1082 réponses à ce sujet

[Lt_Riley]

I've just finished reading until we sleep #3 and I have to say Mr. Gaider; I am not happy with the way mages were portrayed as demonic worshippers who enslaved mankind, commanded legions of demon underlings and had dragon sentinels frying anyone who got out of line; while the templar in shining armor was praised as the grand hero for putting the evil mages down like animals to restore peace & justice. Why is it always painted this way?

Dragon age origins: All mages who just wanted a longer leash were portrayed as muderous megalomaniacs who consorted with demons and even killed their own kind in the name of getting what they want. While gregoir and the templars were hailed as heroes for holding the line and keeping the abominations locked up until back up arrived to purged the tower of its crisis.  And yeah I get you were trying to push that the templars were just as bad for keeping innocent mages locked behind the great doors as well, but even in that they achieve more renown. If monsters are pounding at the gates, what commander is going to open the door for five people (mages or not), when thousands of lives depend on them holding the line? Answer: None that wouldn't be reprimanded and stripped of their station for choosing to save a few while thousands of others were ripped to shreds.

But what of the mages; where is their grand renown in all this? There isn't any. All wynne and irving attempted to do was stop a crisis that wouldn't of come to pass if one of their own hadn't existed to bring it to fruition. In the end the mages are thanked for helping to avert a crisis, but at what cost? the tarnish to the mages image is already done, and the templars are only further exalted in their everwatchfulness because of it. And to add injury to insult, the surving good mages (wynne/irving) adamantly bend knee to the templar. Because only those mages who hail to the templar have squeaky clean records and can do no wrong. But mages who just want to be free of the templars ever watchful eye like jowan have to be secret blood mages and would be murders, with their only reward as having their heads lopped off like poor titus.

Even my dear morrigan turned out to be a foul charlatan. For all her talk of "Not every mage turns to bloodmagic, some of us want to be free", she comes to me in the shadows before the final battle with foul talk of evil demon god hybrids coming into being through blood magic sex rites. Makers breath, between her, merrill and anders, is there any mage the pc enter a relationship with, without them turning out to be consorting with demon spirits? To be fair, with merrill and Anders you kinda knew what you were getting into way before hand, but morrigan was a shocker.

Dragon age 2: Where do I even begin with the templars justification for keeping every mage enslaved? Merrill practicing blood magic and unleashing Ancient demons? Mages kidnapping and implanting templars with demons because they think its fun? Grace turning to blood magic and still hating her savior no matter if hawke let her go? Anders merging with a demon? Anders promoting extremist warfare groups in the name of freedom? Anders committing grand acts of terrorism because the demon influenced him to do it? or maybe all the secret blood mages in the tower that justified merediths originally insane charge?

But what of the templars evil in dragon age 2? The templars were shown to be too strict on the circle, making mages tranquil at will, beating mages and raping mages. But what did any of that matter in the end? The were completely justified in all their beliefs in everything they did because the mages were corrupt blood mages. Even the tranquil solution was highly justified by end game. What's funny is, if one sides with the templars they are all with you to the end, even though they are slaughtering all mages without question, but mages? Your own mage armament tries to kill their own commander who is only looking out for them.

Dawn of the Seeker: Finally the templars have some dirt splattered on their image for a change, or do they? The knight commander with the...ugh... help of his blood mage accomplice is trying to hatch a scheme to overthrow the divine and put a new one on the throne, so he can have justification to futher abuse the mages. Seriously? The templars can't even make themselves look bad without bring the mages down with them? Ugh. Anyways now the corrupts templars goals may look foul at first but (G2g Tbc)

[DatOneFanboy]

Hi im not reading this

[PsychoBlonde]

Lt_Riley wrote...

I've just finished reading until we sleep #3 and I have to say Mr. Gaider; I am not happy with the way mages were portrayed as demonic worshippers who enslaved mankind, commanded legions of demon underlings and had dragon sentinels frying anyone who got out of line; while the templar in shining armor was praised as the grand hero for putting the evil mages down like animals to restore peace & justice. Why is it always painted this way?

Say what?  Maric isn't a templar; he was king of Ferelden before Cailan.  Maevaris, who assisted Maric in slaying Titus, is a MAGE.  A transvestite mage, even.

