34 réponses à ce sujet

[Linkenski]

 After seeing some of the threads here on this forum about speculations or suggestions for ME4, i will say i agree with most of peple discussing how you can add to customisation of the character. However, i think despite of what we think or might suggest Bioware will make the protagonist a "real" character like the auto-dialogue-heavy Shepard we got in ME3, unlike the blank slate he was in Mass Effect 1 and 2.

For people who didn't think too much about this, or if you haven't played 1 or 2, basically you got to define your character in Mass Effect 1 completely. His/her background is determined by the player, and almost every line of dialogue is something we determined through the dialogue wheel aka: No or very little autodialogue. In Mass Effect 3 a lot of control was taken from the player because there was probably more than 50% more autodialogue, and no middle option on the dialogue wheel.

Given the direction Bioware took, and considering the ME3 lead writer is still in his seat, i think the next protagonist of either ME4 or their next franchise is going to be pre-defined by Bioware's writers, and i mean FULLY pre-defined because the writers showed expressions on social medias several times that they though writing Shepard as a definitive character in Mass Effect 3 was a big positive over ME1 and ME2.

This is somewhat a blanket statement from me, but i have a hunch that it is very likely that we won't get to customise our character very much in the next game. Other games that play like Mass Effect like for instance The Witcher 2 features a main character "Geralt" who you don't get to customise other than some of his dialogue (the game has ME3 amount of auto-dialogue)  and given the critical acclaim that game got, Bioware might think it a good idea to do something similar.

So what do you guys think? Do you think this is the direction Bioware will take? Will you buy or pass on the game if it ends up like this? Discuss! 

[PwnedDuck]

I like it. I'd rather have an interesting character than one I decide. ME3 still allows you to act in very different ways, but finally they have some depth beyond whatever I make up.

[shodiswe]

Or maybe we could have a fast evolved Character... Where we play a few key point's in the characters life to decide what our character is like and a few background choices.

Almost like Genesis but in game gameplay with short sequences.

You get a fast forwarded rich character which you then feel a conection to.

Modifié par shodiswe, 30 mai 2013 - 01:57 .

[Sparbiter]

I hope not. I want to be able to create different characters. These games can't get more linear. That's a pattern that had to change

[Han Shot First]

Shepard was never a blank slate either.

For an example of a blank slate protagonist, see Skyrim. On that note, I hope you are right that the next protagonist won't be a blank slate. I like my RPG heroes to have some personality, even if that means the writers must canonize certain details about their personality or backstory.

[Brako Version 5.0]

I want a blank slate. I want to be able to create my character. And this time allow him to be properly good or bad.

[Red5392]

I like that Shepard wasn't really a blank slate. The Auto-dialogue never really bothered me.

[Linkenski]

Sparbiter wrote...

I hope not. I want to be able to create different characters. These games can't get more linear. That's a pattern that had to change

I don't know about that. When i played Mass Effect 3, it pained me to see how it had all these "set-piece moments" as if you were playing Uncharted. If Bioware truly think the next ME should be a spin-off then it could potentially be an on-rails, start-to-finish third person shooter with as many scripted moments as possible because that's the new trend games have been following since Uncharted 2. In the end we might even get a game that doesn't have RPG elements beyond customising weapons.

I really don't want this, but i think Mass Effect 3 was a step in that direction and if Bioware looks at the sales and critical acclaim rather than what people say on forums then i think we are gonna see a more linear game than we are used to.

[Linkenski]

Red5392 wrote...

I like that Shepard wasn't really a blank slate. The Auto-dialogue never really bothered me.

I will say that i liked how Shepard's voicework was a huge improvement in Mass Effect 3, and it's probably because they were able to write more coherent segments of dialogue attributed to his character because of autodialogue, making it easier for Mark Meer to read it with emotion when he was recording, but i don't see how it would be impossible to recreate this with more branching dialogue and less auto-dialogue. The writers just need to tie it up a notch and focus as well as having the proper time to create something like that.

I didn't mind auto-dialogue in a game like The Witcher because the game started with it, and Geralt is also the main character from the books which the series is based on, but it hurt my experience in ME3 because i was used to Shepard from ME1 and ME2, and it's apparent how big of a mistake it is when you import your save directly after beating ME2, which i did.

Double-post... my bad :-P

Modifié par Linkenski, 30 mai 2013 - 05:33 .

[Little Princess Peach]

you are forgetting most of the options in me1 resulted in the same answer, not even shepards tone changed with each choice, go on play the first one again you will see what I am talking about.

