137 réponses à ce sujet

[NuclearTech76]

Reizo Ryuu wrote...

Huntress and Fury synergise much better than the GI.

No.

GI is effectively a single CD and one streamlined DPS machine that uses each and every power every cloak cycle to destroy the enemy.

[Knockingbr4in]

Vanilla human adept rivals the GI in perfectness of design IMHO.

[NuclearTech76]

dysturbed0ne wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

lightswitch wrote...
Not really, they're just designed with some concept of balance.

Making a kit with a crap power that doesn't synergize isn't balance. You can balance overpowered kits, you can't balance kits with powers that just don't make sense together. WTF sense does it make to put carnage on a Kroguard? On the GI, not only do the powers compliment each other, there implementation in game is seemless. On other kits you have several CD dependent powers that interfer with each other.

Exactly what powers are you talking about? Sabotage? I feel like the number of crap powers in the game is relatively low and most of the kits have three powers that are worth speccing into.

Here's what actually doesn't make sense: putting two weapon buffing powers and a debuff all into one kit. Terrible idea. Also, putting three powers together whose cooldowns don't interfere with each other in a game balanced around the GCD? Terrible idea.

The most perfectly designed character in the game is probably the Turian Sentinel. The GI was poorly conceived.

Putting 3 powers together, that don't interfere with each other is a mistake.....what...really?? Wouldn't that be the definition of well designed?

You keep trying to say the kit is OP. If that is true, why, in a player base infamous for abusing anything that hints of OP or "easy mode", has this kit not been over-played?

I agree with your premise but also lightswitch. The GI is OP but it is because of the synergy of his powers, all kits should have a variety of powers but they all should synergize as well as the GI's. Then balancing could occur.

The reason it's not overplayed as much is because it has been passed by less skill intensive classes with similar DPS or just a crap ton more survivability.

[NuclearTech76]

Knockingbr4in wrote...

Vanilla human adept rivals the GI in perfectness of design IMHO.

Definitely better now with the changes in singularity. Shockwave is broken on PC though. I think the idea is sound and implementation also on console. On PC, I guess it's the thought that counts.

[DcIhNaGv3z]

lightswitch wrote...

DcIhNaGv3z wrote...

One of my favorite kits. GI has some of the best DPS in the game, but tends not to receive the OP hate that TGI or AIU get, probably due to low health/shields. It is an unforgiving kit if you don't know how to use it correctly.

There it is, you nailed it. The GI doesn't take any more skill to play than any other kit. It's just a matter of knowing how to use it.

In fact most of the kits in the game require more skill than the GI to actually perform well...

I don't inherently disagree with you. Really, all infiltrators have extremely good DPS if used correctly. It just takes a little understanding of how to break cloak early and to use powers from inside the cloak, once you get those two things, infiltrators are a breeze.

But really you could say the same thing about most kits. Some kits are definitely underwhelming, but most kits can perform very well once you understand the various power/weapon quarks, strengths, and weaknesses.

Skill? Blah. This game does not take skill... it takes knowledge.

[Knockingbr4in]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Knockingbr4in wrote...

Vanilla human adept rivals the GI in perfectness of design IMHO.

Definitely better now with the changes in singularity. Shockwave is broken on PC though. I think the idea is sound and implementation also on console. On PC, I guess it's the thought that counts.

I thought it was only the Radius evo which made Shockwave buggy on PC?

[Kushiel42]

dysturbed0ne wrote...

You keep trying to say the kit is OP. If that is true, why, in a player base infamous for abusing anything that hints of OP or "easy mode", has this kit not been over-played?

GI was absolutely the most common kit to see in lobbies for a while, to the point that it was quite rare to see a lobby that didn't include at least one of them.

The reason he's not overused now is because people got bored with playing him, not because of the mythical skill floor that he supposedly has.

[Kushiel42]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

GI is effectively a single CD...

Which is a sign of design failure. The point of GCD is to force interesting decisions during play, "forcing interesting decisions" always being better design than not forcing interesting decisions. Having a character who isn't forced into those decisions, and doesn't have any other design fillip to create some other set of decisions to make, is bad design on the level of interesting play. Having a character who essentially ignores the GCD mechanics without any kind of significant drawback to compensate for that lack is bad design on the level of kit balance.

