225 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is I don't see that being universally true for all Hawkes.

-Polaris

Well... you couldn't possibly come up with reasons for -all- Hawkes to stay, now could you? Unless you go out of your way to tie Hawke's continued existance metaphysically to that city. Much like it's perfectly possible to come up with a warden that'd run away from Ferelden at first opportunity.

So you'd have to settle for most Hawkes. I'd say that: it's home, I got friends here, I got family here and/or people need me here, should cover many archetypes.
Now the game could've done a great deal more to explain why moving to another city wouldn't be trivial, even for the richer Hawke. That and make Kirkwall seem a bit more cozy (though I wouldn't be surprised if we only see the absolutely worst weeks of those ten years).

But is there anything else they really could've done besides that?

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is I don't see that being universally true for all Hawkes.

-Polaris

Well... you couldn't possibly come up with reasons for -all- Hawkes to stay, now could you? Unless you go out of your way to tie Hawke's continued existance metaphysically to that city. Much like it's perfectly possible to come up with a warden that'd run away from Ferelden at first opportunity.

So you'd have to settle for most Hawkes. I'd say that: it's home, I got friends here, I got family here and/or people need me here, should cover many archetypes.
Now the game could've done a great deal more to explain why moving to another city wouldn't be trivial, even for the richer Hawke. That and make Kirkwall seem a bit more cozy (though I wouldn't be surprised if we only see the absolutely worst weeks of those ten years).

But is there anything else they really could've done besides that?

I think the big thing that could (and IMO should) have been done is to make Kirkwall more appealing.  Give Hawke (i.e. the player) a reason to stay.  If there was a real sense of investment in Kirkwall other than "which group of bloodthirsty lunatics do I want to back today", it might have made the restriction a lot less noticable/glaring.

-Polaris

[Catroi]

I've been saying it for ages, Hawke should have had the option to proclaim himself/herself Viscount and order Aveline to arrest both mages and templars at the end.
That option should have only been available if you've done enough sidequests to insure the support of all Kirkwall (from the allienage to the nobles).

With Varric and Aveline on his/her side Hawke already has a huge advantage, looking at the other quests it's easy to get the approval of most noble houses (helping the french nobles with their kid, save the arhiman from the desire demon, etc...)

I see no reason why this shouldnt be an option (except the very convenient "no one can be viscount without the support of the templars, well guess what I got everyone in kirkwall licking my feet for all the stuff I did for them do yes I dont need the templar).

[Lulupab]

Catroi wrote...

I've been saying it for ages, Hawke should have had the option to proclaim himself/herself Viscount and order Aveline to arrest both mages and templars at the end.
That option should have only been available if you've done enough sidequests to insure the support of all Kirkwall (from the allienage to the nobles).

With Varric and Aveline on his/her side Hawke already has a huge advantage, looking at the other quests it's easy to get the approval of most noble houses (helping the french nobles with their kid, save the arhiman from the desire demon, etc...)

I see no reason why this shouldnt be an option (except the very convenient "no one can be viscount without the support of the templars, well guess what I got everyone in kirkwall licking my feet for all the stuff I did for them do yes I dont need the templar).

The irony here is the Amells  were the viscount of Kirkwall until they gave birth to a mage child they were stripped of title but remained nobles and the child was sent to Ferelden circle to avoid more scandal. This child can be the Warden in DAO you just need to play Human magi origin, male or female, you'll have Amell last name as well. Anyway after death of Dumar champion or no Hawke is the rightful viscount of Kirkwall cause of this event.

Modifié par Rassler, 30 mai 2013 - 05:45 .

[ScarMK]

Rassler wrote...

The irony here is the Amells, were the viscount of Kirkwall until they gave birth to a mage child they were stripped of title but remained nobles and the child was sent to Ferelden circle to avoid more scandal. This child can be the Warden in DAO you just need to play Human magi origin, male or female, you'll have Amell last name as well. Anyway after death of Dumar champion or no Hawke is the rightful viscount of Kirkwall cause of this event.

Even if they kept their noble title, (I don't know, I certainly didn't care enough about hawke to learn about his family), that does not mean Hawke is the "rightful" viscount.

[IanPolaris]

ScarMK wrote...

Rassler wrote...

