1082 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...

The child is being taken away from a mage group to (presumably) a non-mage group.  That's genocide.  For that matter the practice of taking away children as young as six away from their families (generally non-mages) to be with the mages is also genocide.

If the child proves to be a mage, then they are returned to the mages, their group. If they are not mages, they belong with the non-mages in the first place.
Any child taken to the Circle was a mage, meaning s/he did not belong with his/her non-mages parents.

A page ago, you were arguing mages represented a different group than non-mages. Now, conveniently, they are the same thing.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Well, this thread has both derailed and become contrived. It looks like things have run their course and little else of value is being discussed anymore.

Shall you take your purging now? Or later?

[BlueMagitek]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Well, this thread has both derailed and become contrived. It looks like things have run their course and little else of value is being discussed anymore.

Shall you take your purging now? Or later?

Nonsense, we haven't gotten to if Best Warden made the proper choice at Ostagar or if it was justified or not.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Since when did the Litany actually PERMANENTLY protect against mind control...reading the lore, it only works AT THE TIME of the casting of the mind control spell so you can't get immunized by simply using it beforehand.

The Litany is only effective when used when bloodmagic possession is attempted.  This much is true, but we are ALSO told that it prevents all future attempts and the game play backs this up.

Otherwise the Litany would be nearly worthless.

-Polaris

I found the conversation, and yes, apparently it works something like an immunization. Wynne did not say how long this lasts, so even if it would last the whole meeting (and sure, why not?) we can't know that its permanent. (Though that seems to be something Bleachrude put in your mouth.) Also, you haven't answered my point that mind control isn't even the tip of the iceberg with regards to what a blood mage can do.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 juin 2013 - 01:33 .

[kinderschlager]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Well, this thread has both derailed and become contrived. It looks like things have run their course and little else of value is being discussed anymore.

Shall you take your purging now? Or later?

later, it's fun watching people argue about the inane and totally pointless

[Dabrikishaw]

The mages in this series aren't a fictional species or even have a 'mage" culture. Genocide cannot apply to them.

[IanPolaris]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

The mages in this series aren't a fictional species or even have a 'mage" culture. Genocide cannot apply to them.

The game world clearly treats then as a cultural group (enough for genocide anyway) and modern holocaust/warcrime references abound in DAO, DAA, and DA2, so I think it's a very fair point.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I found the conversation, and yes, apparently it works something like an immunization. Wynne did not say how long this lasts, so even if it would last the whole meeting (and sure, why not?) we can't know that its permanent. (Though that seems to be something Bleachrude put in your mouth.) Also, you haven't answered my point that mind control isn't even the tip of the iceberg with regards to what a blood mage can do.

There are two justifications given by the Templars.  The usual justification that is told to the general public is a vox popular appeal to public safety and that hinges on the supposed 'fact' that any mage can suddenly go gonzo-abomination at the slightest stub of a toe.

I hope you'd agree that this argument is at the very least severely overblown, and there is a strange lack of good data to support this (and the Chantry really should be able to have and get that data).

The other justification usually meant for the more educated, well-to-do, and yes high social classes is the bloodmagic argument.  This is a slightly more refined bit of fear mongering that essentially states, "Well even if mages aren't as overtly dangerous as we want the rank and file to believe, the fact is they can slip their sinister fingers of mind control into you at any time if they use forbidden magic, and soon you would be their slaves."  The problem with this is given the ease of use of the Litany of Adralla, and given how little mind-control we really see at least on a large scale, this threat also seems to be.....exaggerated.

In either case the evidence presented doesn't even come close to justifying a gross loss of basic civil rights to a group of people that (inherently) have done nothing wrong.  That's the basic problem with the entire conflict, and that's why the issue isn't nearly as 'morally grey" as Bioware wants us to think (and why they've had to cheat to make it seem so).

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I found the conversation, and yes, apparently it works something like an immunization. Wynne did not say how long this lasts, so even if it would last the whole meeting (and sure, why not?) we can't know that its permanent. (Though that seems to be something Bleachrude put in your mouth.) Also, you haven't answered my point that mind control isn't even the tip of the iceberg with regards to what a blood mage can do.