I'd agree with your premise if the goal of the ME3 MP designers was to create the most streamlined and powerful kits they could, as they'd be doing if they were designers of physical products. But it's not, because they're not.

[NuclearTech76]

Kushiel42 wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

GI is effectively a single CD...

Which is a sign of design failure. The point of GCD is to force interesting decisions during play, "forcing interesting decisions" always being better design than not forcing interesting decisions. Having a character who isn't forced into those decisions, and doesn't have any other design fillip to create some other set of decisions to make, is bad design on the level of interesting play. Having a character who essentially ignores the GCD mechanics without any kind of significant drawback to compensate for that lack is bad design on the level of kit balance.

I'd agree with your premise if the goal of the ME3 MP designers was to create the most streamlined and powerful kits they could, as they'd be doing if they were designers of physical products. But it's not, because they're not.

I'm sorry that's BS. Tell me WTF interesting decision a Kroguard is making during gameplay? There are usually a few powers that are completely ignored because they either suck or just have no place on the kit itself. The GI is a fine design as is the Fury, Paladin, etc and then there are kits like the Saboteur who is just a damn mess.

Modifié par NuclearTech76, 30 mai 2013 - 05:19 .

[dysturbed0ne]

Kushiel42 wrote...

dysturbed0ne wrote...

You keep trying to say the kit is OP. If that is true, why, in a player base infamous for abusing anything that hints of OP or "easy mode", has this kit not been over-played?

GI was absolutely the most common kit to see in lobbies for a while, to the point that it was quite rare to see a lobby that didn't include at least one of them.

The reason he's not overused now is because people got bored with playing him, not because of the mythical skill floor that he supposedly has.

I have been around since the beginning and the GI has never dominated the lobbies. Believe me, there would have been threads about it. He has always been regarded as OP, but never has been over used, further backing up the conclusion he is well designed. Back in the day the the FQI and SI dominated the infiltrators, since geth were the easy choice and they best delt with them.

There has always been easier to use choices than the GI. The FQI and SI, for obvious reasons back then, the MQI because arch grenades and finally the AUI and Ghost because of DPS AND survivablity. So regardless of his great DPS, BW balanced him well with his health/shields.

[Tybo]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

dysturbed0ne wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

lightswitch wrote...
Not really, they're just designed with some concept of balance.

Making a kit with a crap power that doesn't synergize isn't balance. You can balance overpowered kits, you can't balance kits with powers that just don't make sense together. WTF sense does it make to put carnage on a Kroguard? On the GI, not only do the powers compliment each other, there implementation in game is seemless. On other kits you have several CD dependent powers that interfer with each other.

Exactly what powers are you talking about? Sabotage? I feel like the number of crap powers in the game is relatively low and most of the kits have three powers that are worth speccing into.

Here's what actually doesn't make sense: putting two weapon buffing powers and a debuff all into one kit. Terrible idea. Also, putting three powers together whose cooldowns don't interfere with each other in a game balanced around the GCD? Terrible idea.

The most perfectly designed character in the game is probably the Turian Sentinel. The GI was poorly conceived.

Putting 3 powers together, that don't interfere with each other is a mistake.....what...really?? Wouldn't that be the definition of well designed?

You keep trying to say the kit is OP. If that is true, why, in a player base infamous for abusing anything that hints of OP or "easy mode", has this kit not been over-played?

I agree with your premise but also lightswitch. The GI is OP but it is because of the synergy of his powers, all kits should have a variety of powers but they all should synergize as well as the GI's. Then balancing could occur.

The reason it's not overplayed as much is because it has been passed by less skill intensive classes with similar DPS or just a crap ton more survivability.

I agree with this.

Modifié par tyhw, 30 mai 2013 - 05:43 .

[Tybo]

ISHYGDDT wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

If I had written this topic I would have named it "The GI is the most unbalanced kit in the game." 

Grenade spam says hi.

Grenade spam doesn't do everything better than everyone else.

