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Please stop portraying templars as heroes and free mages as villians * Major spoilers*


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#501
LobselVith8

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BlueMagitek wrote...

If you all say so.  


Your participation in so many mage and templar threads does make me wonder why you felt the need to call Ian out for participating in similar topics of discussion. The only difference is that Ian shares a different point of view than you on some issues; namely, the mages and the templars.

BlueMagitek wrote...

The point remains that the downtrodden of Thedas (read: everyone not a mage, wealthy merchant or noble) do not have pleasant lives, and there seems to be a bit of dissonance between what, shall we call, complete freedom from Circles and how Thedas actually is.


I'm not sure I understand why the plight of the downtrodden people across Thedas has to do with the Chantry controlled Circles being toxic enviornments that some of us strongly condemn. Are you saying that since things are bad for some people living in the impoverished parts of Thedas, that makes it okay that templars had the legal right to dominate mages in the Chantry controlled Circles, or that the Chantry of Andraste used religion for nearly a thousand years to force mages into submission?

Everyone has their opinion on the matter. I find the Chantry controlled Circles to be revolting and horrific, and I think what has been done to mages for almost a millennia is morally repugnant. It's as simple as that. My view carried over into how I played my characters. My Surana Warden aided the Mages Collective and asked for his people to be given their independence. My apostate Hawke helped the mage underground and told Anders that the templars needed to be overthrown. I'm certain the actions of my protagonists run in contrast to yours, since I'm sure your characters aided the templars and the Chantry.

BlueMagitek wrote...

The only time I see any ideas about improved lives for other peoples are the Dalish. At the very least, there does not appear to be even a tenth of discussion about the normal, common people of Thedas and how their rights are oft squashed.


If you think the topic warrants discussion, why not make a thread about their plight?

#502
BlueMagitek

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Your participation in so many mage and templar threads does make me wonder why you felt the need to call Ian out for participating in similar topics of discussion. The only difference is that Ian shares a different point of view than you on some issues; namely, the mages and the templars.
B
I'm not sure I understand why the plight of the downtrodden people across Thedas has to do with the Chantry controlled Circles being toxic enviornments that some of us strongly condemn. Are you saying that since things are bad for some people living in the impoverished parts of Thedas, that makes it okay that templars had the legal right to dominate mages in the Chantry controlled Circles, or that the Chantry of Andraste used religion for nearly a thousand years to force mages into submission?

Everyone has their opinion on the matter. I find the Chantry controlled Circles to be revolting and horrific, and I think what has been done to mages for almost a millennia is morally repugnant. It's as simple as that. My view carried over into how I played my characters. My Surana Warden aided the Mages Collective and asked for his people to be given their independence. My apostate Hawke helped the mage underground and told Anders that the templars needed to be overthrown. I'm certain the actions of my protagonists run in contrast to yours, since I'm sure your characters aided the templars and the Chantry.

If you think the topic warrants discussion, why not make a thread about their plight?


Oh no, Ian and I want the same thing, he just has a different way of showing it. :wizard:

I understand that you allow your personal bias to influence your decisions, and I'm very sorry that you do.

What does it have to do with the Chantry?  Because, you're focusing on a small percentage of the population who are much better off than most of Thedas.  I'm so sorry that the mages, with supernatural abilities, do not appear to pay taxes, have their own republic system of government, have enforcable rights (a Chevalier can get away with raping a person, a Templar, in most situations, has to answer to their superior and the Chantry, Harrowed Mages cannot be made tranquil, etc), get to study, have protection from bandits, don't need to answer to Lords or the Chantry, etc.  The vast, vast majority of Thedas don't have anything like that, but all anyone seems to focus on is how awful it is for Circle mages. 

If you haven't noticed, the past four topics or so I've made tend to be either ignored or fall into obscurity quickly. :wizard:

#503
LobselVith8

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Bleachrude wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

The mages are not permitted to ever contact their families and friends, they are completely cut off from their life and basically wiped from that record (such as never being able to hold titles and treated as if they are diseased). That is also something child services does not do.