The irony here is the Amells, were the viscount of Kirkwall until they gave birth to a mage child they were stripped of title but remained nobles and the child was sent to Ferelden circle to avoid more scandal. This child can be the Warden in DAO you just need to play Human magi origin, male or female, you'll have Amell last name as well. Anyway after death of Dumar champion or no Hawke is the rightful viscount of Kirkwall cause of this event.

Even if they kept their noble title, (I don't know, I certainly didn't care enough about hawke to learn about his family), that does not mean Hawke is the "rightful" viscount.

As an heir to the Amell House, Hawke is entited as a Kirkwall noble to put his name up as a Viscount candidate.  Given that he (or she) is also the Champion.....

-Polaris

[Catroi]

indeed Kirkwall is an elective Monarchy (very common in the HRE in real life) not an hereditary monarchy

Modifié par Catroi, 30 mai 2013 - 06:00 .

[ScarMK]

IanPolaris wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Rassler wrote...

The irony here is the Amells, were the viscount of Kirkwall until they gave birth to a mage child they were stripped of title but remained nobles and the child was sent to Ferelden circle to avoid more scandal. This child can be the Warden in DAO you just need to play Human magi origin, male or female, you'll have Amell last name as well. Anyway after death of Dumar champion or no Hawke is the rightful viscount of Kirkwall cause of this event.

Even if they kept their noble title, (I don't know, I certainly didn't care enough about hawke to learn about his family), that does not mean Hawke is the "rightful" viscount.

As an heir to the Amell House, Hawke is entited as a Kirkwall noble to put his name up as a Viscount candidate.  Given that he (or she) is also the Champion.....

-Polaris

My response is mainly pointed at the way she implies that Hawke is entitled to viscount, not that Hawke is unable to run.  I wouldn't think mage Hawke would even be given the option, but stranger things have happened in Kirkwall..

[IanPolaris]

ScarMK wrote...

My response is mainly pointed at the way she implies that Hawke is entitled to viscount, not that Hawke is unable to run.  I wouldn't think mage Hawke would even be given the option, but stranger things have happened in Kirkwall..

You're right about a mage Hawke not being eligible.  Technically in DA2 a Mage Hawke could become Viscount, but IIRC DG himself has said that that was a mistake (and a fairly serious one).

-Polaris

[Patchwork]

It feels like the talk Act 2 with Varric about what's next should have lead to Hawke become more involved in the city. Whether it was through business, politics or something else there needed to be a concrete reason for why Hawke, especially a mage Hawke, stayed.

[Ravensword]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

My inner bomb throwing revolutionary already supports the mages and their cause.

It would still be nice to have sane mages in DA:I.

I support the Qunari. Down w/ mages and templars.

Modifié par Ravensword, 30 mai 2013 - 09:37 .

[Seboist]

If they're all psychopaths again then it makes it that much easier for me to put them to the flame again for the third time. If not that BW would prolly do another attempt at whitewashing that'll backfire on me like with the Geth in ME3(things didn't go well for them in my playthrough suffice to say).

[Luiren]

If you ask me, our friendly neighborhood mages weren't psycho enough. Anders sure, he blew up the chantry and has a spirit of the Fade inside him, but he had a reason....albeit a rather poor one. Merrill, she had that whole demon thing and the cavorting in blood magic, but she also had a reason for it. How about next time around we actually see a mage who is actually insane? Blows stuff up because they felt like it? Kills people because they didn't like their shoes?

[Sutekh]

Rassler wrote...

The irony here is the Amells  were the viscount of Kirkwall until they gave birth to a mage child they were stripped of title but remained nobles and the child was sent to Ferelden circle to avoid more scandal. This child can be the Warden in DAO you just need to play Human magi origin, male or female, you'll have Amell last name as well. Anyway after death of Dumar champion or no Hawke is the rightful viscount of Kirkwall cause of this event.

Err... no, they weren't. Hawke's grandpa was once considered the best successor after the previous Viscount was arrested, but it never happened due to magic. At the start of DA2 and up until Hawke becomes Champion, the Amells are a fallen house, as remote from the throne as any average Kirkwaller. Maybe even more (again, magic). So Hawke is not particularly entitled to be Viscount, even if the title was hereditary, which doesn't seem to be the case anyway. Besides, technically, the Amell heir is Gamlen, not Hawke.