Grenade spam doesn't have to do everything better than everyone else: it depletes the wave budget faster than everyone else, which is the real metric for OPness in this game.  Furthermore, it requires only the skill of spawn prediction, which is also a requisite of success with every other kit as well.  

I also agree with this.  To keep up in kill count with players who are much better than me, grenades are the best way to go.  For a truly easy mode, relaxing game, grenades are the best way to go.  The true easiest classes  to dominate (and yes, I do mean dominate up to the level of the GI) with are the elite grenaders.

[MichaelFinnegan]

lightswitch wrote...

Every kit sucks in the hands of crappy players. The whole BS about the GI taking skill to play should just stop - he takes a modicum of skill, but once you figure out how useful AoE staggers are playing the GI becomes almost brainless.

The central issue is tactical cloak's proportional (potentially short) cooldown can override the cooldown of PM (this is true of all infiltrators - one could argue that the QMI could be far more effecient at killing stuff than the GI). I know this because TC's cooldown doesn't work properly off host, resulting in huge cooldowns sometimes. TC could be reworked in general to remain useful and at the same time more balanced.

Also, he doesn't really have the most diverse array of builds. Maybe three. The sniper build, the shotgun/SMG build, and a melee build.

You missed one of the most popular - the heavy pistol build.

If I had written this topic I would have named it "The GI is the most unbalanced kit in the game." Because no kit should be so good at everything.

Again, the central issue is how the TC's cooldown overrides the cooldown of other abilities. Perhaps TC could be reworked to give mutually exclusive damage abilites to either guns (specific guns even) or to powers, but not both. Once this is done, it's perhaps easier to see how the GI is a very effeciently designed kit in the game, with all abilities working to enhance his gameplay.

[Tallgeese_VII]

He is the most perfect when most perfectly played.

However, only the perfect character in ME3 MP is Geth Juggernaut.
Why? Beacuse it is the only kit that makes impossible(per game design) possible.

GI is my favorite kit. I`ve played him hundred of times and lead hundreds of PuGs to victory.
I wouldn`t describe him to be most perfect, but I`ll agree if you say he is the most powerful when played perfectly.
All GI`s power synergy exceptionally well with each other as you said, but to most BSNers who only care about his DPS this matters very little.

The perfect kit should be able to handle anything this game throw at you.
Sadly, GI is still squishy.. and if 3 teammates are dead and you have to do escort, hacking.. it can be not any easier than TGI, AIU or other characters.
Only kit that can do this is Geth Juggernaut. So I`ll dare say GJ is the perfect kit in this game, simly because good GJ can guarantee 100% win for any game.
Good GI, I`d say guarantee wins about 90-95%.

[ISHYGDDT]

HolyAvenger wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...


I guess I have to post this again.

 

You just compared abusing a glitch to an intended design.

Rly:?

So what? Even without glitches you would have to be stupid to think that they are balanced:  2 inferno grenades kills anything that isn't a Possessed Scion, Praetorian, Banshee, Geth Prime or Atlas and you get to carry 49 of them without even stopping by an ammo box.  In the video, you can see I didn't shoot the Brute or Ravager which is why the Brute dies slightly *after* the Banshee.  If I hadn't exploited anything i.e. I had taken AP ammo on the reegar for example.  I would have needed a total of one more grenade to kill the Banshee.

Less extreme, but still OP:  2 Lift Grenades kills everything on Cerberus/Geth Gold that isn't a Prime or an Atlas.  Arc Grenade -> Incinerate -> Arc Grenade does basically same thing.

What's more OP:  having a high weapon-damage boost which is basically wasted on infantry but allows you to kill bosses in 10 seconds or so, or having a button that you spam twice to kill everything in a seven meter radius? 

Everytime someone posts a scoreboard where they break 250K points and are proud of not using an 'OP Infiltrator'  they invariably have used a grenade class.

Here is a video from Hardcore Salmon where Cain mines are used instead of cobra missiles to speedrun platinum. 

[NuclearTech76]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Again, the central issue is how the TC's cooldown overrides the cooldown of other abilities. Perhaps TC could be reworked to give mutually exclusive damage abilites to either guns (specific guns even) or to powers, but not both. Once this is done, it's perhaps easier to see how the GI is a very effeciently designed kit in the game, with all abilities working to enhance his gameplay.