Mages aren't able to be adopted. They are locked up in a tower and never allowed to leave their entire life barring a few. Their children are taken from them the instant they are born and most never see the sky again. Child services is not like that. The templars do forcibly take children and lock them up for the rest of their life. 


Given that senior enchanters seem to be able to come and go as they please, not seeing this at all.


It's mentioned in Asunder that Wynne has certain privileges that other mages simply don't have, so I don't see why you think her example is true for all mages, or even all senior enchanters. Especially when Anders talks about how many mages commit suicide to escape the Chantry controlled Circles.

Bleachrude wrote...

Furthermore, both Orlais and Ferelden have mages which have contact with not only their family but also with the wider world....again, people are using Kirkwall as the standard even though both Orlais and Ferelden are in direct contrast with this.


Examples that seem to be exclusively limited to wealthy nobles like Arl Eamon.

Bleachrude wrote...

Again, I'm not sure how much I can say this but it is VERY unlikely that your typical commoner can afford the time or money to visit a child in a circle but that's due to classism. 


Or the fact that the developers have already stated that some Circles prohibit relationships for mages.

#504
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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BlueMagitek wrote...
If you haven't noticed, the past four topics or so I've made tend to be either ignored or fall into obscurity quickly. :wizard:


If its any consolation, I like your vineyard idea.

#505
LobselVith8

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BlueMagitek wrote...
Oh no, Ian and I want the same thing, he just has a different way of showing it. :wizard: 


Having read your posts, I doubt that very much.

BlueMagitek wrote...

I understand that you allow your personal bias to influence your decisions, and I'm very sorry that you do.


You consider it a 'personal bias' because I disagree with you.

BlueMagitek wrote...

What does it have to do with the Chantry?  Because, you're focusing on a small percentage of the population who are much better off than most of Thedas.  


The problem is, the mages aren't better off. We know mages commit suicide to escape the Chantry controlled Circles. We know some Circles are prone to abuse. We know that mages have been veering towards becoming independent since Awakening, when Wynne was afraid it would happen - and argued against it because she said the Chantry would kill all the mages rather than see them free.

BlueMagitek wrote...

I'm so sorry that the mages, with supernatural abilities, do not appear to pay taxes, have their own republic system of government, have enforcable rights (a Chevalier can get away with raping a person, a Templar, in most situations, has to answer to their superior and the Chantry, Harrowed Mages cannot be made tranquil, etc), get to study, have protection from bandits, don't need to answer to Lords or the Chantry, etc.  


On the other hand, those people aren't subject to acts of genocide simply for who they are. The Circle of Kirkwall was annuled because they were mages. The Circle of Rivain was anuled because the foreign templars saw mages having relationships with their family outside the Chantry controlled Circle. I don't think the mages should be forced to endure these forsaken places for the rest of their lives.

BlueMagitek wrote...

The vast, vast majority of Thedas don't have anything like that, but all anyone seems to focus on is how awful it is for Circle mages.  


I'm not sure who you think you're going to convince that the horrors of the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order enforce on mages should be overlooked simply because things are also bad outside the Chantry controlled Circles.

BlueMagitek wrote...

If you haven't noticed, the past four topics or so I've made tend to be either ignored or fall into obscurity quickly. :wizard:


I haven't run across them, but I know Andrastian culture doesn't interest some people.

#506
In Exile

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LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm not sure I understand why the plight of the downtrodden people across Thedas has to do with the Chantry controlled Circles being toxic enviornments that some of us strongly condemn. 


I'm not sure where Blue Magitek is going with this, but this is absolutely something critical to bear in mind when talking about mage freedom. Because it's important to understand just how unworkable Thedosian society is from our moral POV. It's why saying that we should just subject mages to a secular Circle, for example, is absolutely unworkable because we'd just be swapping out abusers. 

