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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I don't follow.

I will make it simple.  We see villianous mages do terrible things to both Hawke and his/her loved ones all the time as active antognists and we are forced to counter them in active game play.  We not only have their evil displayed but constantly thrown in our face.  Frankenmommy was a classic example, but Tahrone fit this bill as well.

By contrast you never actually see the Templars do anything bad.  It's strongly implied, sure, and the characterization of many is bad sure, but you never actually have it thrown in your face.

This is stacking the deck and I am calling 'foul'.

-Polaris

Aren't you sent to take down Meredith's civilian-killing death squads if you side with the mages? Doesn't Meredith call a legally allowed Annulment that is nonetheless so far beyond the spirit of the law that Gaider flat out stated that she'd answer for it if she'd lived through it? Doesn't she betray the crap out of you in the end even if you give her literally no reason to do so? While I've never heard of the killing of the families thing, (I've only played Origins, and this is just me working off second hand knowledge, here) it also seems to me from the descriptions that that's heavily enough implied as to not require showing. It seems to me that it's thrown in your face that the Templars aren't exactly paragons.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 31 mai 2013 - 06:53 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I don't follow.

I will make it simple.  We see villianous mages do terrible things to both Hawke and his/her loved ones all the time as active antognists and we are forced to counter them in active game play.  We not only have their evil displayed but constantly thrown in our face.  Frankenmommy was a classic example, but Tahrone fit this bill as well.

By contrast you never actually see the Templars do anything bad.  It's strongly implied, sure, and the characterization of many is bad sure, but you never actually have it thrown in your face.

This is stacking the deck and I am calling 'foul'.

-Polaris

Both sides have it thrown in your face how bad they are, the templars are just much more subtlely done than the mages. Mages you constantly hear how victimized they are, and you constantly hear how evil the templars are abusing and lobotomizing them, and how they live in constant fear and oppression from their evil templar overlords. But than you also see mages going nuts, not all of them, but some, in fact I'd say it's equal to the amount of evil you hear templars doing.

So I guess it comes down to weather you regard seeing as a much more effective method than consant repition and reminders through hearing of their deeds. I find the levels of negative portrayls of mages and templars to be equal myself.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Indeed it did survive. Just like humanity survived countless of floods, tsunamis, hurricans, erruptions and everything else. Humanity is ressilient. Humantiy breeds fast. Humanity is spread out.

It's not easy to stomp out - especially when abominatiosn themsleves have to foot slog it.

So no, nothing really incredible about humantiy surviving. The question you should be asking is how difficult did abominatiosn make humanities survival.

The imperium, the dalish, and countless other societies probalby developed their own methods of training mages and methods of handleing them or dealing with abominations. They didn't just let mages wander around, doing as they pleased.

The circle hasn't always been there, and before the circle everything wasn't the end of the world 24/7 with the world filled with abominations. If that were the case, the imperium would have many, many, more abominations running around and many, many, less people in it's cities. There are alternatives that have developed, some more gresome, some more humane, all of them with their strengths and weaknesses. But what is doubtful is that the circle is the best method for all mages across all of thedas, in all circumstances.

The Imperium has Circles too. The mages who aren't powerful enough to be Magisters get roughly the same treatment under the Black Chantry as the White.

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Aren't you sent to take down Meredith's civilian-killing death squads if you side with the mages? Doesn't Meredith call a legally allowed Annulment that is nonetheless so far beyond the spirit of the law that Gaider flat out stated that she'd answer for it if she'd lived through it? Doesn't she betray the crap out of you in the end even if you give her literally no reason to do so? While I've never heard of the killing of the families thing, (this is just me working off second hand knowledge, here) it also seems to me from the descriptions that that's heavily enough implied as to not require showing. It seems to me that it's thrown in your face that the Templars aren't exactly paragons.

All of these are valid points, and I'll agree that it's not necessary to show everything all the time, but that standard should be applied equally to both sides if you want to present the conflict honestly and IMHO it's not.  The Mage crimes are literally not only obvious but paraded right in front of our face.  Not so much for the Templars, and that is stacking the deck.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Imperium has Circles too. The mages who aren't powerful enough to be Magisters get roughly the same treatment under the Black Chantry as the White.

The modern Imperium has circles.  However the point still very much applies to Tevinter as a whole.  Given how much magic was honored and respected in Tevinter, and given how it was practiced, if abominations really were the risk the ChantryTemplars insist, then Ancient Tevinter should have been nothing but a smoking ruin long before Andraste.