I'd rather them go the other way and make more abilites interact like TC and allow you to use a complimentary power during them like say maybe  like adrenaline rush is.

Modifié par NuclearTech76, 30 mai 2013 - 06:05 .

[Geek]

tyhw wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

If I had written this topic I would have named it "The GI is the most unbalanced kit in the game." 

Grenade spam says hi.

Grenade spam doesn't do everything better than everyone else.

Grenade spam doesn't have to do everything better than everyone else: it depletes the wave budget faster than everyone else, which is the real metric for OPness in this game.  Furthermore, it requires only the skill of spawn prediction, which is also a requisite of success with every other kit as well.  

I also agree with this.  To keep up in kill count with players who are much better than me, grenades are the best way to go.  For a truly easy mode, relaxing game, grenades are the best way to go.  The true easiest classes  to dominate (and yes, I do mean dominate up to the level of the GI) with are the elite grenaders.

There are a 3 things I think that enabled pretty much any character to dominate in the right hands.

1. Grenade gear
2. Changes to fire/cryo explosions
3. Armored Compartments.

Not that everything is equal and balanced, but pretty much everything is a viable option.

[MichaelFinnegan]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Again, the central issue is how the TC's cooldown overrides the cooldown of other abilities. Perhaps TC could be reworked to give mutually exclusive damage abilites to either guns (specific guns even) or to powers, but not both. Once this is done, it's perhaps easier to see how the GI is a very effeciently designed kit in the game, with all abilities working to enhance his gameplay.

I'd rather them go the other way and make more abilites interact like TC and allow you to use a complimentary power during them like say maybe  like adrenaline rush is.

Yeah, sure, or maybe make the "bonus power" evolution of TC work the same way as Adrenaline Rush, but for that probably the design of the TC itself would have to be changed. Taking the bonus power evolution in TC instead of the multiplacitive 25% damage bonus for guns would be the only way to use powers from cloak, but that would end the cloak damage effect immediately. As of now, I could cast a power from cloak and still get the damage bonus for guns...

[MermaidsTear]

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

He is the most perfect when most perfectly played.

However, only the perfect character in ME3 MP is Geth Juggernaut.
Why? Beacuse it is the only kit that makes impossible(per game design) possible.

GI is my favorite kit. I`ve played him hundred of times and lead hundreds of PuGs to victory.
I wouldn`t describe him to be most perfect, but I`ll agree if you say he is the most powerful when played perfectly.
All GI`s power synergy exceptionally well with each other as you said, but to most BSNers who only care about his DPS this matters very little.

The perfect kit should be able to handle anything this game throw at you.
Sadly, GI is still squishy.. and if 3 teammates are dead and you have to do escort, hacking.. it can be not any easier than TGI, AIU or other characters.
Only kit that can do this is Geth Juggernaut. So I`ll dare say GJ is the perfect kit in this game, simly because good GJ can guarantee 100% win for any game.
Good GI, I`d say guarantee wins about 90-95%.

Hey, I think you said the same thing abt Fury on Jade soloing obj waves I disagree with u on both GI and Fury. I think it's a matter of play style and how one handles solo obj in general... I don't have time for a wall of text for now, but we have yet to play. Maybe we'll bump into each other in pug one day if the enemy is set to geth, I'd always choose Fury for easy/lazy ride.

[Tybo]

Geek Fest wrote...

tyhw wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

If I had written this topic I would have named it "The GI is the most unbalanced kit in the game." 

Grenade spam says hi.

Grenade spam doesn't do everything better than everyone else.

Grenade spam doesn't have to do everything better than everyone else: it depletes the wave budget faster than everyone else, which is the real metric for OPness in this game.  Furthermore, it requires only the skill of spawn prediction, which is also a requisite of success with every other kit as well.  

I also agree with this.  To keep up in kill count with players who are much better than me, grenades are the best way to go.  For a truly easy mode, relaxing game, grenades are the best way to go.  The true easiest classes  to dominate (and yes, I do mean dominate up to the level of the GI) with are the elite grenaders.

There are a 3 things I think that enabled pretty much any character to dominate in the right hands.

