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[Lotion Soronarr]

All of which shows that mages need to have special and mandatory training, and that acts of magic should not be treated the same way as mundane acts even if they are otherwise the same crime. I would treat the use of magic as an automatic aggravating factor, and THOSE mages that use their magic criminally should be locked away and locked away very security (if not outright killed in some cases).

That does not justify putting all mages into what amounts to concentration camps though.

Yes it does.

[GodWood]

IanPolaris wrote...
That does not justify putting all mages into what amounts to concentration camps though.

-Polaris

It's at this point you realize arguing with Polaris is a fruitless exercise.

[Vortex13]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

All of which shows that mages need to have special and mandatory training, and that acts of magic should not be treated the same way as mundane acts even if they are otherwise the same crime. I would treat the use of magic as an automatic aggravating factor, and THOSE mages that use their magic criminally should be locked away and locked away very security (if not outright killed in some cases).

That does not justify putting all mages into what amounts to concentration camps though.

Yes it does.

The concentration camp comparison doesn't really fit into this discussion; we aren't dealing with the same thing here.

I don't agree with the opinion that Mutant Registration Act (Marvel comics) or the Circle equals a WW2 concentration camp. The MRA and the Circle are based on legitimate danger posed by a person being able to flatten a city block with their mind. The Greman concentration camps were based on racism and hatred. If a Jewish person could shoot fire out of their hands or melt a person's face off by looking at them, then yes the comparison would be valid, but not when one is dealing with super powered beings and the other is propaganda and racism.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

A: There are no kings in modern Tevinter except the mages, and all the Grand Clerics in Tevinter answer to a mage themselves.
B: We haven't seen enough of Modern Tevinter to know whether they try this on each other, apparently though its stated in World of Thedas they all have some degree of blood magic, so why not?
C: That's not the only thing a blood mage who would take control of a kingdom has, especially if he's not working alone.

So why aren't all the other nations Tevinter puppets if it were that easy?  My guess is that it isn't that easy.

-Polaris

For reasons other than the fact that nobody in his right mind would meet with a Tevinter diplomat without a full complement of Templars and the Litany of Adralla handy, you mean?

And I don't think you've answered C, either.

You mean like how alistar did?

And remember, a magister saved varric's, isabela's, and alistar's life, along with freeing maric from an endless torment.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 31 mai 2013 - 11:04 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

GodWood wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That does not justify putting all mages into what amounts to concentration camps though.

-Polaris

It's at this point you realize arguing with Polaris is a fruitless exercise.

Hyperbole for everybody.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

So why aren't all the other nations Tevinter puppets if it were that easy?  My guess is that it isn't that easy.

-Polaris

For reasons other than the fact that nobody in his right mind would meet with a Tevinter diplomat without a full complement of Templars and the Litany of Adralla handy, you mean?

And I don't think you've answered C, either.

You mean like how alistar did?

That was a bad idea.

And remember, a magister saved varric's, isabela's, and alistar's life, along with freeing maric from an endless torment.

She is atypical of the ones we've encountered. Nor do we really know how she'd be inclined to treat people who aren't family or family friends.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 31 mai 2013 - 11:25 .

[LobselVith8]

Bleachrude wrote...

Yes they DID segregate as you'll note it say CLOSED society and the fact is that circles are NOT prisons since we have more than 1 example of mages living in the general society (isolde's grandfather, wilhelm).

The VO for the Magi Origin calls it a 'prison'. The mage protagonist can call it a prison. The system is bad enough that some characters outright condemn it as slavery. I'm not sure how you can seriously claim it's not a prison.

Also, your example involves a likely apostate (an illegal mage) and a war hero who lived with his wife and children, the latter of which is strictly prohibited and illegal according to Chantry law and the developers.

Bleachrude wrote...

As well, there doesnt seem to be anything STOPPING families from visiting as Eamon has no trouble visiting and other nobles in lore are mentioned to visit.

One of the most powerful nobles in Ferelden is your example? In contrast, we have Kirkwall mages saying they get beaten if they're caught speaking to civilians, and Ella wasn't permitted to see her mother.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 31 mai 2013 - 11:33 .

[Dave of Canada]

Finn is visited by his family.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He uses the title "Esquire," IIRC. That probably indicates his family is not without influence themselves. I'd also like to note another difference between Connor/Finn and Ella: the country they live in. The Kirkwall mages might be more heavily restricted by their Templars simply because those Templars are commanded by Mere-death.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Finn is visited by his family.

