1082 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

LobselVith8 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

One word: Tevintar. Now if Gaider takes us deeper into other areas of Thedas where mages are free and Templar control is reduced and the mage population is on par with Tevintar then you would finally have something to show proof of. Right now I have my proof in Tevintar. 

You have too much Tevinter on the brain.  Tevinter doesn't prove anything of the sort.  In fact if mages really were as dangerous as some suggest, Tevinter should have been a smoking ruin long since.  I also note that Tevinter culture is different than other cultures.  Just because Tevinter became an evil magocracy doesn't mean it always has to happen to all societies that permit mage participation.

-Polaris

True. I don't see why some people think Tevinter is the only outcome if mages aren't brutally subjugated by the Chantry. We know about several societies that didn't emulate Tevinter: the kingdom of the Dales and their nomadic descendants, the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, and the seers in the kingdom of Rivain who live alongside the non-mages. Even the morally bankrupt society of Haven had mages living alongside non-mages. History disproves the idea that free mages automatically emulate Tevinter.

How do you know the Kingdom of the Dales did not practice blood magic, where corrupt and sacerficed humans to their gods?

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Do we have that written out or heavily implied in the Codex? That mages freely mingled? And that the populace wasn't constantly afraid of being massacred in groups of 70-100 at a time by abominations before the other mages put it down? If you can demonstrate all of that, it would be a pretty good argument for your point.

You know perfectly well that this is an unreasonable demand.

Says the pot. How does it feel?

The fact you resorted to an ad hominem shows just how weak your argument is.  The point is that the burden of proof is on the system that requires you to treat a group inhumanely.  Not the other way around.  I also pointed out a LOT of suggestive evidence that indicates that I am in fact correct.

The obvious ad hominem aside, my point was that in the absence of what I wanted you to show, all you can show is that its been done. You can't show thats a remotely good idea.

The difference is that you have the burden of proof.  Not me.

We do know from the History of the Circle, Codex Entry that the Andrastian Circle system was the first time in the history of Thedas ANYWEHRE that mages were seperated from non-mages in society.  We also know that the Ancient Tevinters tracked the bloodline for magic of almost every family in the Imperium.  That being so, it sure strongly suggests that in Ancient Tevinter mages and non-mages did freely intermingle (although in ancient Tevinter being a mage tended to make you part of the upper class...a point I don't dispute for Tevinter).

And which is half the point the Circle system's defenders raise.

Fallaciously raise.  Tevinter is it's own culture that has always put a high premium on magic.  This is not a universal condition.

As for the fear of abominations, apparently they weren't that afraid.  Otherwise Minrathus during the Height of the Ancient Imperium couldn't have been a true Metropolis (ie have a population of nearly a million people or more).   IF abominations were really that big a danger, there is no way a city of that size should have been able to form at all and that can be shown by fairly simple statistics.

-Polaris

The argument that if abominations were overly dangerous Minrathous wouldn't have formed is a reasonably well thought out argument, but the problem is that the existence of Kirkwall tends to dispove it. They go on rampages in Kirkwall with enough frequency to be worthy of note by scholars, with Meredith's sister apparently killing 70 people, and yet there's still a city there.

70 people in a year once every few generations is not a lot, and I note that Meredith's sister's incident happened BECAUSE of the circle system (and her family was afraid of sending her to the circles).

I also note that Kirkwall was a slave center and it's veil was artificially lowered by the Tevinters long ago.  If you read the Enigma codecies, you find that the death rate in Kirkwall was always horrifically high, but the Tevinters kept sending in more replacement slaves.

So no, Kirkwall is not a valid counterexample to my argument.  Kirkwall was not formed under the conditions it now has.  Minrathus was.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

How do you know the Kingdom of the Dales did not practice blood magic, where corrupt and sacerficed humans to their gods?

The way to conquer the Dales didn't happen all that long ago (by Thedas standards anyway), and records of that war/Exalted March still exist.

Had the Dalish practiced widespread bloodmagic and human sacrifice, the the Chantry would have gleefully paraded the evidence during and after that war.  They didn't.  Even Chantry scholars now say that the stories of such were likely exaggerated at best.

-Polaris

[Mr.House]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

How do you know the Kingdom of the Dales did not practice blood magic, where corrupt and sacerficed humans to their gods?