Also there was auto dialogue in me1 and 2, I did not find an Issue with it in 3 most games these days do it, witcher 3 for example.

[Linkenski]

I know about the dialogue in ME1 and i have noticed it the last times i played it. Honestly i still liked that much more than Shepards autodialogue in ME3, because Shepard sounds pretty dumb sometimes, or his opinion feels totally opposite of what i think. In ME1 i at least felt like the dialogue i chose impacted the meaning of what Shepard said, or sometimes if he said something that contradicted the paraphrasing i just went with what the paraphrasing said in my head, rather that what Shepard actually said.

Also ME2 has way more autodialogue than ME1, but it was well-balanced in that game and we got a ton of dialogue choices that changed what shepard said most of the time, and there was a big variation in what he did when you said something renegade compared to when you chose paragon.

It really bugged me how, in ME2 the dialogue wheel had an organic layout where choices were presented and aligned according to what they felt or implied, when in ME3 theres only 1 paragon choice and 1 neutral/renegade choice and sometimes 1 "elaborate" option.

Let's check a scene that reoccurs in all three games and compare how dialogue choices were laid out shall we?

How about Khalisah Bint Sinan Al-Jilani the Westerlund news reporter that has been punch a billion times in total or so. She has one similar scene in each game, and you get to conduct the interview or punch her in all of them.

Mass Effect 1:
- Conducting a paragon interview with the reporter
- Conducting a renegade interview with her
- Punching the reporter

Mass Effect 2:
- This video contains every outcome of the interview in Mass Effect 2

Mass Effect 3:
- Every outcome of her third appearance

Now let's see how they're all laid out.

In Mass Effect 1 you get 9 dialogue-wheels. The first 2 has 3 options. A paragon, a renegade and one neutral. In the third two of them are persuade and intimidate. following this you get 3 wheels each with 5 options. Again, one is paragon, one is renegade and one is neutral, but you also get one persuade and intimidate option. In the last dialogue wheel you get the same where the persuade and intimidate are just normal choices that are either paragon or renegade. Some of the main 3 morally aligned choices might be the same in some of the wheels.

In Mass Effect 2 you get 1 interrupt prompt and 2 dialogue-wheels. The first dialogue-wheel has 3 standard morally aligned choices. The second has 4 with one paragon, neutral, persuade and intimidate option. In the last dialogue wheel the option you choose leads to several lines that are all different and unique.

So far we can see a decrease in dialogue options, but it doesn't hurt it all that much since the different outcomes of the scene in Mass Effect 2 are vastly different.

Let's see what happens in Mass Effect 3 then.
You get no dialogue-wheels but there are 2 renegade interrupts and 1 paragon in total. So this scene is a complete rollercoaster, you don't get to explicitly choose any of Shepard's dialogue as you can't see a paraphrase of it beforehand.

Now let me ask you this. In a game where you have access to free roaming, don't you want to be able to experiment and explore things? How many times would you be able to replay the game before you've seen everything? This is why i couldn't stand auto-dialogue. Interrupt prompts should only be there when shepard does something action-ish like when he punches. There's no need for the cutscene to keep its flow just for the sake of it being movie-ish. I like freedom and sense of exploration in games. I didn't really get that in Mass Effect 3.

[JamieCOTC]

I hate auto-dialogue in a game such as Mass Effect, that said, I feel they should go completely predefined w/ the next character. Have a Nathan Drake or Adam Jensen style character would probably fit the writing style of the ME team much better than a hybrid such as Shepard. ME3 almost feels as if the character customization got in the way of the story they are trying to tell, (dream sequences, fall of Thessia, Pro Alliance, etc, etc). But w/ a predefined character and a choice of only one or two LIs (or none) the player could delve a bit more into the lore and world of ME. Choices should be streamlined as well to only a handful throughout the game w/ one big choice at the end such as is customary in a BW game. Rather than BW asking you who this character is and what is going to happen allow the writers to tell you who the character is and what is going to happen them. Let them take you by the hand and lead you on that journey.

I wouldn't play such a game if you gave it to me and no doubt they would lose fans, but if ME3 is any indication I truly believe the ME team is better off getting rid of the custom/hybrid style character.

[Linkenski]

I catch your drift, but i think the problem was more likely the story they were trying to tell rather than the customisation. In ME2 it felt like the game acknowledged how you customised things, but in ME3 they set out to change too many things about the story. The dream-sequences and their try at symbolism is something i felt was too much for a game like Mass Effect and in the end it was rather forced anyway, so maybe they should've just continued it as the space opera it used to be and end it like that instead of all the artistic nonsense.