Finn is a special case (and his family is obviously well-to-do) in the most liberal circle in Thedas.  Most mages are cut off from their families and the Chantry takes away children of mages (which is a form of genocide).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

People have stated in the past that Finn's fancy garments would suggest that his family is doing well financially.

Being noble and having the necessary connections to see your family seems to be what those few examples indicate, in contrast to the lack of these privileges for mages like Ella. We also know that some Circles prohibit relationships, and even the right to marry.

[IanPolaris]

Vortex13 wrote...
The concentration camp comparison doesn't really fit into this discussion; we aren't dealing with the same thing here.

I don't agree with the opinion that Mutant Registration Act (Marvel comics) or the Circle equals a WW2 concentration camp. The MRA and the Circle are based on legitimate danger posed by a person being able to flatten a city block with their mind. The Greman concentration camps were based on racism and hatred. If a Jewish person could shoot fire out of their hands or melt a person's face off by looking at them, then yes the comparison would be valid, but not when one is dealing with super powered beings and the other is propaganda and racism.

Acutally the concentration camp is a great analogy.  I know DG hates this one but IMHO that's because it stings, but the same argument that Templar supporters are using now, could (and were) used against Japanese-Americans at the start of WWII, and yes some Japanese Americans (esp in Hawaii) really were Japanese spies and really DID do damage to US National security.

That didn't justify finding the entire ethnic group guilty by association and locking them up.  It's really the same logic that is being used with the mages.  Most mages (or mutents in the Marvel universe) aren't a threat to anyone, and the real rational is a fear of what a few might do, and that really does make it a form of discrimination and concentration camps.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
the Chantry takes away children of mages (which is a form of genocide).

Debatable. According to the U.N, it is genocidal to remove children from one group and having them raised by another. However, if the children of mages are mages themselves, then they are sent to a Circle meaning, they were returned to the group.
If they are non-mages, then they did not belong to the group of their mage parent(s) in the first place.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 juin 2013 - 12:07 .

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I do not remember which of Wynne's lines suggested this, or any source that did. Could you please be more specific?

Sure, you can find the convo (I'll have to reply it...can't find the you-tube video of it off hand) just after you get talking to Orwain and as a one time thing, you can ask what she knows about the Litany of Adralla.  Wynne goes into a long speil, but she tells you that if you use it to interrupt attempted domination by bloodmagic, it not only interrupts that domination attempt but prevents future attempts (ie. grants immunity).

On a gameplay level, this is confirmed (and it has to be this) otherwise the litany would be basically worthless since Uldred could keep on attempting to control the same mages over and over again in the Harrowing Chamber otherwise.  It is implied (but gameplay doesn't support this) that it's primary use would be to prevent the party from being dominated by bloodmagic (i.e. once you use this to protect yourself, you never worry about it again).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
the Chantry takes away children of mages (which is a form of genocide).

Debatable. According to the U.N, it is genocidal to remove children from one group and having them raised by another. However, if the children of mages are mages themselves, then they are sent to a Circle meaning, they were returned to the group.
If they are non-mages, then they did not belong to the group of their mage parent(s) in the first place.

That is still genocide under the UN Defination.  Taking away children from a national/ethnic group to begin with is enough.

-Polaris

[Ianamus]

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
the Chantry takes away children of mages (which is a form of genocide).

Debatable. According to the U.N, it is genocidal to remove children from one group and having them raised by another. However, if the children of mages are mages themselves, then they are sent to a Circle meaning, they were returned to the group.
If they are non-mages, then they did not belong to the group of their mage parent(s) in the first place.

That is still genocide under the UN Defination.  Taking away children from a national/ethnic group to begin with is enough.

-Polaris

Mages aren't an national/ethnic group though. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

The VO for the Magi Origin calls it a 'prison'. The mage protagonist can call it a prison. The system is bad enough that some characters outright condemn it as slavery. I'm not sure how you can seriously claim it's not a prison.

The closest real-world parallel I think of is a mental asylum.

Modifié par EJ107, 01 juin 2013 - 12:15 .

[Lavaeolus]

MisterJB wrote...

However, if the children of mages are mages themselves, then they are sent to a Circle meaning, they were returned to the group.