The way to conquer the Dales didn't happen all that long ago (by Thedas standards anyway), and records of that war/Exalted March still exist.

Had the Dalish practiced widespread bloodmagic and human sacrifice, the the Chantry would have gleefully paraded the evidence during and after that war.  They didn't.  Even Chantry scholars now say that the stories of such were likely exaggerated at best.

-Polaris

Just saying, we have no real evidence on the Dales at all, so trying to act like it's a fact is bias.

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

I'm not saying that what Justinia did was bad per se, just that all of these actions which sparked the pouderkeg in Asunder didn't require Anders. 

It may have not been bad, but IMHO it shows that Divine Justinia is an idiot (and I suspected as much after the Faith Mission in DA2).  Why?

Even a casual glace at history shows that when a population (say a subject population) is oppressed, revolution is not the most likely when the oppression is at it's worst.  Instead the "powderkeg" is most likely to go off just after that point when things start or even may start to look a little better. 

Why?  When things start to look better, the 'subject' population remembers how bad things were, and start to hope again, and that leads to dreaming of things being better...and that leads to discontent and revolution.  What Justina did was like walking into a gunpowder storage room and lighting a flare.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...
Whether or not it made it worse, the mages still tried, and would have tried further. 

I'm not saying that what Justinia did was bad per se, just that all of these actions which sparked the pouderkeg in Asunder didn't require Anders. 

I just don't see any way where the mages return to the authority of the Chantry, and the templars. 

It's still close to forced labour.

Perhaps, but what Uldred ended up doing, going total Abomination on everyone, harmed his cause much more than the "get the Crown to fight for the Circle". 

Perhaps, I'm afraid I do not have a solid memory of Asunder.  However, Hawke's name apparently becomes a rallying cry for either side and certainly ruined any chance of compromise for Kirkwall.

Easy.  Find an alternative Magic Severing process, keep tranquility just in case the mage requests it.  Any mage that fails the Harrowing or chooses not to take it loses their magic.  This fixes the entire tranquility issue and gives an easy out for mages to go home.  Problem solved.
Be honest now, do you see any other international organization with enough power to keep monarchs from abusing their mages?  This is beyond the scope of the Wardens.  The Chantry is the best hope for mages, currently, and they do own the legal lyrium trade.   Likewise, I don't see the Templar being replaced, because I don't see how anyone can justify removing what amounts to an anti-magical police force. 

Are the Tranquil ever actually forced to make items?  If one came to the conclusion that it would be a poor decision to do so, do mages or templars put them back to work?  Aside from that, what labor is forced by the Chantry on the mages?

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

Just saying, we have no real evidence on the Dales at all, so trying to act like it's a fact is bias.

Just saying that you don't get to accuse others of being bloodthirsty bloodmages because you can't prove that they aren't.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Are the Tranquil ever actually forced to make items?  If one came to the conclusion that it would be a poor decision to do so, do mages or templars put them back to work?  Aside from that, what labor is forced by the Chantry on the mages?

Effectively they are because once you're tranquil, you lose all sense of self-will and direction.  Tanquil (per DA2 anway) can and do follow any order.  That makes them effectively forced/slave labour.

-Polaris

[Mr.House]

Hawke had no impact on what happen in Asunder or sparked the war at all. Hawke was completely ignored because Hawke was not important at all. Anders was and even then, at best Anders just got the mage council shutdown which was then reinstated in Asunder. The war started because of key events in Asunder.

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris i've just noticed it, but what's the deal with referencing Felicia Day when talking about the Keepers?

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...
Is social equality realistic when a group of people can make it rain fire and lightning with their mind? We can't even achieve social equality in a world where all humans are more or less equally able. Maybe the best solution is where the social classes can live together in harmony?

Certainly social amicability and tolerance is a more realistic and reachable goal, or so it seems to me.