Mage suffrage requires wholesale social change, on a massive scale. 

#507
BlueMagitek

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
If its any consolation, I like your vineyard idea.


:lol:

LobselVith8 wrote...

Having read your posts, I doubt that very much.

You consider it a 'personal bias' because I disagree with you.

The problem is, the mages aren't better off. We know mages commit suicide to escape the Chantry controlled Circles. We know some Circles are prone to abuse. We know that mages have been veering towards becoming independent since Awakening, when Wynne was afraid it would happen - and argued against it because she said the Chantry would kill all the mages rather than see them free.

On the other hand, those people aren't subject to acts of genocide simply for who they are. The Circle of Kirkwall was annuled because they were mages. The Circle of Rivain was anuled because the foreign templars saw mages having relationships with their family outside the Chantry controlled Circle. I don't think the mages should be forced to endure these forsaken places for the rest of their lives.

I'm not sure who you think you're going to convince that the horrors of the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order enforce on mages should be overlooked simply because things are also bad outside the Chantry controlled Circles.

I haven't run across them, but I know Andrastian culture doesn't interest some people.


I consider it personal bias because you don't take into account your character's own past experiences when making your decisions, and you basically just admitted as such.

Except that they are better off.  Because they don't deal with everything 99% of Thedas has to.  They get to have a voice, they get representation, they don't worry where there next meal is coming from.

Except for Alienage Elves, Casteless, followers of the Qun, slaves...

Things are far worse outside the Circles.  It's like complaining about a hangnail when you have a gaping chest wound.

#508
Kaiser Arian XVII

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Yes. Mages situation in one picture:

Posted Image

#509
Solmanian

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I think too many people hold the notion that blood magic is not that bad, and doesn't justifies templar control. That what a mage "could" do, doesn't justify the templar "opression". That the "harrowing" is an atrocity.

Most countries have gun control. You're expected to be both proficient aswell as responsible enough to own a gun. The mages didn't choose to be born with their "guns"; yet they were born with this terrible power, and that the only thing that matter. You can't ask for mages to be treated the same as regular people, because they aren't regular people.

Look at redcliff. One "mage" child inadventarly almost destroyed the entire town. The fact that it wasn't out of malice, only makes it worse. It's one thing to say "only go after the bad mages", but the untrained ones are just as dangerous to themself aswell as others. When you have a person that has the power to destroy entire towns, maybe even nations, it's society's duty to make sure he uses that power responsibly, or to prevent him from being able to use that power.

The harrowing? You may not like it, call it barbarian, but it's neccessary. A mage's soul is a thousand time brighter in the fade than a regular human. Encounter with demons is almost inevitable, especialy if one intends to actively use magic and manipulate the fade. The harrowing is a test to prove that you can handle that situation in a controlled enviroment. Only those that show sufficient proficiency are chosen to undergo the harrowing; they don't make you go through with it, if they think you can't handle it. You can say the tranquilisation is a horrible alternative, but what are the options? Either a mage is capable of handling the horrors of the fade, or he isn't; and if he isn't, he SHOULD be cut off from the fade, because he's a aclear and present danger to all around him.

You can say that the bad mages that has the pwoer to destroy and subjugate nations don't justify oppressing ALL the mages. How can we tell who the "bad" mags are, without observation?

long story short, for me it's about the "greater good". Are you really entitled to japordise the lives and freedoms of 99.9% of the population (the non mages) in the name of the civil liberty of the remaining 0.1%? For me the answer is a definite NO. IRL I'm a liberal and often plays "devil advocate" in disscussions; but above all I believe in preserving life. Is the life quality of mages sucks? Maybe, the local peasants might've liked living in a gilded cage for awhile; but the lives that would be at stake if they roamed free demand it.

Srsly, if your mentaly unstable neighbur had a fully armed battle tank you would have issue with it and expect the police to do something about it...