There are two justifications given by the Templars.  The usual justification that is told to the general public is a vox popular appeal to public safety and that hinges on the supposed 'fact' that any mage can suddenly go gonzo-abomination at the slightest stub of a toe.

I hope you'd agree that this argument is at the very least severely overblown, and there is a strange lack of good data to support this (and the Chantry really should be able to have and get that data).

The Chantry doesn't argue that it can happen at the slightest stub of the toe. Just that it can happen, that Circle training makes it less likely to happen, and (here is the strongest point, I don't remember you managing to refute it) that its best it happen in an isolated area if its going to happen at all. That's the strongest point for the Circles as a means of controlling abominations: they should be someplace out of the way if they're going to be created.

The other justification usually meant for the more educated, well-to-do, and yes high social classes is the bloodmagic argument.  This is a slightly more refined bit of fear mongering that essentially states, "Well even if mages aren't as overtly dangerous as we want the rank and file to believe, the fact is they can slip their sinister fingers of mind control into you at any time if they use forbidden magic, and soon you would be their slaves."  The problem with this is given the ease of use of the Litany of Adralla, and given how little mind-control we really see at least on a large scale, this threat also seems to be.....exaggerated.

I just re-pointed-out that that's not all a blood mage can do. Even if they're overblowing the danger of mind control (and you are overblowing the usefulness of the Litany, btw, given the limitation on when it can work) there's still the ability to summon demons, boil people alive, and a whole lot of other things blood can do that lyrium either can't or can't as effectively. I do not remember you answering this argument at any point in this thread, and I have raised it repeatedly. In fact, if a mage wants to force a non-mage to do his bidding, blood magic isn't even necessary: Stonefist and Arcane Bolt are not blood magic. 

In either case the evidence presented doesn't even come close to justifying a gross loss of basic civil rights to a group of people that (inherently) have done nothing wrong.  That's the basic problem with the entire conflict, and that's why the issue isn't nearly as 'morally grey" as Bioware wants us to think (and why they've had to cheat to make it seem so).

-Polaris

Given that the people protected are a large majority, that they are powerful enough to be very dangerous if they want to be (and can on occasion be really dangerous against their own will), and that to some extent the mages are safer due to the Circles too, I would argue that it does. This does not justify Ser Alrik, Ser Mettin, or Ser Karras, but it does justify the basic idea of the Circles.

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Given that the people protected are a large majority, that they are powerful enough to be very dangerous if they want to be (and can on occasion be really dangerous against their own will), and that to some extent the mages are safer due to the Circles too, I would argue that it does. This does not justify Ser Alrik, Ser Mettin, or Ser Karras, but it does justify the basic idea of the Circles.

Not if it actually creates more problems than it solves, and I would argue (and the evidence at least strongly suggests) that this is in fact the case.

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Given that the people protected are a large majority, that they are powerful enough to be very dangerous if they want to be (and can on occasion be really dangerous against their own will), and that to some extent the mages are safer due to the Circles too, I would argue that it does. This does not justify Ser Alrik, Ser Mettin, or Ser Karras, but it does justify the basic idea of the Circles.

Not if it actually creates more problems than it solves, and I would argue (and the evidence at least strongly suggests) that this is in fact the case.

-Polaris

It limits the problems of abominations, either by putting them someplace where they're unlikely to be a threat, or by training the mages so they don't become one. It makes it harder for mages to learn blood magic, thus limiting another threat. It prevents mages from using the ordinary abilities of a mage to harm people. You're contending that this is balanced out by the discomfort the mages feel, the fact (really more an assertion) that mages are more likely to turn in the Circle than at home, and the fact that the Templars run it poorly in some cases. The latter does not by itself merit breaking the Circles: it merits reform. Having mages turn in the Circle is a bad thing, but balanced out by the fact that they're doing it outside the general population, even if it happens as often or more often. Further, the Circle offers training to prevent this from happening, which the mage was less likely to have gotten outside. The discomfort mages feel is regrettable, but really most of them were probably not going to be more comfortable outside the Circles: the opposite is more likely, especially for an elf. Besides, the loss of comfort is a small thing next to the dangers magic poses to its wielder and those around him.