-Polaris

[Hazegurl]

So this guy isn't portrayed as badly as the mages?? Do we HAVE to see this guy raping chicks to get that he is a disgusting human being?

[IanPolaris]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Both sides have it thrown in your face how bad they are, the templars are just much more subtlely done than the mages.

The underlined part is stacking the deck.  Heck the Devs for DA2 have even admitted this.
There is no intrinsic reason why the Templars had to be more or less subtlely done than the Mages.


-Polaris

[Cainhurst Crow]

I wonder if the tevinter ever used blood magic against abominations? Could they have even used them to boost their own magic through making them a sacrifice? Would be terribly ironic for a demon possessed mage to be slain using demonic arts.

[Dave of Canada]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I wonder if the tevinter ever used blood magic against abominations? Could they have even used them to boost their own magic through making them a sacrifice? Would be terribly ironic for a demon possessed mage to be slain using demonic arts.

Tevinter have Templar to deal with abominations and mages which become too problematic.

[IanPolaris]

Hazegurl wrote...

So this guy isn't portrayed as badly as the mages?? Do we HAVE to see this guy raping chicks to get that he is a disgusting human being?

We never actually SEE him do anything wrong.  Contrast that with Tarhone, and Quentin (Frankenmommy)

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I wonder if the tevinter ever used blood magic against abominations? Could they have even used them to boost their own magic through making them a sacrifice? Would be terribly ironic for a demon possessed mage to be slain using demonic arts.

Tevinter have Templar to deal with abominations and mages which become too problematic.

Ancient Tevinter did not, but Ancient Tevinter did just fine.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I wonder if the tevinter ever used blood magic against abominations? Could they have even used them to boost their own magic through making them a sacrifice? Would be terribly ironic for a demon possessed mage to be slain using demonic arts.

I don't see why they wouldn't.  You use what you have and blood magic is extremely potent, and you'd want potent magic to fight an abomination (esp a pride one).

-Polaris

[Cainhurst Crow]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Both sides have it thrown in your face how bad they are, the templars are just much more subtlely done than the mages.

The underlined part is stacking the deck.  Heck the Devs for DA2 have even admitted this.
There is no intrinsic reason why the Templars had to be more or less subtlely done than the Mages.


-Polaris

I guess it's because of the fans and their constant swooning over the plight of the mages without considering what magic could actually do. I find Dragon age 2's style not too bad actually, and it managed to convey to me a sense that both sides were equally garbage. Every templar ended up being a corrupt, boarderline rapist, medievil equilivant of the KKK, and all the mages ended up portrayed as unstable, prone to demonic powers in self defense, easily crazed people.

How about we both hope that bioware has more subtle approach to both sides when it comes to inquisition. Though I don't mind the serial killer and having his deeds shown since I don't really consider him a mage anymore at that point but a deranged lunatic that needs to be killed, magic or no magic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Imperium has Circles too. The mages who aren't powerful enough to be Magisters get roughly the same treatment under the Black Chantry as the White.

The modern Imperium has circles.  However the point still very much applies to Tevinter as a whole.  Given how much magic was honored and respected in Tevinter, and given how it was practiced, if abominations really were the risk the ChantryTemplars insist, then Ancient Tevinter should have been nothing but a smoking ruin long before Andraste.

-Polaris

They were probably defeated using arts that the Chantry's Templars are scared of. Don't forget that the Chantry is also afraid that the mages will force the White Chantry's lands to their will if they are not controlled, which while cynical is backed up by Tarohne's actions.

I personally argue that there's a time and place to use these arts, and while being faced down by an ogre or an abomination is probably that time. Still, it's better there are Templars to handle it, maybe with the support of such mages as can be trusted with this power.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 31 mai 2013 - 07:09 .

[IanPolaris]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How about we both hope that bioware has more subtle approach to both sides when it comes to inquisition. Though I don't mind the serial killer and having his deeds shown since I don't really consider him a mage anymore at that point but a deranged lunatic that needs to be killed, magic or no magic.

Yeah, I can agree with most of that.  I constantly mention Quentin the serial killer because I think you're right.  He's a deranged person that needs to be taken down because he's a crazy person that likes to kill older women.  However that game itself makes a huge hairy deal over the fact he was a mage and the writers very obviously and ham-fistedly (IMHO) try to use this to make you hate all magic.  Not only is it one of Hawke's possible lines when being comforted afterwords, but Meredith never shuts up about it later.