This being said, they missed a great political intrigue opportunity in Act III, IMHO. But a lot of things were missed and lost there, so...

As for Hawke's reason to stay, he's got a fortune there, a reputation, friends, lover(s) and even family. Mage or not, why would he want to start all over again in another place while there's no certainty it will be better there?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Ravensword wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

My inner bomb throwing revolutionary already supports the mages and their cause.

It would still be nice to have sane mages in DA:I.

I support the Qunari. Down w/ mages and templars.

Ugh kill it with fire.

Event the Templars look pristine next to the Qun.

[IanPolaris]

Sutekh wrote...

As for Hawke's reason to stay, he's got a fortune there, a reputation, friends, lover(s) and even family. Mage or not, why would he want to start all over again in another place while there's no certainty it will be better there?

Let's take a look at these:

Family?  The only family that Hawke has is his sister (if he's a mundane) or brother (if a mage), and his mother.  Frankly Gamlen doesn't much count for what should be obvious reasons.  By the start of Act 2, your sibling is either dead, or completely out of reach (no matter where you are) and by the end of Act 2 (possibly by the middle of it), your mother is dead.  So much for family.

Reputation?  During Act 2, Hawke doesn't have much of a reputation other than being an Amell by-blow and being one of the noveau-riche....and to hear it from Aveline (who would know being Capt of the Guard), this reputation is at least as negative as positive.

Lovers?  If Hawke has any lovers, they would surely stay by his (or her) side.  Possible lovers would be Merrill, Fenris, Anders, Isabella and that's it.  None of these save perhaps Anders is particularly tied to Kirkwall (and Isabella especially at the end of Act 2 would be eager and willing to pick up sticks and go if Hawke does).

Friends?  Again that varies a lot, but Varric makes it clear that he has no particular attachment to Kirkwall, Aveline openly considered going back to Fereldan and trying to reclaim her commission, and I've already covered the others under lovers.

Money?  Money in this sort of midaeval/rennaissance economy is very portable actually.  It would not be hard to ship/pack a fortune in just a few well guarded chests.

Honestly by the end of Act 2, there is very little that's keeping Hawke in Kirkwall.

-Polaris

[Plaintiff]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

My inner bomb throwing revolutionary already supports the mages and their cause.

It would still be nice to have sane mages in DA:I.

I support the Qunari. Down w/ mages and templars.

Ugh kill it with fire.

Event the Templars look pristine next to the Qun.

Hey, at least their brand of mind-rape is equal opportunity. :innocent:

[KiwiQuiche]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...


My inner bomb throwing revolutionary already supports the mages and their cause.

It would still be nice to have sane mages in DA:I.

I approve of this and am ready with the fireballs for DAI. Or fire grenades, whatever works.

Too many insane people on each side and just standing around, apparently insanity is contagious in the DA verse.

[kinderschlager]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...


My inner bomb throwing revolutionary already supports the mages and their cause.

It would still be nice to have sane mages in DA:I.

I approve of this and am ready with the fireballs for DAI. Or fire grenades, whatever works.

Too many insane people on each side and just standing around, apparently insanity is contagious in the DA verse.

going to be going around spreading the crazy if i can help it

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Hey, at least their brand of mind-rape is equal opportunity. :innocent:

Nope, mages still have it worse under the Qun.

[Dave of Canada]

Ravensword wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

My inner bomb throwing revolutionary already supports the mages and their cause.

It would still be nice to have sane mages in DA:I.

I support the Qunari. Down w/ mages and templars.

Woah woah, now. No need to limit our options. Qunari Templar can protect all of civilization.

[Archereon]

Given that Dragon Age's magic system seems to be taking more inspiration from Warhammer Fantasy/40k's (and whatever it was that they ripped from, not in the mood to look that up) magic system in recent years, I'm thinking we're going to see even more psycho-mages than usual.

[thats1evildude]

IanPolaris wrote...

Family?  The only family that Hawke has is his sister (if he's a mundane) or brother (if a mage), and his mother.  Frankly Gamlen doesn't much count for what should be obvious reasons.  By the start of Act 2, your sibling is either dead, or completely out of reach (no matter where you are) and by the end of Act 2 (possibly by the middle of it), your mother is dead.  So much for family.

That's still more family than Hawke has got back in Ferelden, which is none. As Lothering is completely gone, there's nothing waiting for them back there.