#510
Lotion Soronarr

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You heard it from Polaris first folks!

Child services are GENOCIDE!!!!

Down with foster homes! Down with adoptions! Burn the orphanages!

And while we're at it, free all the people from the quarantene wing! Freedom (to die) to everyone!


I think you are just acting stupid since you obviously missed the point of Polaris's post.

I'm fairly sure Polaris is referencing to the mage treatment with genocide; the mages are forcibly taken from families with the templars completely ignoring if the child is well loved and looked after, which child services doesn't do, they don't steal children from loving, caring homes. The mages are not permitted to ever contact their families and friends, they are completely cut off from their life and basically wiped from that record (such as never being able to hold titles and treated as if they are diseased). That is also something child services does not do.

Mages aren't able to be adopted. They are locked up in a tower and never allowed to leave their entire life barring a few. Their children are taken from them the instant they are born and most never see the sky again. Child services is not like that. The templars do forcibly take children and lock them up for the rest of their life.

Stop acting like that, it makes you look like a moron.


And you obviously missed mine.

It doens't matter if the home is a loving one. Love doesn't do diddly squat to prevent a mage child from burnign down a house.

The quesiton isn't if a child is loved by it's mother (it usualyl is) - the question is if taking mage children away is warranted. AND IT IS.

And no, visits aren't forbidden, and mages aren't "cut off from life" by no definition of life I'm familiar with.

#511
Lotion Soronarr

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LobselVith8 wrote...
Or the fact that the developers have already stated that some Circles prohibit relationships for mages.


Wrong.
DG said that marriage in Cirlce is in SOME Circles DISCOURAGED. I don't recall he ever said it was forbidden.

#512
Lulupab

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Legatus Arianus wrote...

Yes. Mages situation in one picture:

Posted Image


Posted Image

#513
kinderschlager

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Solmanian wrote...

I think too many people hold the notion that blood magic is not that bad, and doesn't justifies templar control. That what a mage "could" do, doesn't justify the templar "opression". That the "harrowing" is an atrocity.

Most countries have gun control. You're expected to be both proficient aswell as responsible enough to own a gun. The mages didn't choose to be born with their "guns"; yet they were born with this terrible power, and that the only thing that matter. You can't ask for mages to be treated the same as regular people, because they aren't regular people.

Look at redcliff. One "mage" child inadventarly almost destroyed the entire town. The fact that it wasn't out of malice, only makes it worse. It's one thing to say "only go after the bad mages", but the untrained ones are just as dangerous to themself aswell as others. When you have a person that has the power to destroy entire towns, maybe even nations, it's society's duty to make sure he uses that power responsibly, or to prevent him from being able to use that power.

The harrowing? You may not like it, call it barbarian, but it's neccessary. A mage's soul is a thousand time brighter in the fade than a regular human. Encounter with demons is almost inevitable, especialy if one intends to actively use magic and manipulate the fade. The harrowing is a test to prove that you can handle that situation in a controlled enviroment. Only those that show sufficient proficiency are chosen to undergo the harrowing; they don't make you go through with it, if they think you can't handle it. You can say the tranquilisation is a horrible alternative, but what are the options? Either a mage is capable of handling the horrors of the fade, or he isn't; and if he isn't, he SHOULD be cut off from the fade, because he's a aclear and present danger to all around him.

You can say that the bad mages that has the pwoer to destroy and subjugate nations don't justify oppressing ALL the mages. How can we tell who the "bad" mags are, without observation?

long story short, for me it's about the "greater good". Are you really entitled to japordise the lives and freedoms of 99.9% of the population (the non mages) in the name of the civil liberty of the remaining 0.1%? For me the answer is a definite NO. IRL I'm a liberal and often plays "devil advocate" in disscussions; but above all I believe in preserving life. Is the life quality of mages sucks? Maybe, the local peasants might've liked living in a gilded cage for awhile; but the lives that would be at stake if they roamed free demand it.