-Polaris

[Bleachrude]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Imperium has Circles too. The mages who aren't powerful enough to be Magisters get roughly the same treatment under the Black Chantry as the White.

The modern Imperium has circles.  However the point still very much applies to Tevinter as a whole.  Given how much magic was honored and respected in Tevinter, and given how it was practiced, if abominations really were the risk the ChantryTemplars insist, then Ancient Tevinter should have been nothing but a smoking ruin long before Andraste.

-Polaris

The modern day circles were created based on the circle of magi of ancient tevinter...not sure why you think the circles are a chantry creation when the game tells you that the chantry copied its structure from tevinter records

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They were probably defeated using arts that the Chantry's Templars are scared of. Don't forget that the Chantry is also afraid that the mages will force the White Chantry's lands to their will if they are not controlled, which while cynical is backed up by Tarohne's actions.

It's not just cynical and more than a little hypocritical, but it also seems to be wrong.  If mind-control magic were really as easy as all that, then the entire world would have been controlled by a handful of mind-controlling abominations in Tevinter, and there would have been no chance of rebellion and no Andraste or anything else.

While mindcontrol is a powerful (and dangerous) tool [which should almost certainly be strongly regulated and outright illegal for most...read 95%+...of mages], it's clearly not the boogyman the Chantry would have you think.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Bleachrude wrote...

The modern day circles were created based on the circle of magi of ancient tevinter...not sure why you think the circles are a chantry creation when the game tells you that the chantry copied its structure from tevinter records

This flatly contradicts the official game lore (read Codex Entry: History of the Circle and Codex Histories: History of the Chantry).

I challenge this.  Citation Needed.  In fact the Codex Entry: History of the Circle flat out tells us that the Chantry Circles represented a seperation of mages from the general population for the first time in history.

-Polaris

[Cainhurst Crow]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How about we both hope that bioware has more subtle approach to both sides when it comes to inquisition. Though I don't mind the serial killer and having his deeds shown since I don't really consider him a mage anymore at that point but a deranged lunatic that needs to be killed, magic or no magic.

Yeah, I can agree with most of that.  I constantly mention Quentin the serial killer because I think you're right.  He's a deranged person that needs to be taken down because he's a crazy person that likes to kill older women.  However that game itself makes a huge hairy deal over the fact he was a mage and the writers very obviously and ham-fistedly (IMHO) try to use this to make you hate all magic.  Not only is it one of Hawke's possible lines when being comforted afterwords, but Meredith never shuts up about it later.

-Polaris

I thought it was good they gave people the option to say that, rather than force players who maybe wanted their hawke to express a more bitter view onto the more tolerant path when they didn't want to.

And meredith I figured was doing what any other political head of an orginization does, use whatever evidence, no matter how loose, to justify what they are doing and who they are abusing.

[IanPolaris]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How about we both hope that bioware has more subtle approach to both sides when it comes to inquisition. Though I don't mind the serial killer and having his deeds shown since I don't really consider him a mage anymore at that point but a deranged lunatic that needs to be killed, magic or no magic.

Yeah, I can agree with most of that.  I constantly mention Quentin the serial killer because I think you're right.  He's a deranged person that needs to be taken down because he's a crazy person that likes to kill older women.  However that game itself makes a huge hairy deal over the fact he was a mage and the writers very obviously and ham-fistedly (IMHO) try to use this to make you hate all magic.  Not only is it one of Hawke's possible lines when being comforted afterwords, but Meredith never shuts up about it later.

-Polaris

I thought it was good they gave people the option to say that, rather than force players who maybe wanted their hawke to express a more bitter view onto the more tolerant path when they didn't want to.

And meredith I figured was doing what any other political head of an orginization does, use whatever evidence, no matter how loose, to justify what they are doing and who they are abusing.

I suppose, but the entire Frankenmommy thing was so overblown and frankly I thought contrived and heavy handed.  That's what really grinds my gears about that particular mission...and it's a mission that everyone has to do as well.  I still think it's inherently one sided since we don't have something that shows Templars in a similiar light that also can not be avoided.  [I am not saying such a mission should exist either.  I would have made the Quentin mission a LOT less heavy handed.]

