1082 réponses à ce sujet

[Lt_Riley]

Mr.House wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Semantics. Alistair has all the abilities of a templar, making him a templar and he frequently refers to himself as a ex-templar. Also Mae isn't good, she's a back stabber.

I'm sorry that Gaider refused to paint all mages as innocent butterflies who just want freedom and not power.

???

[GreyLycanTrope]

Ravensword wrote...

Seraph Cross wrote...

The real problem is that there isn't enough moral grayness on both sides. There are too many close minded zealots on the templar side. While the mages have too many blood mages.

There also aren't enough morally grey blood mage NPCs. They're all a bunch of twisted psychopaths.

Bloodmagic does tend to make people looney, very few of the mages don't get drunk on their own power. Jowan's and Merril are probably the best examples of bloodmages who don't go power hungry.

[Lulupab]

Well David Gaider made it obvious that Circle has failed. Even if Templars were indeed good guys (which I think they really are not except a few of them, personal opinion) they must find a better way to police the mages. The condition of some circles were just unacceptable. Not being able to see relatives or family or simply friends is just outrageous. You can only send letters if you have Templar friends or your family is nobility. Every other right is stripped from them in the eyes of the maker.

[dunstan1993]

There's an elephant in the room, anyone want to hazard a guess as to what it is?

[MisterJB]

Mr.House wrote...
Yes she broke her duty, but she did it so important reasrech that does deserve to be knowen was surfaced. Like Cullen, she is a bad templar because they did rebel against their CO but they did it for reasons that where right. Also remeber, this conflict would have not gotten so far had it not been for Adrian.

Adrian was certainly the worst instigator of the entire ordeal and, without her, the war may not have happened at all. I also freely admit that Lambert, the High Seeker and thus leader of the faction I support, acted recklessly and also helped start it.
But I won't consider starting a world conflict which will bring untold suffering for the sake of the mages to be the "right reasons".
That research is, mostly, worthless anyway. There is no real reason why Tranquility should be reversed. All Tranquils, with the exception of Alrik's victims, were made so for a good reason. Because they were too dangerous.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 mai 2013 - 09:12 .

[Lt_Riley]

IanPolaris wrote...

M25105 wrote...

I thought the Templars were the bad guys.

As far as I am concerned, they are (more or less...there is no reason why you can't have good individual templars of course).

I think the fundamental problem is this.  DG wanted to set up a "morally grey" conflict between freedom and security when he was first making the DA universe.  Such a tension was a very common theme in fiction immediately post 9/11.

The problem is that what DG (and apparently BW as a whole) thought was morally grey really wasn't, and instead of simply accepting that and rolling with it, the first impulse seems to have been to slant and slime one side so that the choice appears to be "greyer" than it really is.  We already know that BW has admitted that one of the reasons why the mages were presented so unfairly in DA2 was because (in the eyes of the BW writers) too many people were siding with mages in DAO.  Guess what?  Most people still side with the mages even in DA2.

That's my take anyways.

-Polaris

That's my op.

[The Hierophant]

Lt_Riley wrote...

I've just finished reading until we sleep #3 and I have to say Mr. Gaider; I am not happy with the way mages were portrayed as demonic worshippers who enslaved mankind, commanded legions of demon underlings and had dragon sentinels frying anyone who got out of line; while the templar in shining armor was praised as the grand hero for putting the evil mages down like animals to restore peace & justice. Why is it always painted this way?

Did you even read the codex entries on the Tevinter Imperium before reading the comics? The Tevinter were depicted as an imperialistic nation that was built on the backs of slaves since DAO dropped  in 2009. Complaining about the Imperium's negative portrayal now is like complaining about Darth Sidious being a tyrant years after watching all the Star Wars films.

Plus the Templars had intentional negative portrayals too. Just because there are mages who are evil doesn't mean that the abuse of the innocent by Templars like Alrik was depicted as justifiable or ok by the writers.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 30 mai 2013 - 09:16 .

[Nole]

I sided with the templars in DA:O and DA2, and will do the same in DA3.

[Fast Jimmy]

dunstan1993 wrote...

There's an elephant in the room, anyone want to hazard a guess as to what it is?

Anders make things go boom?

[DatOneFanboy]

WittingEight65 wrote...

I sided with the templars in DA:O and DA2, and will do the same in DA3.

how does one side with templars in a game where u cant side with templars, DA:O. oh u mean u killed all the mages for cullen i see.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I love how entirely wrong the OP is, tis hilarious.

[Mr.House]

MisterJB wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Yes she broke her duty, but she did it so important reasrech that does deserve to be knowen was surfaced. Like Cullen, she is a bad templar because they did rebel against their CO but they did it for reasons that where right. Also remeber, this conflict would have not gotten so far had it not been for Adrian.

Adrian was certainly the worst instigator of the entire ordeal and, without her, the war may not have happened at all. I also freely admit that Lambert, the High Seeker and thus leader of the faction I support, acted recklessly and also helped start it.
But I won't consider starting a world conflict which will bring untold suffering for the sake of the mages to be the "right reasons".
That research is, mostly, worthless anyway. There is no real reason why Tranquility should be reversed. All Tranquils, with the exception of Alrik's victims, were made so for a good reason. Because they were too dangerous.