(If I missed an argument, feel free to point it out. This is me trying to answer every point you've made all thread; it's almost certainly incomplete.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 juin 2013 - 04:30 .

[kinderschlager]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I found the conversation, and yes, apparently it works something like an immunization. Wynne did not say how long this lasts, so even if it would last the whole meeting (and sure, why not?) we can't know that its permanent. (Though that seems to be something Bleachrude put in your mouth.) Also, you haven't answered my point that mind control isn't even the tip of the iceberg with regards to what a blood mage can do.

There are two justifications given by the Templars.  The usual justification that is told to the general public is a vox popular appeal to public safety and that hinges on the supposed 'fact' that any mage can suddenly go gonzo-abomination at the slightest stub of a toe.

I hope you'd agree that this argument is at the very least severely overblown, and there is a strange lack of good data to support this (and the Chantry really should be able to have and get that data).

The other justification usually meant for the more educated, well-to-do, and yes high social classes is the bloodmagic argument.  This is a slightly more refined bit of fear mongering that essentially states, "Well even if mages aren't as overtly dangerous as we want the rank and file to believe, the fact is they can slip their sinister fingers of mind control into you at any time if they use forbidden magic, and soon you would be their slaves."  The problem with this is given the ease of use of the Litany of Adralla, and given how little mind-control we really see at least on a large scale, this threat also seems to be.....exaggerated.

In either case the evidence presented doesn't even come close to justifying a gross loss of basic civil rights to a group of people that (inherently) have done nothing wrong.  That's the basic problem with the entire conflict, and that's why the issue isn't nearly as 'morally grey" as Bioware wants us to think (and why they've had to cheat to make it seem so).

-Polaris

why i will never support the templars (that and as a dalish elf, i have an axe to grind over the destruction of our second home) can you say tainted ashes?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

kinderschlager wrote...

why i will never support the templars (that and as a dalish elf, i have an axe to grind over the destruction of our second home) can you say tainted ashes?

Funny, my Dalish Elf with an axe to grind took her pinch and left the rest be. She killed Genitivi so that the Chantry couldn't profit by him, of course, but why does being Dalish merit defiling the Ashes of someone who was actually good to the elves?

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Given that the people protected are a large majority, that they are powerful enough to be very dangerous if they want to be (and can on occasion be really dangerous against their own will), and that to some extent the mages are safer due to the Circles too, I would argue that it does. This does not justify Ser Alrik, Ser Mettin, or Ser Karras, but it does justify the basic idea of the Circles.

Not if it actually creates more problems than it solves, and I would argue (and the evidence at least strongly suggests) that this is in fact the case.

-Polaris

It limits the problems of abominations, either by putting them someplace where they're unlikely to be a threat, or by training the mages so they don't become one. It makes it harder for mages to learn blood magic, thus limiting another threat. It prevents mages from using the ordinary abilities of a mage to harm people. You're contending that this is balanced out by the discomfort the mages feel, the fact (really more an assertion) that mages are more likely to turn in the Circle than at home, and the fact that the Templars run it poorly in some cases. The latter does not by itself merit breaking the Circles: it merits reform. Having mages turn in the Circle is a bad thing, but balanced out by the fact that they're doing it outside the general population, even if it happens as often or more often. Further, the Circle offers training to prevent this from happening, which the mage was less likely to have gotten outside. The discomfort mages feel is regrettable, but really most of them were probably not going to be more comfortable outside the Circles: the opposite is more likely, especially for an elf. Besides, the loss of comfort is a small thing next to the dangers magic poses to its wielder and those around him.

(If I missed an argument, feel free to point it out. This is me trying to answer every point you've made all thread; it's almost certainly incomplete.)

You don't have any proof that it limits abominations at all and there is a lot of suggestive evidence that it doesn't.  For a normal mentally healthy person, becoming an abomination is vanishingly rare especially since at some level, the person has to agree to it.  However, put that person into situations of mental distress, generate negative feelings, and anger (or hopelessness) and apparently the rate of abominations and the danger of them go up....WAY up.