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Do we have that written out or heavily implied in the Codex? That mages freely mingled? And that the populace wasn't constantly afraid of being massacred in groups of 70-100 at a time by abominations before the other mages put it down? If you can demonstrate all of that, it would be a pretty good argument for your point.[/quote]

You know perfectly well that this is an unreasonable demand.[/quote]

Says the pot. How does it feel?
[/quote]

The fact you resorted to an ad hominem shows just how weak your argument is.  The point is that the burden of proof is on the system that requires you to treat a group inhumanely.  Not the other way around.  I also pointed out a LOT of suggestive evidence that indicates that I am in fact correct.[/quote]

That was more a joke at your expense than anything else. The main point was below. (I apologize for not making that clearer.)

[quote]
[quote]
The obvious ad hominem aside, my point was that in the absence of what I wanted you to show, all you can show is that its been done. You can't show thats a remotely good idea.
[/quote]

The difference is that you have the burden of proof.  Not me.[/quote]

You cited evidence you claimed helps your case. I am noting a major weakness in it. Burden of proof limitedly shifts to you for the purpose of that sub-topic.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
We do know from the History of the Circle, Codex Entry that the Andrastian Circle system was the first time in the history of Thedas ANYWEHRE that mages were seperated from non-mages in society.  We also know that the Ancient Tevinters tracked the bloodline for magic of almost every family in the Imperium.  That being so, it sure strongly suggests that in Ancient Tevinter mages and non-mages did freely intermingle (although in ancient Tevinter being a mage tended to make you part of the upper class...a point I don't dispute for Tevinter).[/quote]

And which is half the point the Circle system's defenders raise.
[/quote]

Fallaciously raise.  Tevinter is it's own culture that has always put a high premium on magic.  This is not a universal condition. [/quote]

I would argue special pleading, since that's where this discussion seems to have shifted. The mages got away with a takeover in Tevinter. But for the Circle system, or at least just the Templars, what stops them from managing it elsewhere? They might not even need force: if it weren't for the abomination thing, Connor would have been the Arl of Redcliffe. Maybe he wouldn't start favoring mages, maybe his son and grandson wouldn't. If this happens enough times, though, the odds of an aristocracy becoming a mageocracy goes up.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
As for the fear of abominations, apparently they weren't that afraid.  Otherwise Minrathus during the Height of the Ancient Imperium couldn't have been a true Metropolis (ie have a population of nearly a million people or more).   IF abominations were really that big a danger, there is no way a city of that size should have been able to form at all and that can be shown by fairly simple statistics.

-Polaris[/quote]

The argument that if abominations were overly dangerous Minrathous wouldn't have formed is a reasonably well thought out argument, but the problem is that the existence of Kirkwall tends to dispove it. They go on rampages in Kirkwall with enough frequency to be worthy of note by scholars, with Meredith's sister apparently killing 70 people, and yet there's still a city there.[/quote]

70 people in a year once every few generations is not a lot, and I note that Meredith's sister's incident happened BECAUSE of the circle system (and her family was afraid of sending her to the circles). [/quote]

Who said once every few generations? We don't know the rate, just that its noticeably higher than it ought to be. Besides, at a certain point, even a number of deaths insufficient to destroy a city is enough to merit keeping a relatively small minority under lock and key. It is not enough to merit the abuses Meredith's parents might have been scared of, but if all they were thinking of was that they didn't want their child removed from their house, then they were wrong, not society.

[quote]
I also note that Kirkwall was a slave center and it's veil was artificially lowered by the Tevinters long ago.  If you read the Enigma codecies, you find that the death rate in Kirkwall was always horrifically high, but the Tevinters kept sending in more replacement slaves.

So no, Kirkwall is not a valid counterexample to my argument.  Kirkwall was not formed under the conditions it now has.  Minrathus was.

-Polaris[/quote]

My main point was that if your logic here, while well thought out, applied to Thedas, Kirkwall would probably have dwindled a lot in population. For that matter, fires were for a long time a relatively dangerous problem in cities compared to in other areas. They still formed.

[Zanallen]

Filament wrote...

Is social equality realistic when a group of people can make it rain fire and lightning with their mind? We can't even achieve social equality in a world where all humans are more or less equally able. Maybe the best solution is where the social classes can live together in harmony?

Somehow I don't see that happening. People tend to want what others have and if they are unable to achieve that, they tend to settle for making sure no one else can have it either. The poor tend to envy the rich, after all.

[Dave of Canada]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Are the Tranquil ever actually forced to make items?  If one came to the conclusion that it would be a poor decision to do so, do mages or templars put them back to work?

