killed by the other idiots.

Or hopefully Bioware stops thinking we always need "hack-hack-hack" fighting hence the loonies everywhere.

Inreality its more than likly the opiste considering thats what it's like in Real life, There is a reason the term "Extremeist" became a household word. I mean it went from kids doing "Extreme" sports to GOP, DEM being Extremeist in there veiws.

That word got overused to the point it's real meaning is lost and it's used for small, stupid things now.

And no, everyone just doesn't go crazy like that when something happens. Some do, but not everyone.

[Bleachrude]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It kind of boggles my mind that people are actually arguing that torture and murder are morally grey.

Honestly I'm not.

Apparently, as long as you are not doing something morally bankrupt for yourself personally but for OTHERS, this makes it mature and justified in a lot of people's minds.

[Catroi]

I hope not

edit: I also hope that we can get a walk away (the bard's tale)/ Yes Man (Fallout: New Vegas) / kill them all (jedi academy) kind of ending, I hate both mages and templars

Modifié par Catroi, 30 mai 2013 - 01:09 .

[Urazz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

It got so bad that by the endgame my first thought wasn't "Yeah Mage freedom!" Or "We've got to stop those crazy mages" But "Screw you guys I'm going home"

I hear that.  Whatever my personal thoughts are, when I played DA2 part of me was wondering by the end of Act 2, "Hey I'm rich, but my entire family is dead.  Why am I staying in this Maker-forsaken city again?"


-Polaris

Maybe because Hawke's friends live there and he/she doesn't want to leave them? /shrug

[MissOuJ]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MR_PN wrote...
if the vote passed there would have been fighting, if it failed lambert would try to arrest rhys and the mages would defend him and there would have been fighting. framing him was just a precaution. And it is a betrayal of their friendship and maybe she does deserve a little hate from rhys, but were it me, I could've forgiven her.

I am given to understand that Lambert tried to arrest Rhys because of the framing. From this it follows that Rhys would have been less screwed in the event of a failed vote to separate except that Adrian framed him. I am further given to understand that you think that this was justified because it ensured there would be fighting that you thought was already inevitable. (The only way the framejob can concievably be justified is if it was necessary to cause the war, and even then it's a tough sell.) I am further given to understand that you don't think having everyone think Rhys is a murderer is going to effect his life afterwards should the mages win. You would forgive a friend who betrayed you this far, for an apology?

Lambert & the Templars seemed to be after Rhys from the beginning because of the murders in the White Spire, so even if Adrian hadn't fraimed him it is possible they would've come after him sooner or later. They probably wouldn't have been stupid enough to try aprehend him when Wynne was still in the Spire since they had no proper evidence. So, Adrian gives them evidence, and Lambert makes his move sooner rather than later and tries to imprison Rhys, Wynne freaks out and joins the fight / forces the vote...

I wouldn't forgive her, but I do understand her motivations -- and if I remember correctly, Rhys also says so as well in the last (?) chapter of Asunder. But he also thinks about throwing her from the battlement, and I really can't blame him.

[garrusfan1]

I think most will be more tempered in DA3 but also the blood magic thing was switched from DAO to DA2. blood magic makes it easier for demons to come and is hated and feared because it can be used for mind control. in DA2 you have to learn from demons pretty much. also in DA2 if you played legacy it had something about kirkwall being strange because of something. also the mages were treated much worse then DAO so they were more of the mind set of if I am gonna die I am gonna take templars with me. as for them using blood magic since they have no lyirum they only need lyrium to keep it going for a while according to the codex

[IanPolaris]

Urazz wrote...

Maybe because Hawke's friends live there and he/she doesn't want to leave them? /shrug

The problem is I don't see that being universally true for all Hawkes.

-Polaris