That's the thing though, we don't know how many times it as been abused like that which is why the resreach was given to find an alternative to it, sadly he only found a way to cure it which was at that time important. Even templers admit tranquility is horrible because of it's cost and if there was a better alternative it should be used. The resreach is useless now thanks to Lambert and Andrian which ment all that sacerfice is now in vain.

[Nole]

DatOneFanboy wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I sided with the templars in DA:O and DA2, and will do the same in DA3.

how does one side with templars in a game where u cant side with templars, DA:O. oh u mean u killed all the mages for cullen i see.

Of course I killed them all.

[dunstan1993]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

dunstan1993 wrote...

There's an elephant in the room, anyone want to hazard a guess as to what it is?

Anders make things go boom?

What did Anders make go boom Jimmy, come on you're nearly there!

[Seboist]

WittingEight65 wrote...

DatOneFanboy wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I sided with the templars in DA:O and DA2, and will do the same in DA3.

how does one side with templars in a game where u cant side with templars, DA:O. oh u mean u killed all the mages for cullen i see.

Of course I killed them all.

As Anderson would say, "you did good son".

Modifié par Seboist, 30 mai 2013 - 09:21 .

[Nole]

Seboist wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

DatOneFanboy wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I sided with the templars in DA:O and DA2, and will do the same in DA3.

how does one side with templars in a game where u cant side with templars, DA:O. oh u mean u killed all the mages for cullen i see.

Of course I killed them all.

as Anderson would say, "you did good son".

We destroy them, or they destroy us.

[Fast Jimmy]

dunstan1993 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

dunstan1993 wrote...

There's an elephant in the room, anyone want to hazard a guess as to what it is?

Anders make things go boom?

What did Anders make go boom Jimmy, come on you're nearly there!

...all I wanna do is a zoom-zoom-zoom in the boom-boom?

Just shake your rump...?

[IanPolaris]

WittingEight65 wrote...

We destroy them, or they destroy us.

If we were talking about Darkspawn, I'd agree.  It's why I kill the architect every time.  However, there have been mages for as long as there have been humans and elves (and perhaps even longer depending on how much magic the High Dragons have)....yes mundane people evolved and formed civilizations.  That tells me that mages, even mages as part of society, aren't nearly as deadly and dangerous and problematic as some would have us believe.

It's also a moot point now.  The Circle system is dead.  It is never coming back.  The mages won't tolerate it, and the Templars will never agree that it's sufficient.

-Polaris

[Scarlet Rabbi]

If Templars have the power (as they did up until the end of DA2), then it sucks for mages. No getting around that. Some Templars are doubtless xenophobic monsters, and will abuse their power and the people they reign over. But the rest of the non-magic, majority population is at least midly safe from the most depraved magic out there, and the destruction one corrupt mage could unleash would make 100 crooked Templars look like saints.

On the other hand, without Templars, another Imperium could and will rise up, with world domination easily at their fingertips. This issue isn't simple, and isn't black and white; but to me, one side is clearly the logical choice.

Situations like the mage/Templar one in Kirkwall are hard to stomach, especially with mages being tortured, sexually assualted and even outright murdered by a minority of Templars, but what is the Alternative? Look at Grace, the mage in DA2. Even if you free her, she will still be after your blood in Act 3. And the harsh reality is that one angry blood mage is more frieghtning and much more capable of wreaking havoc than an entire army of Templars. Freedom is a noble idea, but when magic is involved you must attend to reality and push emotions aside.

I mean, what's wose? A Templar who has a bad day and takes it out on a defenseless mage, perhaps killing them in process, or a mage who has a bad day and blows up a building full of innocent people, most of them passive, female priests?

[Nole]

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

We destroy them, or they destroy us.

If we were talking about Darkspawn, I'd agree.  It's why I kill the architect every time.  However, there have been mages for as long as there have been humans and elves (and perhaps even longer depending on how much magic the High Dragons have)....yes mundane people evolved and formed civilizations.  That tells me that mages, even mages as part of society, aren't nearly as deadly and dangerous and problematic as some would have us believe.

It's also a moot point now.  The Circle system is dead.  It is never coming back.  The mages won't tolerate it, and the Templars will never agree that it's sufficient.

-Polaris

The templars were incompetents. If I have the chance of create a new order to rule the mages in DA3 I'll do it.

[IanPolaris]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

On the other hand, without Templars, another Imperium could and will rise up, with world domination easily at their fingertips. This issue isn't simple, and isn't black and white; but to me, one side is clearly the logical choice.

This is a false dichotomy.  If it were that easy, then Tevinter would never have fallen, and bloodmage mind-controlling magisters would control everyone with no hope of rebellion.  Sure SOME mages will be power hungry bastards, but that's no different than anyone else. 

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

WittingEight65 wrote...

The templars were incompetents. If I have the chance of create a new order to rule the mages in DA3 I'll do it.

Sure, I can even guess what your solution would be:  Kill everyone with magic in their family.  The maker will know his own.

Nice.

-Polaris

[Seboist]

WittingEight65 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

DatOneFanboy wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I sided with the templars in DA:O and DA2, and will do the same in DA3.

how does one side with templars in a game where u cant side with templars, DA:O. oh u mean u killed all the mages for cullen i see.

Of course I killed them all.

as Anderson would say, "you did good son".

We destroy them, or they destroy us.

After seeing what a mage did to Hawke's mum and with Orsino's complicity there was no doubt in my mind that the only good mage is a dead or tranquil one.  I didn't even have a second thought with regards to handing over Bethany to Meredith.