Srsly, if your mentaly unstable neighbur had a fully armed battle tank you would have issue with it and expect the police to do something about it...



my mental stability and tanks are no concern of yours:P

and instead of making them tranquil, i would personally prefer death. from the encounters you have with tranquile, particularly in DA2, it seems to imply that a persons SOUL is killed, yet the body is left alive. no thank you

#514
IanPolaris

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BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It's a better idea to send the Chevalier to the hell that he deserves and change the laws that permit it.

-Polaris


You only seem to care about it for when it happens to mages though. :/


You are wrong.  I have talked about the injustices suffered by CIty Elves in other threads.  I am pinpointing on mages in this thread because this thread is about mages.  Imagine that!  I also hold to the notion that "two wrongs don't make a right". 

Just because another group (in this case city elves) is subject to injustice does not excuse injustice to the group we are talking about in this thread (mages). 

-Polaris

#515
IanPolaris

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Taking away children from a group and putting them into other groups is specifically laid out by the UN as a form of genocide.  Look it up.

-Polaris


You heard it from Polaris first folks!

Child services are GENOCIDE!!!!

Down with foster homes! Down with adoptions! Burn the orphanages!

And while we're at it, free all the people from the quarantene wing! Freedom (to die) to everyone!


This is simply a dumb post.  Child Services takes away children for cause, not based on a certain group and ONLY if there is no other way.

However, the use of Child Services, Targeted Adoptions, or other official instutions to specifically target children in certain groups IS considered genocide by the UN.  There have been some nations (the PRC for one) that's gotten into hot water over exactly where this line is.

-Polaris

#516
IanPolaris

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In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
If this were right after DAA or even DA2, I'd agree.  In fact if you'll recall my posts from a couple of years ago, I never advocating removing the circle system all at once.  Instead I advocated phasing it out while increasing magical regulation and security and phasing that responsibility to the various states.


How would that in any way reduce abuse? Ignoring that the idea that this could actually be a solution is far-fetched (because you'd be asking the mages to exchange one militant set of jailers for another), why would giving jurisdiction over the mages to each nation improve anything?


I've already discussed this for many years on other threads.  The first thing I would have done would be to remove the Chantry oversight of the Circles and place it in the hand of the royalty of each nation.  I'd also phase in mage representation into how the circles are run as a matter of fact rather than theory.  I would then gradually reintroduce and reeducate (this being a long term project) both mages and mundanes so they could live aside one another in peace.

This also would require a magical enforcement arms of which mages would be a PART and would answer to the King.

All of this is moot right now since the circle system is now gone.

-Polaris

#517
IanPolaris

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In Exile wrote...
How would that in any way reduce abuse? Ignoring that the idea that this could actually be a solution is far-fetched (because you'd be asking the mages to exchange one militant set of jailers for another), why would giving jurisdiction over the mages to each nation improve anything?


If anything it would make things much worse.
The Chantry is relatively neutral territory so it keeps mages out of politics. So each nation would try to use mages to gain an advantage.


The chantry has proven itself to be anything but neutral or capable of this responsibility, and the chantry has proven to have a biase based on a very skewed reading of the Chant of Light that makes it difficult to impossible to police mages fairly.  That responsibility needs to be taken away into better hands, and the best hands would be that of the secular authories (ie nobility)

Are there problems with that?  Sure.  There are problems with any proposal, but too many pro-templar people have in the past refused to even consider anything else.

Now they have no choice because the old circle system is dead and it's never coming back.

-Polaris

#518
KiwiQuiche

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You heard it from Polaris first folks!

Child services are GENOCIDE!!!!

Down with foster homes! Down with adoptions! Burn the orphanages!

And while we're at it, free all the people from the quarantene wing! Freedom (to die) to everyone!


I think you are just acting stupid since you obviously missed the point of Polaris's post.