To make matters worse, you also tend to discourage young mages from getting the proper training because parents (who will not want to be seperated from their children will want to hide them) and taking children away is a fearful thing on it's own....and THAT means that since finding all the magical children will never be 100% sure, it tends to mean that the mage children that don't make it to the circle are both under (or un)-trained AND mentally distressed AND will want to try to hide any real problems until it's often too late.  See Feynriel in DA2 or even Meredith's own sister (and Thrask's daughter Olivia).

Because of all these factors I outright challenge the notion that the circles in fact reduce the real rates of either abominations or even the rate of deaths/damage by abominations as opposed to other ways of dealing with it.  Even you admit tht the Chantry should have the date to prove the case....but they never have.  This is something I find suspicious.

If you are going to deny an entire group of people basic human and civil rights because of what they are, then you had better have a damned good reason backed up by hard objective and quantatively sound evidence.  The chantry does not and the Templar suppoters keep dodging this demand.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  There is also very little evidence that the circle actually trains it's students to deal with demons at all.  If they did, then why should the Harrowing be a big hairy secret?  Why would the circle forbid the study of demonic lore to actually defend against demons? 

Modifié par IanPolaris, 01 juin 2013 - 05:45 .

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

kinderschlager wrote...

why i will never support the templars (that and as a dalish elf, i have an axe to grind over the destruction of our second home) can you say tainted ashes?

Funny, my Dalish Elf with an axe to grind took her pinch and left the rest be. She killed Genitivi so that the Chantry couldn't profit by him, of course, but why does being Dalish merit defiling the Ashes of someone who was actually good to the elves?

I can see it depending on how bitter your Dalish Warden is.  If you destroy the Ashes, you also destroy a holy relic that the Human Chantry might use to make itself stronger.  If you regard the human chantry as your enemy (and many Dalish do), it's the smart move.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Chantry doesn't argue that it can happen at the slightest stub of the toe. Just that it can happen, that Circle training makes it less likely to happen, and (here is the strongest point, I don't remember you managing to refute it) that its best it happen in an isolated area if its going to happen at all. That's the strongest point for the Circles as a means of controlling abominations: they should be someplace out of the way if they're going to be created.

Sorry but the Chantry does argue this.  Maybe not with the specific phrase, "just because they stubbed their toes", but the Chantry and Templars (and Cullen gives this speech almost word for word) have the party line rational of "Mages can go monster-abomination regardless of skill, experience, training, or anything else just because".  The best evidence we have strongly suggests that this simply isn't true.  A mage at some level has to consent to be possessed (a fact the Templars tend to gloss over if not actively try to hide).

Not only that but look at where the circles are.  Only the Fereldan circle is isolated in a logical place if this were the real reason.  Most other circles are in heavily populated cities, so that tends to discredit this reasoning.

-Polaris

[Sontemuka]

I think ANDERS/JUSTICE will be agree with this post. xD

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Chantry doesn't argue that it can happen at the slightest stub of the toe. Just that it can happen, that Circle training makes it less likely to happen, and (here is the strongest point, I don't remember you managing to refute it) that its best it happen in an isolated area if its going to happen at all. That's the strongest point for the Circles as a means of controlling abominations: they should be someplace out of the way if they're going to be created.

Sorry but the Chantry does argue this.  Maybe not with the specific phrase, "just because they stubbed their toes", but the Chantry and Templars (and Cullen gives this speech almost word for word) have the party line rational of "Mages can go monster-abomination regardless of skill, experience, training, or anything else just because".  The best evidence we have strongly suggests that this simply isn't true.  A mage at some level has to consent to be possessed (a fact the Templars tend to gloss over if not actively try to hide).

We have from the Codex that the First Enchanter of Kirkwall Circle turned, and that she held the demon back so the Templars could take care of the problem. That sounds like a non-con possession to me, and it's not Chantry propaganda: we have it from Orsino.

Not only that but look at where the circles are.  Only the Fereldan circle is isolated in a logical place if this were the real reason.  Most other circles are in heavily populated cities, so that tends to discredit this reasoning.