[Guanxii]

While I would much prefer to have the dialogue wheel restored to it's former glory and reject the constant trend towards increasing linearity, set pieces and taking control away from the player the fact is it's cheaper and arguably more effective.

It seemed to me that once BioWare and Mass Effect changed hands from Drew to Mac (and EA) the perspective has shifted and it's gradually become their story rather than ours and their marketing reflects this.

The next game can either go one of two ways I agree... either they continue the current trend or they do a 360 and give the player the freedom to create a more personalized journey... but thats starting to sound expensive.

On a meta-level the cure for the ending would have been more choice or variety in endings rather than going further down their own linear but pretty rabbit hole and if this trend continues it seams they will have learned nothing from this whole mess.

Modifié par Guanxii, 31 mai 2013 - 11:21 .

[BioWareAre****s]

Mass Effect 3 contained 30,000 lines of dialogue. THIRTY THOUSAND. Did it occur to anyone that the amount of auto dialogue was due to constraints in writing time, VA budget, game size, and the writers not having super powers?

[Linkenski]

Whenever someone brings the "over 40,000 lines of spoken dialogue" up i take it the same way as when, for example, Bioware defended the ending in their initial response where they said "but the game has 75 perfect scores, so what does your opinion matter". To me it's simply a number to blind you from the fact that it doesn't really mean it's better to you.

I mean, wouldn't you rather have that they cut that amount down to 30,000 but every dialogue from Shepard was chosen through the dialogue wheel, or at least whenever Shepard has to take a stand, or is asked of his opinion? Some of those 40.000 lines are complete waste, like the Blasto easter egg and the citadel banter. I think it's cool and it adds to the immersion, but i felt even more immersed in the other games because they added more pointless, but interactive things to the hub areas, like the "look at vista, talk to squadmate" markers.

I think it's impressive that there has been recorded so much voice work to just one game, and it should be a record-breaker, but i don't consider it to be an argument that the game is better because of it.

[Linkenski]

Guanxii wrote...

While I would much prefer to have the dialogue wheel restored to it's former glory and reject the constant trend towards increasing linearity, set pieces and taking control away from the player the fact is it's cheaper and arguably more effective.

It seemed to me that once BioWare and Mass Effect changed hands from Drew to Mac (and EA) the perspective has shifted and it's gradually become their story rather than ours and their marketing reflects this.

The next game can either go one of two ways I agree... either they continue the current trend or they do a 360 and give the player the freedom to create a more personalized journey... but thats starting to sound expensive.

On a meta-level the cure for the ending would have been more choice or variety in endings rather than going further down their own linear but pretty rabbit hole and if this trend continues it seams they will have learned nothing from this whole mess.

I've always thought that Mac is responsible for making it more "their story" because judging from what i have seen from him in interviews he's always either underestimating the intelligence of the fanbase or in general he doesn't seem too empathic. Drew was one of the designers of the dialogue wheel and they also had this cinematic director on ME2 who came up with something titled as "the agreement" a ruleset that determined what the writers should always strive to put in every dialogue wheel, and one rule was "always strive to include the choices players would want" and that's clearly missing from ME3. I don't know if he left or was fired.
I don't know man, it's just my hunch, but every time i hear something from Mac Walters, the more i know he's the reason why they lost focus from what made me like the series. Aside from the ending i don't really like most of the other missions he came up with, like the Citadel Coup or the Cerberus HQ. Each of them contain too many stupid twists that feel contrived, and he wrote Shepard and TIM as if they was much less intelligent than they used to be. Maybe that says more about Walters intelligence than anything else.

Remember these lines?
- "This isn't about strategy or tactics! This is about survival ... We fight or we die!", from one of Mac's assigned levels.
- "You're either with me or against me, there is nothing gray about that!". another one from Mac.
- "If we can get to the artifact, WE WIN this war!" I love Mac.
- "Without us to stop it, Synthetics WILL destroy ALL organics" and "The created WILL ALWAYS rebel against their creators"

So many characters that speak of absolute but baseless truths. Mac Walters continually uses absolutism because maybe he thinks it sounds cool or something, but it really, really hurts the quality of the narrative, because it makes characters sound unintelligent.

Off-topic but the more i write it, the more i hope he sees it and... at least knows what i think he shouldn't do the next time around.