Are you sure "reading" was what you did, instead of just looking at the pictures?

[n7stormrunner]

..... you fail da 2 forever... that is all

[Fredward]

Meh. I think the point here is that you get extremists on both sides. There is no right or wrong.

Though the mages are totally right. Just fyi.

[Ridwan]

I thought the Templars were the bad guys.

[IanPolaris]

M25105 wrote...

I thought the Templars were the bad guys.

As far as I am concerned, they are (more or less...there is no reason why you can't have good individual templars of course).

I think the fundamental problem is this.  DG wanted to set up a "morally grey" conflict between freedom and security when he was first making the DA universe.  Such a tension was a very common theme in fiction immediately post 9/11.

The problem is that what DG (and apparently BW as a whole) thought was morally grey really wasn't, and instead of simply accepting that and rolling with it, the first impulse seems to have been to slant and slime one side so that the choice appears to be "greyer" than it really is.  We already know that BW has admitted that one of the reasons why the mages were presented so unfairly in DA2 was because (in the eyes of the BW writers) too many people were siding with mages in DAO.  Guess what?  Most people still side with the mages even in DA2.

That's my take anyways.

-Polaris

[Lt_Riley]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

I've just finished reading until we sleep #3 and I have to say Mr. Gaider; I am not happy with the way mages were portrayed as demonic worshippers who enslaved mankind, commanded legions of demon underlings and had dragon sentinels frying anyone who got out of line; while the templar in shining armor was praised as the grand hero for putting the evil mages down like animals to restore peace & justice. Why is it always painted this way?

Say what?  Maric isn't a templar; he was king of Ferelden before Cailan.  Maevaris, who assisted Maric in slaying Titus, is a MAGE.  A transvestite mage, even.

Are you sure "reading" was what you did, instead of just looking at the pictures?

Please, no need to attempt to undermine my intelligence. I've read the entire series. I'm well aware maric isn't a templar; but Alistair is, and it was Alistair who rallied the qunari, Alistair who led the charge against titus, it was Alistairs plan that let mae get maric close enough to kill titus and finally it was Alistair who destroyed the orb once and for all.

[Mr.House]

Someone didn't pay attention to the comic. a Tevinter mage helped Alistair and co save his father from a corrupt mage. Maric is not a Templar, he was king of Ferelden. Also evil mages exist, just like evil templars exists. In fact If DA3 does templars and mages like Asunder and mages like the comic then I will be very happy.

[Aolbain]

Indeed, how dare he portray something you don't like in a positive light.

[Mr.House]

Lt_Riley wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

I've just finished reading until we sleep #3 and I have to say Mr. Gaider; I am not happy with the way mages were portrayed as demonic worshippers who enslaved mankind, commanded legions of demon underlings and had dragon sentinels frying anyone who got out of line; while the templar in shining armor was praised as the grand hero for putting the evil mages down like animals to restore peace & justice. Why is it always painted this way?

Say what?  Maric isn't a templar; he was king of Ferelden before Cailan.  Maevaris, who assisted Maric in slaying Titus, is a MAGE.  A transvestite mage, even.

Are you sure "reading" was what you did, instead of just looking at the pictures?

Please, no need to attempt to undermine my intelligence. I've read the entire series. I'm well aware maric isn't a templar; but Alistair is, and it was Alistair who rallied the qunari, Alistair who led the charge against titus, it was Alistairs plan that let mae get maric close enough to kill titus and finally it was Alistair who destroyed the orb once and for all.

Alistair is not a templar, he is a king. Alistair was going to be a templar but never took his vows and thus never became a templar. Also you are acting like Titus was a good ugy, he was not. Mae was a good mage.

[MisterJB]

Did you seriously just say "Poor Titus". You know, the guy who wanted to enslave the very souls of all non-mages in Thedas. That just completely ruined any credibility you could have.

[AresKeith]

When are Templars ever good guys?

[n7stormrunner]

when you take over/brainwash them in the next game?

[IanPolaris]

AresKeith wrote...

When are Templars ever good guys?

Ser Otto in Denerim's alienage comes immediately to mind. Edit:  Also Knight Commander Gregoire is someone I would generally regard as a good guy (more good than bad anyways).

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 30 mai 2013 - 08:54 .