-Polaris

Then the Knight-Commanders picked stupid places to put them, and that really ought to be changed. The fact remains that at least the abomination turns within sight of a bunch of Templars, and possibly Senior Enchanters. (Also, I remember reading that Kirkwall Circle is on an island, so if you're going to be stupid enough to put a Circle in Kirkwall Of The Nonexistent Veil at least you have that going for you.) And of course this only gets safer if the places are relocated.

IanPolaris wrote...

I can see it depending on how bitter your Dalish Warden is.  If you destroy the Ashes, you also destroy a holy relic that the Human Chantry might use to make itself stronger.  If you regard the human chantry as your enemy (and many Dalish do), it's the smart move.

-Polaris

Yeah, but that's why I killed Genitivi: so that he couldn't tell the Chantry where to find it so that they could become stronger.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 juin 2013 - 06:15 .

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Chantry doesn't argue that it can happen at the slightest stub of the toe. Just that it can happen, that Circle training makes it less likely to happen, and (here is the strongest point, I don't remember you managing to refute it) that its best it happen in an isolated area if its going to happen at all. That's the strongest point for the Circles as a means of controlling abominations: they should be someplace out of the way if they're going to be created.

Sorry but the Chantry does argue this.  Maybe not with the specific phrase, "just because they stubbed their toes", but the Chantry and Templars (and Cullen gives this speech almost word for word) have the party line rational of "Mages can go monster-abomination regardless of skill, experience, training, or anything else just because".  The best evidence we have strongly suggests that this simply isn't true.  A mage at some level has to consent to be possessed (a fact the Templars tend to gloss over if not actively try to hide).

We have from the Codex that the First Enchanter of Kirkwall Circle turned, and that she held the demon back so the Templars could take care of the problem. That sounds like a non-con possession to me, and it's not Chantry propaganda: we have it from Orsino.

Point.  Missing it.  I am not saying that abominations never happen.  What I am saying is that for people with good mental health, they are vanishingly rare.  However, put the same people into situations of hopelessness, anger, emotional distress, ect and the danger goes way up....and given that the circles are prisons, you are actually encouraging the sort of environment that is more likely to make a mage go bad.

I also tend to put an asterisk on any report of this sort coming out of Kirkwall because the Veil there is non-existant.  That changes the rules considerably and makes rates of abominations, failed harrowings, and more far, far higher than elsewhere in Thedas.

Not only does the very environment of the circle encourage those in it to become abominations, but it's very existance tends to encourage parents and scared children to avoid magical training, and try to deny problems until they are too late.  See Feynriel, Olivia, Conner, and even Meredith's sister.  All these can at some level be laid on the feet of the circle system even though none of these mages actually was in the circle.

So it's a lose-lose situation on a pure practical/safety level.

Not only that but look at where the circles are.  Only the Fereldan circle is isolated in a logical place if this were the real reason.  Most other circles are in heavily populated cities, so that tends to discredit this reasoning.

-Polaris

Then the Knight-Commanders picked stupid places to put them, and that really ought to be changed. The fact remains that at least the abomination turns within sight of a bunch of Templars, and possibly Senior Enchanters. (Also, I remember reading that Kirkwall Circle is on an island, so if you're going to be stupid enough to put a Circle in Kirkwall at least you have that going for you.) And of course this only gets safer as the places are relocated.

The Starkaven circle was located in downtown Starkhaven.  The White Spire circle is located in Val Royeux, etc.  This isn't the boneheaded decision of one Knight Commander.  It's a pattern and it's a pattern that tells me that the Chantry itself isn't as worried about containing abominations as they claim.

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It limits the problems of abominations, either by putting them someplace where they're unlikely to be a threat, or by training the mages so they don't become one. It makes it harder for mages to learn blood magic, thus limiting another threat. It prevents mages from using the ordinary abilities of a mage to harm people. You're contending that this is balanced out by the discomfort the mages feel, the fact (really more an assertion) that mages are more likely to turn in the Circle than at home, and the fact that the Templars run it poorly in some cases. The latter does not by itself merit breaking the Circles: it merits reform. Having mages turn in the Circle is a bad thing, but balanced out by the fact that they're doing it outside the general population, even if it happens as often or more often. Further, the Circle offers training to prevent this from happening, which the mage was less likely to have gotten outside. The discomfort mages feel is regrettable, but really most of them were probably not going to be more comfortable outside the Circles: the opposite is more likely, especially for an elf. Besides, the loss of comfort is a small thing next to the dangers magic poses to its wielder and those around him.