Not immediately, and possibly to another Circle. At any rate, they lose out on the chance to raise their child, and may not see them ever again.

Although, I'm not sure exactly what the Circle's stance on mages' children is, I will admit.

If they are non-mages, then they did not belong to the group of their mage parent(s) in the first place.

A mage can ooh-lah-lah with a non-mage and produce a non-mage. Be pretty rare for a mage to even meet a non-mage, though. Probably wouldn't fit under "genocide", but would be pretty sad for the parents.

Not sure if two mages can make a non-mage. Probably not, but eh.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 01 juin 2013 - 12:16 .

[IanPolaris]

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
the Chantry takes away children of mages (which is a form of genocide).

Debatable. According to the U.N, it is genocidal to remove children from one group and having them raised by another. However, if the children of mages are mages themselves, then they are sent to a Circle meaning, they were returned to the group.
If they are non-mages, then they did not belong to the group of their mage parent(s) in the first place.

That is still genocide under the UN Defination.  Taking away children from a national/ethnic group to begin with is enough.

-Polaris

Mages aren't an national/ethnic group though. 

Are mages treated as a seperate group by both themselves and others?  Yes.  Under the UN definition they'd qualify.  

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
That is still genocide under the UN Defination.  Taking away children from a national/ethnic group to begin with is enough.

Mages are neither. The presence of magic does not create a different nationality or ethnicity.
The presence of magic does make mages a distinct group from non-mages but, as I've explained, per orders of the Chantry, the offspring of magi will either be returned to the Circle if they are mages; meaning they were returned to the group which means it is not genocide; or, if they are non-mages, they did not belong to the group of their parent(s) and thus, taking the children away from them can't be considered an act of genocide against the magi group.

[IanPolaris]

EJ107 wrote...

The closest real-world parallel I think of is a mental asylum.

classic mental asylums have also been discontinued for the most part because of many of the same problems and abuses we see in the fictional circle system.  To be sure there are mental health hospitals with long term care, but to be locked away in one against your will, you have to have done something that proves you are a danger to yourself and others.

By and large psychiatry strongly frowns on long term in-patient care except for the most extreme cases.  This is a big change that actually happened within my lifetime.  Much of what our traditional fiction regards as 'insane aslyms' is now badly dated and wrong.

-Polaris

[Ianamus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Are mages treated as a seperate group by both themselves and others?  Yes.  Under the UN definition they'd qualify.  

-Polaris

So women and men are both ethnic groups?

Modifié par EJ107, 01 juin 2013 - 12:22 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That is still genocide under the UN Defination.  Taking away children from a national/ethnic group to begin with is enough.

Mages are neither. The presence of magic does not create a different nationality or ethnicity.
The presence of magic does make mages a distinct group from non-mages but, as I've explained, per orders of the Chantry, the offspring of magi will either be returned to the Circle if they are mages; meaning they were returned to the group which means it is not genocide; or, if they are non-mages, they did not belong to the group of their parent(s) and thus, taking the children away from them can't be considered an act of genocide against the magi group.

Yes it does.  Mages follow different laws, and self identify as mages (and others identify themselves that way as well).  That is enough to qualify them as a distinct group for the purposes of the crime of genocide.  You don't get to evade this on an attempted technicality.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

EJ107 wrote...

Mages aren't a national/ethic group though.

We have mages who address that mages in general are their people by virtue of possessing magical ability. In the world of Thedas, these people seem to be tied together by the common characteristic of having magical abilities. The Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden, First Enchanter Irving, and Circle mage Bethany can refer to the mages as their people. By their standards, being a mage makes other mages one of their people.

[IanPolaris]

EJ107 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Are mages treated as a seperate group by both themselves and others?  Yes.  Under the UN definition they'd qualify.  
-Polaris

So women and men are both ethnic groups?

For the purposes of genocide yes.  If a person were to round up and kill all men (or women) in a certain geographic area, then it would qualify as genocide.  Same if it was 'blue eyed people".  The Hague has been very clear about this because a lot of Serbian defendants tried much the same dodge.

-Polaris

[Tempest_]

It seems to me that there is a fairly healthy balance between good and bad Templars and good and bad mages.

Such is the "greyness" I assume they're going for.

Modifié par Quote the Raven, 01 juin 2013 - 12:30 .