I'm fairly sure Polaris is referencing to the mage treatment with genocide; the mages are forcibly taken from families with the templars completely ignoring if the child is well loved and looked after, which child services doesn't do, they don't steal children from loving, caring homes. The mages are not permitted to ever contact their families and friends, they are completely cut off from their life and basically wiped from that record (such as never being able to hold titles and treated as if they are diseased). That is also something child services does not do.

Mages aren't able to be adopted. They are locked up in a tower and never allowed to leave their entire life barring a few. Their children are taken from them the instant they are born and most never see the sky again. Child services is not like that. The templars do forcibly take children and lock them up for the rest of their life.

Stop acting like that, it makes you look like a moron.


And you obviously missed mine.

It doens't matter if the home is a loving one. Love doesn't do diddly squat to prevent a mage child from burnign down a house.

The quesiton isn't if a child is loved by it's mother (it usualyl is) - the question is if taking mage children away is warranted. AND IT IS.

And no, visits aren't forbidden, and mages aren't "cut off from life" by no definition of life I'm familiar with.


Yet someone who is genuinely loved and cared for is a crapload less likely to inflict harm on others and burn property. And then the Templars are surprised when they get so many angry mages?

You are focibly taken from your family and basically loked in prison for the rest of your life for being born. That seems fairly accurate in 'cut off from life'

#519
Lotion Soronarr

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IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You heard it from Polaris first folks!

Child services are GENOCIDE!!!!

Down with foster homes! Down with adoptions! Burn the orphanages!

And while we're at it, free all the people from the quarantene wing! Freedom (to die) to everyone!


This is simply a dumb post.  Child Services takes away children for cause, not based on a certain group and ONLY if there is no other way.

However, the use of Child Services, Targeted Adoptions, or other official instutions to specifically target children in certain groups IS considered genocide by the UN.  There have been some nations (the PRC for one) that's gotten into hot water over exactly where this line is.

-Polaris


All your posts are dumb.

Templars take away children for a cause too - it just so hapens that that cause is also linked to a certain group. You get so hanged on mages being a specific group that you forget to see the big destinction between our world and TheDas - there differences between groups ARE real and serious.
Repeat after me: FULLY JUSTIFIED.

It's not genocide, since destruction fo a groups is never the goal....except aparently now according to you, Child Services are genocide.


The chantry has proven itself to be anything but neutral or capable of
this responsibility, and the chantry has proven to have a biase based on
a very skewed reading of the Chant of Light that makes it difficult to
impossible to police mages fairly.  That responsibility needs to be
taken away into better hands, and the best hands would be that of the
secular authories (ie nobility)

Are there problems with that?
 Sure.  There are problems with any proposal, but too many pro-templar
people have in the past refused to even consider anything else.


I disagree.
It is both capable and more neutral than secular authorities would be. For one your idea of secular doesn't exist. Every single lord will have his own biases.



KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yet someone who is genuinely loved and cared for is a crapload less
likely to inflict harm on others and burn property. And then the
Templars are surprised when they get so many angry mages?

You are
focibly taken from your family and basically loked in prison for the
rest of your life for being born. That seems fairly accurate in 'cut off
from life'


You are implying mage children aren't loved by their caretakers - which is something I have yet to see proof of.

Alos there is plenty of life within the Circle and mages that prove themselves can get out.

#520
BlueMagitek

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Oh yes, let's introduce mages and dreamers into the Orlaisian game; you think what Arl Howe and Loghain had mages do was bad? Oh ho ho ho ho.  Nobility don't really care all that much about following rules, and you can bet that they would institute Templar, or whatever the new version would be called, as well. 

So now the buck stops at individual leaders instead of one person. k

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yet someone who is genuinely loved and cared for is a crapload less likely to inflict harm on others and burn property. And then the Templars are surprised when they get so many angry mages?

You are focibly taken from your family and basically loked in prison for the rest of your life for being born. That seems fairly accurate in 'cut off from life'


I'm guessing Meredith's sister & Connor were not genuinely loved and cared for. :wizard:

#521
In Exile

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IanPolaris wrote...
I've already discussed this for many years on other threads.