(If I missed an argument, feel free to point it out. This is me trying to answer every point you've made all thread; it's almost certainly incomplete.)

You don't have any proof that it limits abominations at all and there is a lot of suggestive evidence that it doesn't.  For a normal mentally healthy person, becoming an abomination is vanishingly rare especially since at some level, the person has to agree to it.  However, put that person into situations of mental distress, generate negative feelings, and anger (or hopelessness) and apparently the rate of abominations and the danger of them go up....WAY up.

That can be mitigated without doing away with the Circle system. Besides which, a mage could easily encounter such circumstances outside the Circle. From the below point, you seem to want to use Connor and Olivia to argue your side. They really don't help your case.

To make matters worse, you also tend to discourage young mages from getting the proper training because parents (who will not want to be seperated from their children will want to hide them) and taking children away is a fearful thing on it's own....and THAT means that since finding all the magical children will never be 100% sure, it tends to mean that the mage children that don't make it to the circle are both under (or un)-trained AND mentally distressed AND will want to try to hide any real problems until it's often too late.  See Feynriel in DA2 or even Meredith's own sister (and Thrask's daughter Olivia).

You don't need to find every single magical child to mitigate the problem. It would be ideal, but as long as most mages are picked up the problem will be mitigated. In addition, there's also apostates who can grant proper training in the community (due to the very fact that the Circle will never be airtight), so a mage can still get proper training outside the Circle. While I don't think that having such groups is as safe as all the mages being in a Circle, the fact remains that apostates can get decent training.

Because of all these factors I outright challenge the notion that the circles in fact reduce the real rates of either abominations or even the rate of deaths/damage by abominations as opposed to other ways of dealing with it.  Even you admit tht the Chantry should have the date to prove the case....but they never have.  This is something I find suspicious.

Thinking about it a little further, I don't know why they'd bother compiling such data. Its not like anyone in-setting can call them on the carpet, really, and at any rate this isn't their only justification. Still, I grant that not having the data makes arguing either your case or mine a little more difficult.

If you are going to deny an entire group of people basic human and civil rights because of what they are, then you had better have a damned good reason backed up by hard objective and quantatively sound evidence.  The chantry does not and the Templar suppoters keep dodging this demand.

-Polaris

I've already pointed out that this is also to prevent the abuse of magic. That's something no statistics can argue away: a mage versus the vast majority of non-mages isn't a fair fight. If a mage wants to take something from a non-mage, including his child, that mage can't really be stopped. Having a Circle doesn't completely solve this problem either, but it mitigates it a lot.

Besides which, you're leaving out my argument that when a mage goes abomination in a Circle, they're surrounded by Templars and other mages. Who is a mage surrounded by when they go abomination in the middle of a city? Town guards at best, and they're really not capable of taking down abominations.

Edit PS:  There is also very little evidence that the circle actually trains it's students to deal with demons at all.  If they did, then why should the Harrowing be a big hairy secret?  Why would the circle forbid the study of demonic lore to actually defend against demons? 

They're protected against forcible posession by their training, judging by the way the game sequence goes. That seems to be half of what the Harrowing tests. (The other half is just not giving in to an obvious trick from a Pride demon.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 juin 2013 - 06:59 .

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That can be mitigated without doing away with the Circle system. Besides which, a mage could easily encounter such circumstances outside the Circle. From the below point, you seem to want to use Connor and Olivia to argue your side. They really don't help your case.

The burden of proof is on you.  You have to SHOW that a system that is inherently reprehensible actually works and it's success is better than any other alternate way of dealing with the problem.  Don't handwave it.  PROVE IT.  You yourself have said that the Chantry should have the data to do so.  Where is it?

Conner, Olivia, and even Meredith's sister absolutely help me case.  Why didn't they get trained?  Because their parents were afraid of what would happen to them.  Why were the parents afraid?  Well it turns out it's for pretty darned good reasons starting with no parent wants to let go of their children.  That by itself is morally reprehensible. 