[Mr.House]

AresKeith wrote...

When are Templars ever good guys?

There's good templars, to beleive that's not the case is nonsense. Just liek with mages. The fact is both groupd have evil people. Yes Titus was a evil mage. But who helped Alistair? A tevinter mage. Also Asunder has plenty of good mages and while only one good templer, she was still a great character that showed not all templars where a-holes.

[Lt_Riley]

Mr.House wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

I've just finished reading until we sleep #3 and I have to say Mr. Gaider; I am not happy with the way mages were portrayed as demonic worshippers who enslaved mankind, commanded legions of demon underlings and had dragon sentinels frying anyone who got out of line; while the templar in shining armor was praised as the grand hero for putting the evil mages down like animals to restore peace & justice. Why is it always painted this way?

Say what?  Maric isn't a templar; he was king of Ferelden before Cailan.  Maevaris, who assisted Maric in slaying Titus, is a MAGE.  A transvestite mage, even.

Are you sure "reading" was what you did, instead of just looking at the pictures?

Please, no need to attempt to undermine my intelligence. I've read the entire series. I'm well aware maric isn't a templar; but Alistair is, and it was Alistair who rallied the qunari, Alistair who led the charge against titus, it was Alistairs plan that let mae get maric close enough to kill titus and finally it was Alistair who destroyed the orb once and for all.

Alistair is not a templar, he is a king. Alistair was going to be a templar but never took his vows and thus never became a templar. Also you are acting like Titus was a good ugy, he was not. Mae was a good mage.

Semantics. Alistair has all the abilities of a templar, making him a templar and he frequently refers to himself as a ex-templar. Also Mae isn't good, she's a back stabber.

[Mr.House]

Seraph Cross wrote...

The real problem is that there isn't enough moral grayness on both sides. There are too many close minded zealots on the templar side. While the mages have too many blood mages.

Or people like Grand Enchanter Fiona and Adrian who are willing to get freedom even if it makes them no better then their sussposed oppersors.

[Ravensword]

Seraph Cross wrote...

The real problem is that there isn't enough moral grayness on both sides. There are too many close minded zealots on the templar side. While the mages have too many blood mages.

There also aren't enough morally grey blood mage NPCs. They're all a bunch of twisted psychopaths.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Erm it's not nearly as clear cut as that OP. There are good and bad people on both sides.

[Mr.House]

Lt_Riley wrote...

Semantics. Alistair has all the abilities of a templar, making him a templar and he frequently refers to himself as a ex-templar. Also Mae isn't good, she's a back stabber.

I'm sorry that Gaider refused to paint all mages as innocent butterflies who just want freedom and not power.

[MisterJB]

Mr.House wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

When are Templars ever good guys?

There's good templars, to beleive that's not the case is nonsense. Just liek with mages. The fact is both groupd have evil people. Yes Titus was a evil mage. But who helped Alistair? A tevinter mage. Also Asunder has plenty of good mages and while only one good templer, she was still a great character that showed not all templars where a-holes.

Evangeline is NOT a good templar. She did her duty well in the beginning and middle of the book when she protected the Divine, arrested Rhys for suspicious behavior, stopped Adrian from hurting people and also protected the mages from an angry mob but she completely allowed for her sympathies to override her sense of duty when she helped start a world war.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 mai 2013 - 09:00 .

[Mr.House]

MisterJB wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

When are Templars ever good guys?

There's good templars, to beleive that's not the case is nonsense. Just liek with mages. The fact is both groupd have evil people. Yes Titus was a evil mage. But who helped Alistair? A tevinter mage. Also Asunder has plenty of good mages and while only one good templer, she was still a great character that showed not all templars where a-holes.

Evangeline is NOT a good templars. She did her duty well in the middle of the book when she stopped Adrian from hurting people but also protected the mages from an angry mob but she completely allowed for her sympathies to override her sense of duty when she helped start a world war.

Yes she broke her duty, but she did it so important reasrech that does deserve to be knowen was surfaced. Like Cullen, she is a bad templar because they did rebel against their CO but they did it for reasons that where right. Also remeber, this conflict would have not gotten so far had it not been for Adrian.

Modifié par Mr.House, 30 mai 2013 - 09:02 .

[n7stormrunner]

... really she sounds like a good templar