[Man with Guitar]

I think it's kind of a vague line.
Although I did miss some of the elements that were sacrificed in ME3, at the same time it generally seemed justifiable to me in the context of what they were trying to get across with ME3's story (WAY bigger in scope than the previous 2). Yeah, I missed the deeper level of customization (both dialogue AND character-wise), but - as I mentioned - it felt like these sacrifices were ultimately necessary, and I personally think it worked out rather perfectly in the end (IMHO of course).

THAT being said, when it comes to the future ME titles -- I like to think that they might return closer to the roots of the original. A more confined story - even more detail given to individual characters - perhaps bringing back some of the more RPG-centric elements from the first - and greater customization in terms of player-choices & outcomes.

Of course I said "I LIKE to think". It certainly is tempting to figure that considering the path the series has taken so far, that they may continue trudging down the Gears of Effect road

[ManOfSteel]

Red5392 wrote...

I like that Shepard wasn't really a blank slate. The Auto-dialogue never really bothered me.

Absolutely this. I liked that Shepard was his own character, and the auto-dialogue wasn't an issue for me. At all.

[rapscallioness]

Well, I'm sure writing the more "defined" Shep in ME3 was a big positive for them because it was easier. The whole dialogue choices and whatnot is very complex and difficult to pull off.

For me, however, it was not such a big positive.

[Slayer299]

I would have to agree with the OP, it seems that Bioware (with this franchise) is moving away from a more 'blankish-slate' character to one more defined by what BW wants as the main character, as can be seen by the amount of auto-dialogue in 3. That was not something I liked very much at all... 

Modifié par Slayer299, 02 juin 2013 - 04:52 .

[Nineteen]

All I know is that no matter what, the new protagonist can fight like a krogan, run like a leopard, but he'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

[Linkenski]

That song should have been in the credits of Mass Effect 3!

[thehomeworld]

BW shows they want to go that way anyway with all the auto dialouge from 3. For them if the character was completely predictible it would make their lives more easier and those of us who liked to role play at a loss.

The way BW made ME3 they may want to just give us choices in ME4 that are minor like who do we want to love, do we want to punch or hug this npc, do we want to do this sidequest or not, there will no longer be any save the council, do we kill more queens, do we brainwash anymore people, or do we blow up the base or not.

Instead BW will already have it in the script that we blow up everything weather it makes sense to or not, we will just save the council because that's what the plot called for. They will only allow us to have minor wheel choice moments that if we're uber lucky will be of two choices so our hero is presented as a morron with only 2 thought in their head at any given moment and beyound that it'll be auto dailouge all the way. This of course will all suck.

I liked ME not just for the well thought out plot, characters, the obvious honor paid towards classic sci fi like star treck and farscape, the cause and effect of each action, and the plausibility of the plot but I also liked ME for the dailaouge wheel I got 3 - 5 options like my hero had thoughts or more then one concern on their mind, I liked being able to flesh out the conversations and delve into topics I thought were intriging, I also liked how the outfits both casual and armor respected not just fshep but her female crew non one on my crew were sex objects or pandering playthings they kept that to the civillian and dancer clubs because if those girls want to dress that way that's their business in the millitary there are different standards higher ones that will be fallowed.

However I should also point out for BW I do not like the brick shep seen in ME - ME2. Shep having nightmares was great (didn't go anywhere though and didn't trumatize him/her over the long haul though) I liked how shep looked defeated after Thessia, I liked how shep looked upset when Anderson said he'd stay on Earth, I liked how shep was angry after Earth, I liked how shep tried to cover up their sense of fear for their LI right before Earth, I like how momshep loves Grunt or how dadshep forces him to apologize, non brick shep is way cooler then ice brick shep. I like shep being human I don't like all the autodailouge though.That takes me out of his/her shoes and makes me a bystander and I don't like that. I'm placed in his shoes 1 - 2 then in 3 I'm only in them half the time and that's not good. 

Now back to the wheel and more on topic: I would like to expand on it more as far as back and fourth like with Tali we don't just ask her one question in ME we can keep asking for a while I'd also like to have more branches in how the conversation flows like in Deus Ex Huaman Revolution the best three conversations to highlight what I mean would be between Jensen and Hass, Jensen and Serif over the back door link, and Sandoval these are back a fourths I'd like to have not just with my antagonists but with my crew in casual converstions multiple back and fourths and outcomes.

Modifié par thehomeworld, 04 juin 2013 - 03:42 .

[Lars10178]

I'd love to have a fully blank character like shepard. Human and Turian would be the my preference, and I'd want to have more open world