However, because the chantry has made it so that the only legal source of education in magic is in prison, you are essentially forcing parents to either hide their children and let them grow up untrained which everyone agrees is dangerous, or force them into what amounts to slavery in a prison where they may (and likely won't) ever see their children again.  Without the circle system, Conner and Olivia get trained openly and almost certainly do NOT become abominations.  The same thing applies to Meredith's sister too.

Don't claim the circle system works.  PROVE IT.

You don't need to find every single magical child to mitigate the problem. It would be ideal, but as long as most mages are picked up the problem will be mitigated. In addition, there's also apostates who can grant proper training in the community (due to the very fact that the Circle will never be airtight), so a mage can still get proper training outside the Circle. While I don't think that having such groups is as safe as all the mages being in a Circle, the fact remains that apostates can get decent training.

In order for the circle system to work (setting aside the moral and ethical issues), you need to show the following:

1.  That enough mages are sent to the circle to offset the greatly increased risk of abominations from those mages you miss that will almost certainly grow up untrained.

2.  That the abomination rate within the circle isn't so high, that the abominations that do escapte the circle when combined with the native abomination increase from point 1 doesn't exceed what would have been the background total.

This needs to be PROVEN.  You don't get to say "it's obvious".  I'm not buying it.

Thinking about it a little further, I don't know why they'd bother compiling such data. Its not like anyone in-setting can call them on the carpet, really, and at any rate this isn't their only justification. Still, I grant that not having the data makes arguing either your case or mine a little more difficult.

I can.  Several reasons.

1.  If my suspiciouns are wrong, and it is more effective then the Templars can go to their critics and say, "Look.  I know it's ugly, but it works and we can prove it.  Then they lay out the numbers.  Such a thing would almost certainly silence most critics even within the circles.

2.  Quality Control.  Keeping track of such data would allow the Templars and Chantry (and Circles) to know which places are trouble spots (like Kirkwall) and what techniques work and what don't.

3.  General record keeping.  It's good to be able to keep track of mages if you really think they are that dangerous (and this is a point I don't dispute even in general). Edit: To clarify, the point I am not disputing is that it's a good idea to keep track of those with magical talent.

I've already pointed out that this is also to prevent the abuse of magic. That's something no statistics can argue away: a mage versus the vast majority of non-mages isn't a fair fight. If a mage wants to take something from a non-mage, including his child, that mage can't really be stopped. Having a Circle doesn't completely solve this problem either, but it mitigates it a lot.

Actually for most mages it isn't a fair fight.  It favors the mundanes.  Very few mages are actually powerful enough to face mundanes in a fair fight.  This is something that Wynne of all people point out.  You also don't show or even try to suggest that there aren't better and more human ways to integrate magic into society as a whole.  It's the circle system or nothing apparently to you.  I deny this.

Besides which, you're leaving out my argument that when a mage goes abomination in a Circle, they're surrounded by Templars and other mages. Who is a mage surrounded by when they go abomination in the middle of a city? Town guards at best, and they're really not capable of taking down abominations.

Nope. I am factoring it.  It's the difference in rate that matters.  This is why I am accusing you (and others) of claiming "it's obvious" when it really isn't.   Even if this one factor might decrease the rate of abominations, if the other factors increase them enough, then the circle system actually makes things worse and not better.  Not only that but you are also putting innocents in danger by putting them in an environment that is far, far more likely to be slaughtered by an abomination.

Edit PS:  There is also very little evidence that the circle actually trains it's students to deal with demons at all.  If they did, then why should the Harrowing be a big hairy secret?  Why would the circle forbid the study of demonic lore to actually defend against demons? 

They're protected against forcible posession by their training, judging by the way the game sequence goes. That seems to be half of what the Harrowing tests. (The other half is just not giving in to an obvious trick from a Pride demon.)

Prove it.  The game sequence actually suggest the opposite.  If resisting demon posession were really part of your training, then why would the Harrowing be a secret?  Why would adult apostates that are sent to the circle be sent to do their harrowing within a day?  (Something we know that happened to Bethany...the Templars tried to kill her.)  Why would Wilhelm of Honnleth complain that the Chantry doesn't permit any real reserach into Demons leaving mages helpless against them.