Tranquil can just up and leave the Circle, start shops and live normal lives elsewhere. Mundanes don't like them anymore than their normal counterparts and might force them off but the Chantry doesn't force them to do anything.

Filament wrote...

Is social equality realistic when a group of people can make it rain fire and lightning with their mind? We can't even achieve social equality in a world where all humans are more or less equally able. Maybe the best solution is where the social classes can live together in harmony?

If it'll happen, it won't happen anytime soon on Thedas. We need centuries of social reform, peasants gaining more rights and becoming educated, etc. Right now in a world where guards and nobles can do almost anything unchecked, we're not going to accomplish much.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 02 juin 2013 - 08:53 .

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris i've just noticed it, but what's the deal with referencing Felicia Day when talking about the Keepers?

http://social.biowar...6072/7#16777116

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The alternatives haven't been put into practice; they have been discussed in threads. The Chantry controlled Circles lead to a continental rebellion. And I don't have to endorse the Qun or Tevinter to oppose having mages submit to the templars and the Chantry.

Actually if the Chantry's laws had been followed, there wouldn't have been a continental rebellion.  Had the Wardens killed Anders or the Chantry simply suffered not an abomination to live, this problem would not have occurred.

That 's the difference between you and I. I don't think the Chantry's laws should be followed.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, the Chantry is in between the Qun and Tevinter, it is the compromise between killing or enslaving all mages and keeping the Mages as the ruling class.

Or fighting for mages to keep their autonomy in the Mage-Templar War.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And no, the Chantry is not enslavement, at worst it is imprisonment. 

Are we arguing about what my apostate Hawke said about the Chantry controlled Circles? This retort seems a little off from the current discussion.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Are the Tranquil ever actually forced to make items?  If one came to the conclusion that it would be a poor decision to do so, do mages or templars put them back to work?

Tranquil can just up and leave the Circle, start shops and live normal lives elsewhere. Mundanes don't like them anymore than their normal counterparts and might force them off but the Chantry doesn't force them to do anything.

Tranquil no longer have any self-will.  That means they are incapable of making a choice of their own volition, and that makes them slaves (unless they volunteer in which case they are indentured servents).  In either case, they have no ability to make a freewilled choice.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Tranquil no longer have any self-will. 

This is where you argue against what's been shown and told to you because it disagrees with your premise, right?

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris i've just noticed it, but what's the deal with referencing Felicia Day when talking about the Keepers?

http://social.biowar...6072/7#16777116

-Polaris

Now that's interesting, did any of the writing team confirm it?

[In Exile]

Filament wrote...
Is social equality realistic when a group of people can make it rain fire and lightning with their mind? We can't even achieve social equality in a world where all humans are more or less equally able. Maybe the best solution is where the social classes can live together in harmony?

There are multiple ways to go about this. Morally, I hope we're all for social equality. Thedas certainly isn't there yet, since everything is some kind of autocracy. But in an autocratic society, the mages either are ruled or will rule, and that's the basis for a state of perpetual war. 

More importantly, there's no harmony in places where there's a hopeless sort of inequality. Even here, where the inequality is wealth, there's always the hope that peopel could amass some of it (at least to live a comfortable life). And otherwise, we try to create a society where the general benefits of wealth are shared - especially when you step outside the US and get to things like social medicine.

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
Tranquil no longer have any self-will.  That means they are incapable of making a choice of their own volition, and that makes them slaves (unless they volunteer in which case they are indentured servents).  In either case, they have no ability to make a freewilled choice.

-Polaris

We know that's false. Owain clearly has will and desires - he returns to the stockroom, for example, in the chaos in the Circle because it is familiar, and clearly says that he wants the tower to return to its old self. 

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Tranquil no longer have any self-will.  That means they are incapable of making a choice of their own volition, and that makes them slaves (unless they volunteer in which case they are indentured servents).  In either case, they have no ability to make a freewilled choice.

-Polaris

Ahem, as per Gaider, tranquil have free will.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6901812#6910050

[Mr.House]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Tranquil no longer have any self-will. 

This is where you argue against what's been shown and told to you because it disagrees with your premise, right?

Owain proves he is wrong.