Well, in this thread, you didn't actually address the point. 

The first thing I would have done would be to remove the Chantry oversight of the Circles and place it in the hand of the royalty of each nation.


Why would the royalty be less abusive? This isn't a secular society. The rulers are still Andrastian. Moreover, who do you think the templars would be? Secular humanist atheists? No - you'd be recruiting from those devout enough to dedicate themselves to a warrior order whose aim is to keep mages in a prison camp. 

The Alriks and Karrases of the world are abusive because of who they are - giving the templars a new coat of arms won't make them less likely to forcibly tranquil or rape mages. 

I'd also phase in mage representation into how the circles are run as a matter of fact rather than theory.


And just how do you plan on doing that? How does it work as a "matter of fact"? Because without actual political and social power you won't be able to do anything of the sort.

I would then gradually reintroduce and reeducate (this being a long term project) both mages and mundanes so they could live aside one another in peace.


And how would you do this using medieval level tech? Create an entire national system of education first, and them force people to attend it and teach them propaganda? 

This also would require a magical enforcement arms of which mages would be a PART and would answer to the King.


How would this avoid any of the abuse? Why are you pretending that the Thedosian royalty is some secular bastion of humanist care? 

#522
Lotion Soronarr

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Ian and many pro-mages want a compelte (magical) reform of entire Thedas....even tough it doens't have the necessary socio-economical, cultural or technological prequisites in place.

#523
Bleachrude

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I seriously doubt most nations would be as restrained as the Chantry has been in using mages.

The only time the chantry has used mages offensively is against the quanari and the darkspawn (and in both cases, I can imagine the Chantry had no problems finding volunteers). Hell, they didn't even use them offensively per se but only once the chantry itself was under attack.

Would Antiva (and its Crows) be as restrained? Hell, we saw in the Calling the first enchanter making a deal with the darkspawn that would spare Orlais alone IIRC.

Ferelden gets held up as "the Best" in terms of human rights but in Awakening and Origins we see that punishment is EXTREMELY severe as it should be in medieval times.

Notice that in "a Day in court" during awakenings for example, you are fully within in your rights to have people executed even if there is no hard evidence. You can execute a sheepherder for stealing a couple bushels of grain (and this is what Varel recommends and he's not an "extreme" moustache twirling villain)

Notice also that as arl, your word in FINAL and LAW. There's no 2nd guessing of your decisions (does Ferelden even HAVE a court system?) and frankly, every bann/arl/teryn/king in Ferelden will fully expect the same even if mages are "regular" people.

In Origins, Daveth was to be hung and he was only a cutpurse and this is Ferelden, supposedly the most "liberal" nation in Thedas.

#524
LobselVith8

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BlueMagitek wrote...

I consider it personal bias because you don't take into account your character's own past experiences when making your decisions, and you basically just admitted as such.


Of course I take into account their past experiences. My Surana Warden was an elven mage who was stolen from his family at a young age. He loved them, and he was happy with them. That changed when he was forced to live in the Circle of Ferelden. My protagonist agreed with the Libertarian position. He notes to Cullen how templars like to kill mages, and Cullen admits as much when he says some of his fellow templars talk about killing mages with glee. He dealt with racism at the Circle, as he tells Duncan. He openly condemned the Chantry for invading the Dales because his people didn't convert to the human religion. My Surana Warden spoke about how he found the Circle of Ferelden to be a "prison" and an "oppressive place" to Wynne, while he confided in Morrigan (his love interest) how he felt trapped within the Chantry controlled Circle. He chose to help the Mages Collective, he freed Jowan, and he used his royal boon to ask for his people to be given their independence.