1. Grenade gear
2. Changes to fire/cryo explosions
3. Armored Compartments.

Not that everything is equal and balanced, but pretty much everything is a viable option.

Personally, I'd add the acolyte, which I think really helps a lot of the "UP" classs.

The reegar too, if you wanna count that abomination...In particular, using it makes classes which have good survivability but low damage output quite powerful (eg volus), or characters with a IA glitch power absurd.

[Tallgeese_VII]

MermaidsTear wrote...

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

He is the most perfect when most perfectly played.

However, only the perfect character in ME3 MP is Geth Juggernaut.
Why? Beacuse it is the only kit that makes impossible(per game design) possible.

GI is my favorite kit. I`ve played him hundred of times and lead hundreds of PuGs to victory.
I wouldn`t describe him to be most perfect, but I`ll agree if you say he is the most powerful when played perfectly.
All GI`s power synergy exceptionally well with each other as you said, but to most BSNers who only care about his DPS this matters very little.

The perfect kit should be able to handle anything this game throw at you.
Sadly, GI is still squishy.. and if 3 teammates are dead and you have to do escort, hacking.. it can be not any easier than TGI, AIU or other characters.
Only kit that can do this is Geth Juggernaut. So I`ll dare say GJ is the perfect kit in this game, simly because good GJ can guarantee 100% win for any game.
Good GI, I`d say guarantee wins about 90-95%.

Hey, I think you said the same thing abt Fury on Jade soloing obj waves I disagree with u on both GI and Fury. I think it's a matter of play style and how one handles solo obj in general... I don't have time for a wall of text for now, but we have yet to play. Maybe we'll bump into each other in pug one day if the enemy is set to geth, I'd always choose Fury for easy/lazy ride.

Soloing and 3 people dead are not same.
btw, I don`t remember saying anything about fury and jade related together.

Modifié par Tallgeese_VII, 30 mai 2013 - 06:23 .

[Cirvante]

I disagree with the statement that the GI takes very little skill. I use him a lot and find him very easy to play despite his squishiness, but neither I nor Lightswitch for example represent the majority of the player base. When you go into PuGs you can see TGIs and AIUs with Grenade Capacity V kiss the ground 50% of the match. And they are using Harriers and Reegars, which are stupidly overpowered on these kits.

Give those players a GI with 350-700 shields and no free shield recharge/revive and they will spent 90% of every game in spectator mode. There is a reason why he is not overplayed like the other kits I mentioned. It's easy for us to say that he takes little skill, when we actually have a lot of skill.

[Deerber]

One word: DrellGod.

[MermaidsTear]

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

MermaidsTear wrote...

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

He is the most perfect when most perfectly played.

However, only the perfect character in ME3 MP is Geth Juggernaut.
Why? Beacuse it is the only kit that makes impossible(per game design) possible.

GI is my favorite kit. I`ve played him hundred of times and lead hundreds of PuGs to victory.
I wouldn`t describe him to be most perfect, but I`ll agree if you say he is the most powerful when played perfectly.
All GI`s power synergy exceptionally well with each other as you said, but to most BSNers who only care about his DPS this matters very little.

The perfect kit should be able to handle anything this game throw at you.
Sadly, GI is still squishy.. and if 3 teammates are dead and you have to do escort, hacking.. it can be not any easier than TGI, AIU or other characters.
Only kit that can do this is Geth Juggernaut. So I`ll dare say GJ is the perfect kit in this game, simly because good GJ can guarantee 100% win for any game.
Good GI, I`d say guarantee wins about 90-95%.

Hey, I think you said the same thing abt Fury on Jade soloing obj waves I disagree with u on both GI and Fury. I think it's a matter of play style and how one handles solo obj in general... I don't have time for a wall of text for now, but we have yet to play. Maybe we'll bump into each other in pug one day if the enemy is set to geth, I'd always choose Fury for easy/lazy ride.

Soloing and 3 people dead are not same.
btw, I don`t remember saying anything about fury and jade related together.

I meant when 3 teammates r dead and the remaining player had to solo.  

[mybudgee]

Bacon is the most perfect cut of pork in the game