Again, I don't buy it.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 01 juin 2013 - 08:05 .

[DKJaigen]

I've already pointed out that this is also to prevent the abuse of
magic. That's something no statistics can argue away: a mage versus the
vast majority of non-mages isn't a fair fight. If a mage wants to take
something from a non-mage, including his child, that mage can't really
be stopped. Having a Circle doesn't completely solve this problem
either, but it mitigates it a lot.

Besides which, you're leaving
out my argument that when a mage goes abomination in a Circle, they're
surrounded by Templars and other mages. Who is a mage surrounded by when
they go abomination in the middle of a city? Town guards at best, and
they're really not capable of taking down abominations.

Templars are about as usefull as city guards in that regard. They cannot handle demons and abominations. look at the fereldan tower and see how easily the templars where slaughterd or the many other cases the templars fail when demons and abominations are involved. this is logical of course because simply put most templars are only trained to deal with circle mages but anything outside that narrow specialisation is something they cannot handle.

Mages are of course better at this but if they get overwhelmed as well then your in some deep ****. because the demons suddenly have plenty of mages or mage corpses they can possess. an abomination army is far worse then a couple of death civilians each year it simply a risk you need to deal with.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 01 juin 2013 - 09:15 .

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

In order for the circle system to work (setting aside the moral and ethical issues), you need to show the following:

1.  That enough mages are sent to the circle to offset the greatly increased risk of abominations from those mages you miss that will almost certainly grow up untrained.

2.  That the abomination rate within the circle isn't so high, that the abominations that do escapte the circle when combined with the native abomination increase from point 1 doesn't exceed what would have been the background total.

This needs to be PROVEN.  You don't get to say "it's obvious".  I'm not buying it.

Mind you, while this information might (or might not) exist (in an incomplete form since i expect that lots of these records have been destroyed in the various annulments and mage revolts over the years) that does not mean there are any tools to parse the information. Statistics is a very modern thing in our world and if Thedas is alike in this regard (and we've seen no indication that it isn't) then it's very well possible that all the templars got his a huge pile of indident reports lying and gathering dust in a library somewhere.

Also... remember that even if the circles cannot be objectivibly defended, there's also a burden of proof on advocating dismantling it to prove that it's removal won't have negative consequences. So really, both sides have a burden of proof on them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No no, Polaris only speaks truth, and shall never have to back up any claims he makes. Such is the word of thine lord!

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

I've already pointed out that this is also to prevent the abuse of
magic. That's something no statistics can argue away: a mage versus the
vast majority of non-mages isn't a fair fight. If a mage wants to take
something from a non-mage, including his child, that mage can't really
be stopped. Having a Circle doesn't completely solve this problem
either, but it mitigates it a lot.

Besides which, you're leaving
out my argument that when a mage goes abomination in a Circle, they're
surrounded by Templars and other mages. Who is a mage surrounded by when
they go abomination in the middle of a city? Town guards at best, and
they're really not capable of taking down abominations.

Templars are about as usefull as city guards in that regard. They cannot handle demons and abominations. look at the fereldan tower and see how easily the templars where slaughterd or the many other cases the templars fail when demons and abominations are involved. this is logical of course because simply put most templars are only trained to deal with circle mages but anything outside that narrow specialisation is something they cannot handle.

Mages are of course better at this but if they get overwhelmed as well then your in some deep ****. because the demons suddenly have plenty of mages or mage corpses they can possess. an abomination army is far worse then a couple of death civilians each year it simply a risk you need to deal with.

Uhm, if you take into account the Pride Demon codex entry, all Templars do get trainning on how to fight demons and abominations. They don't however get trainning, at fighting an entire army of abominations, who unexpectedly attacks. The Ferelden Circle is not an example of Templar failure, since they did manage to contain the situation.
Mages on the other hand, are the absolute worst thing you can send to fight a demon or abomination, since if they fail, you will just have empowered the demon or abomination. There is also the fact that the mage got no specialized spells, that are extra effective against demons or anything like that.