The character of Hawke (who, like my Surana Warden, was designed to look ethnically Latino/Antivan) was an apostate who was on the run from the templars with his family. He had to be wary of templars all his life, as they threatened his family - especially his baby sister, who was also a mage. His sister Bethany seemed to be in self-loathing because of the teachings of the Andrastian faith. The character was a free mage who was taught by his apostate father how to properly wield magic, and I thought Malcolm was similar to Anders because Carver notes how he heard about the plight of mages growing up, and both Leandra and Bethany can comment on how Anders is similar to Malcolm. His past experiences as an apostate shaped his actions in the present. He started a romance with Merrill, who used blood magic responsibly, and she told him how her people are nomadic because the templars hunt him down. My character fought templars who endangered the Dalish and his people, he helped the mage underground, and he chose to protect the mages in Kirkwall when Meredith condemned them to death for an act they weren't responsible for.

Their past experiences also made them different, as did their roles. People commented on my Surana Warden being an elf, from the young boy in Lothering he gave money to in order for the boy to eat, to Mother Hannah who noted that a man of elven blood was helping rescue a village of humans. My Surana Warden took the role of Grey Warden seriously, and he made pragmatic choices at times because he recognized the threat that the darkspawn posed to all of Thedas - from sparing Avernus and encouraging him to continue with his research, to keeping the Anvil of the Void, and executing the Messenger and killing the Architect.

Hawke, in contrast, was simply looking to amass a fortune to purchase the Amell mansion and return his family to prominence. He also wanted to have a seat in political office - based on the single conversation he has with Varric that was vaguely followed up on when he told Meredith he should become the new Viscount. In contrast, my Surana Warden left Ferelden - including his position as Arl of Amaranthine and Warden-Commander - to be with Morrigan and his son. Hawke didn't focus on the threat of the darkspawn, but on the tyranny of the Chantry controlled Circle. He also wanted to topple the templars from power. He was also willing to use a sentient darkspawn (Corypheus) to try to prevent another Blight, which is something my Surana Warden would never do - although he changed his mind about helping Janeka when he recognized that he was under the same influence as the corrupted carta dwarves.

Even the friendships demonstrated their differences. My Surana Warden encouraged Alistair and Leliana to hardened their personality, while Hawke simply accepted Aveline and Isabela as they were instead of trying to help Aveline depend only on herself, or encourage Isabela to become a better person. Basically, I don't play the same characters with the same past experiences, although it's not too difficult to understand why an apostate would appreciate being free from the templars and the Chantry.

When it comes to Inquisition, with the mages now having autonomy after almost a millennia of servitude, and templars hunting them down because the mages are independent of the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order, I don't see much reason to play as a mage who would bend knee to others. I value my freedom, and I'd imagine my new apostate would as well. The personality of my next character depends on whether I purchase Inquisition, and what type of story is presented to me; I'm considering a more militant type of personality as a contrast to my Surana Warden and apostate Hawke.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except that they are better off.  Because they don't deal with everything 99% of Thedas has to.  They get to have a voice, they get representation, they don't worry where there next meal is coming from.


I respectfully disagree, but I doubt you and I will ever agree on this.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except for Alienage Elves, Casteless, followers of the Qun, slaves...


My Surana Warden chose King Bhelen, in part, because the casteless would get more freedoms. I abhor how the Alienage elves are treated. I find the Qun to be as monstrous as the Chant. And neither of my characters tolerated slavery. I'm not sure what my next protagonist would do, however.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Things are far worse outside the Circles.  It's like complaining about a hangnail when you have a gaping chest wound. 


The Chantry controlled Circle is terrible enough that I think it warrants discussion, although I think we are veering a bit off the main topic.

#525
In Exile

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ian and many pro-mages want a compelte (magical) reform of entire Thedas....even tough it doens't have the necessary socio-economical, cultural or technological prequisites in place.


Keep in mind, I'm also pro-mage and pro-reform of Thedas. 

I just happen to disagree with the usual suspects on pro-mage posting becuase they're often either advocating for things I think are unrealistic or morally crazy.