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They were probably defeated using arts that the Chantry's Templars are scared of. Don't forget that the Chantry is also afraid that the mages will force the White Chantry's lands to their will if they are not controlled, which while cynical is backed up by Tarohne's actions.

It's not just cynical and more than a little hypocritical, but it also seems to be wrong.  If mind-control magic were really as easy as all that, then the entire world would have been controlled by a handful of mind-controlling abominations in Tevinter, and there would have been no chance of rebellion and no Andraste or anything else.

While mindcontrol is a powerful (and dangerous) tool [which should almost certainly be strongly regulated and outright illegal for most...read 95%+...of mages], it's clearly not the boogyman the Chantry would have you think.

-Polaris

I do not believe anyone has ever claimed that blood mages can control literally everyone on the planet. (Really, that's like something out of a Shark-Jumped Shonen manga!) Cullen does mention controlling a king's mind, or a Grand Cleric's mind, and Tarohne seems to think she can take over Kirkwall using demons. But when has there ever been any evidence that mages can mind control everyone? When has anyone ever suggested that anything resembling that is possible?

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

We never actually SEE him do anything wrong.  Contrast that with Tarhone, and Quentin (Frankenmommy)

-Polaris

We see him with a mage at his mercy, telling her all the terrible things he's going to do to her. How much more are we supposed to see to get the picture? How do Tarohne and Quentin show more? We don't see her putting demons into people, or Quentin hacking your mom to pieces and stitching her head onto another woman's body. Only the end result. What would be the equivalent for Alrik? Meet mages already tranquilized and otherwise abused?

We do see and have to engage/fight your own mother that has been brutally stiched together from other corpses.  We do see Idunna try to take you over with bloodmagic.  We do catch Gascard red-handed in mid-kidnap.  The answer IMHO should have been to throw a lot less insane mages at us, and imply rather than show.  Franken-mommy in particular was an utter fail.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I do not believe anyone has ever claimed that blood mages can control literally everyone on the planet. (Really, that's like something out of a Shark-Jumped Shonen manga!) Cullen does mention controlling a king's mind, or a Grand Cleric's mind, and Tarohne seems to think she can take over Kirkwall using demons. But when has there ever been any evidence that mages can mind control everyone? When has anyone ever suggested that anything resembling that is possible?

Yes, but even in the limited case of controlling a King or a Grand Cleric, where's the evidence for this?  You would think that there would be a lot of cases in old Tevinter (and maybe even in modern Tevinter) where a mage with mind-control magic would at least try this, but we don't see any evidence for this...and after a thousand years we really should have (at least in Tevinter if nowhere else).

That tells me that mind-control is a lot more limited than the Chantry/Cullen would have us think (or perhaps even believe themselves).  Idunna for example seems to be able to engage in short term mind-control (like the Bloodslave spell), but it only seems to work for a very limited time, and only on one person at a time.  (Idunna does seem to have suggestion magic which is stronger than this). 

-Polaris

[Bleachrude]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

The modern day circles were created based on the circle of magi of ancient tevinter...not sure why you think the circles are a chantry creation when the game tells you that the chantry copied its structure from tevinter records

This flatly contradicts the official game lore (read Codex Entry: History of the Circle and Codex Histories: History of the Chantry).

I challenge this.  Citation Needed.  In fact the Codex Entry: History of the Circle flat out tells us that the Chantry Circles represented a seperation of mages from the general population for the first time in history.

-Polaris

Tevinter Imperium

The land was at first ruled by a dynasty of kings.[11]
Circles of Magi formed in Tevinter cities as closed societies of mages,
presumably to train and study their talents. They formed a council of
their most talented mages, the Court of Magisters, which convened in
Minrathous and decided the mandate of magic in the kingdom

Citation given.

re: Balanced view
I think also we're coming from a modern day viewpoint in how we would treat people...one of the arguments against the Chantry/circles is that if abominations were so destructive, ancient Tevinter would not have existed. Basically, Bioware hasn't shown that the circle is needed given how "rare| abominations are supposed to be.

The problem with this is that if abominations were THAT common, you wouldn't HAVE a circle being formed AT ALL. Mages would be killed outright as soon as they are discovered and not simply removed from the populace.

People forget that the concept of jail as a punishment in of itself is a MODERN day concept...it's only been around since the 19th century. Prior to that, you were imprisoned either until your trial or to your ACTUAL punishment such as hanging.