IanPolaris wrote...

Reputation?  During Act 2, Hawke doesn't have much of a reputation other than being an Amell by-blow and being one of the noveau-riche....and to hear it from Aveline (who would know being Capt of the Guard), this reputation is at least as negative as positive.

Right, that's why the Viscount personally asks Hawke to intervene in the qunari crisis. Because s/he is just a random by-blow and not an accomplished adventurer with a reputation for getting s**t done.

IanPolaris wrote...

Lovers?  If Hawke has any lovers, they would surely stay by his (or her) side.  Possible lovers would be Merrill, Fenris, Anders, Isabella and that's it.  None of these save perhaps Anders is particularly tied to Kirkwall (and Isabella especially at the end of Act 2 would be eager and willing to pick up sticks and go if Hawke does).

Isabela goes into hiding at the end of Act 2 and you have little contact with her. Fenris is waiting for Danarius, Merrill needs to stay near Sundermount to be in contact with her demon and Anders is waging his personal crusade on Kirkwall's Circle. None of them would readily leave Kirkwall without very good reason.

IanPolaris wrote...

Friends?  Again that varies a lot, but Varric makes it clear that he has no particular attachment to Kirkwall, Aveline openly considered going back to Fereldan and trying to reclaim her commission, and I've already covered the others under lovers.

Aveline is blatantly lying to see how you'd react and Varric is clearly quite comfortable where he is, given that he stays in Kirkwall after the climax. Or do you think the Seekers tracked him down in Antiva and dragged him back to the Free Marches to ask him a few questions?

IanPolaris wrote...

Money?  Money in this sort of midaeval/rennaissance economy is very portable actually.  It would not be hard to ship/pack a fortune in just a few well guarded chests.

But Hawke's estate is not portable, and nor is his title. He's already sunk a considerable amount of wealth into attaining both.

Was I the only one who noticed Hawke was the protagonist of a fantasy RPG? His life was going to be put through the ringer whether he stayed in Kirkwall, went back to Ferelden or f**ked off to Tevinter. (In fact, given his family's connection to Corypheus, the Carta would probably have chased him to the ends of Thedas.) At least Kirkwall provided him a network of allies and a nice house.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 31 mai 2013 - 02:19 .

[Sjpelke]

Sutekh wrote...

Rassler wrote...

The irony here is the Amells  were the viscount of Kirkwall until they gave birth to a mage child they were stripped of title but remained nobles and the child was sent to Ferelden circle to avoid more scandal. This child can be the Warden in DAO you just need to play Human magi origin, male or female, you'll have Amell last name as well. Anyway after death of Dumar champion or no Hawke is the rightful viscount of Kirkwall cause of this event.

Err... no, they weren't. Hawke's grandpa was once considered the best successor after the previous Viscount was arrested, but it never happened due to magic. At the start of DA2 and up until Hawke becomes Champion, the Amells are a fallen house, as remote from the throne as any average Kirkwaller. Maybe even more (again, magic). So Hawke is not particularly entitled to be Viscount, even if the title was hereditary, which doesn't seem to be the case anyway. Besides, technically, the Amell heir is Gamlen, not Hawke.

This being said, they missed a great political intrigue opportunity in Act III, IMHO. But a lot of things were missed and lost there, so...

As for Hawke's reason to stay, he's got a fortune there, a reputation, friends, lover(s) and even family. Mage or not, why would he want to start all over again in another place while there's no certainty it will be better there?

The darkspawn were the reason for the Hawke's to leave Ferelden in the first place as they lost their home. Hawke build a new life in a new town and ppl who have something to loose tend to stay put where they are, leave and look for something better when they don't. Perfectly natural human behaviour . And agree that an opportunity about the political intrigue was being missed in that storyline.

Back on topic though...
Mages are very powerfull beings with the gift given and the whole theme about how they are being able to handle that is challaging and difficult.

Agree that in DA2 a lot of storylines/quests were about mages running amok, loosing their minds. Maybe the balance was shifted to much in mages not being able to stay in control of their 'sanity'?

[Catroi]

If your mom died because of how a city is running you wont want to stay in said city, specially if it also killed your brother/sister (after all you're looking for money to get you/Bethany safe from the templars).

you can throw whatever arguments but alot of you IRL would just run away from this cursed city ASAP