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[Jedi Master of Orion]

I went back and watched all the Karl and Anders scenes from Dragon Age 2 because I certainly don't remember him saying that tranquil can't consider the possibility of disobeying an order but I wanted to make sure. He never says this. He says that "when you're tranquil you never think on your life before."

Even that is kind of suspect considering both games have a codex entry of a journal of a tranquil remarking on his old life.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 juin 2013 - 09:46 .

[Stella-Arc]

In Exile wrote...

Marethari kept her people near Kirkwall so long they were getting convert or die demands. And all of her decisions were based on what she believed Merrill's best interest was - she didn't give a fig about her people, in comparison, or their best interests.

And the same with Zathrian. Beyond the fact that he propagated a lie about his own immortality and made a mockery of his people's beliefs, he let the werewolves hunt and transform his people just to continue sating his need for revenge. 

Just because Marethari decided to negelct her duties as a Keeper doesn't mean that it was due to her being a mage. And before anyone jumps the gun I understand that as the leader of the clan, where they go falls to her. However, what happened if she wasn't a mage? Will the same argument hold the same weight? No. In the end, Marethari was blinded by her love for Merrill. People can do stupid things if they are emotionally attached to someone and since Marethari raised Merrill when she was four years old, I'm not surprised at all by her actions. 

With Zathrian, he did what he did because he was filled with grief. If he wasn't a mage, he would have still found a way to get his revenge. And if he wasn't a Keeper, he still would have done it. For over 300 years, nothing bad happened to him or his clan until 9:31. I think he did a fine damn job for someone who used blood magic and bound a spirit of the forest inside a wolf. The fact of the matter is this:

A mage is like a gun, it can kill a lot more people efficiantly unlike a mundane, who as a knife, who can still committ atrocities but with "less" frequency (and that is only comparing them as weapons). However, they both kill and are dangerous. One leader can decimate an entire nation with just one word while a single abomination can kill 70 people (I doubt a single abomination can decimate a country). In the end, while magic is indeed dangerous, "fear has done more damage than magic could ever do".

Modifié par Stella-Arc, 02 juin 2013 - 10:02 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Tranquil no longer have any self-will. 

This is where you argue against what's been shown and told to you because it disagrees with your premise, right?

Ian's point is exactly what Alrik says about how tranquility will make Ella compliant, as well as how the female tranquil mage talks about how she does what Alrik commands. The loss of their emotions is monstrous. The reverted tranquil mages found it so abhorrent that they prefer death to a return to tranquility.

[In Exile]

Stella-Arc wrote...
Just because Marethari decided to negelct her duties as a Keeper doesn't mean that it was due to her being a mage.

Of course. But it's indicative of the kind of power she has. And if being a mage is a prerequisite to being a Keeper, then we suddenly have a ruling class that has quite a great deal of discretion in how to run the lives of others, with very litle oversight. 

However, what happened if she wasn't a mage? Will the same argument hold the same weight? No. In the end, Marethari was blinded by her love for Merrill. People can do stupid things if they are emotionally attached to someone and since Marethari raised Merrill when she was four years old, I'm not surprised at all by her actions.  

The issue is whether or not you can be a regular person and still be in the same position as Marethari. I'll put aside the obvious argument - that if Merrill and Marethari were mundanes, Audacity could never have targeted them because neither could have done anything about the mirror - and focus on the ruling class aspect. 

With Zathrian, he did what he did because he was filled with grief. If he wasn't a mage, he would have still found a way to get his revenge. And if he wasn't a Keeper, he still would have done it.

But he wouldn't have lived for 300 years as he perpetuated a blood magic curse over the human descendants of the people he wronged or actively participated in speading a lie about the source of his life for his peoples beliefs. 

For over 300 years, nothing bad happened to him or his clan until 9:31. I think he did a fine damn job for someone who used blood magic and bound a spirit of the forest inside a wolf.

Which part was the fine job? The one where he inflicted centuries of suffering on the children of the people who wornged him, or the part where he actively lied to his entire race? 

I'm not one to actually defend the Dalish's supremacist beliefs, but Zathrian made a mockery of them.

A mage is like a gun, it can kill a lot more people efficiantly unlike a mundane, who as a knife, who can still committ atrocities but with less frequency. However, they both kill and are dangerous. One leader can decimate an entire nation with just one word while a single abomination can kill 70 people (I doubt a single abomination can decimate a country). In the end, while magic is indeed dangerous, "fear has done more damage than magic could ever do". 

It's easy to regulate a gun. It's not easy to regulate a person. Because we recognize that autocrats can order the death of millions, we've created an entire political system of check and balances. But Thedas doesn't have that, and we've married the absolute power of an autocrat with even more potential sources of corruption, actual voices in people's heads, and a genetic condition that some are arguing is cool to be a ruling class.

Again - I'm totally pro-mage, and pro-mage freedom. But it's silly to pretend like these aren't issues. 

Modifié par In Exile, 02 juin 2013 - 09:57 .

[Stella-Arc]

Filament wrote...

Stella-Arc, that should be "In Exile wrote..." btw

Oops. Thanks for the heads up. Going to fix it.

[MisterJB]

Stella-Arc wrote...
"fear has done more damage than magic could ever do".

The quote is "fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could."
Which is nonsense, obviously. While it is true fear can lead to conflict, a mob formed by scared people is by no means more dangerous than an Abomination, Magister or just a regular mage with the knowledge of spells like "curse of mortality; crushing prison; walking bomb".

[Stella-Arc]

In Exile wrote...

Stella-Arc wrote...
Just because Marethari decided to negelct her duties as a Keeper doesn't mean that it was due to her being a mage.

Of course. But it's indicative of the kind of power she has. And if being a mage is a prerequisite to being a Keeper, then we suddenly have a ruling class that has quite a great deal of discretion in how to run the lives of others, with very litle oversight. 

However, what happened if she wasn't a mage? Will the same argument hold the same weight? No. In the end, Marethari was blinded by her love for Merrill. People can do stupid things if they are emotionally attached to someone and since Marethari raised Merrill when she was four years old, I'm not surprised at all by her actions.  

The issue is whether or not you can be a regular person and still be in the same position as Marethari. I'll put aside the obvious argument - that if Merrill and Marethari were mundanes, Audacity could never have targeted them because neither could have done anything about the mirror - and focus on the ruling class aspect. 

With Zathrian, he did what he did because he was filled with grief. If he wasn't a mage, he would have still found a way to get his revenge. And if he wasn't a Keeper, he still would have done it.

But he wouldn't have lived for 300 years as he perpetuated a blood magic curse over the human descendants of the people he wronged or actively participated in speading a lie about the source of his life for his peoples beliefs. 

For over 300 years, nothing bad happened to him or his clan until 9:31. I think he did a fine damn job for someone who used blood magic and bound a spirit of the forest inside a wolf.

Which part was the fine job? The one where he inflicted centuries of suffering on the children of the people who wornged him, or the part where he actively lied to his entire race? 

I'm not one to actually defend the Dalish's supremacist beliefs, but Zathrian made a mockery of them.

A mage is like a gun, it can kill a lot more people efficiantly unlike a mundane, who as a knife, who can still committ atrocities but with less frequency. However, they both kill and are dangerous. One leader can decimate an entire nation with just one word while a single abomination can kill 70 people (I doubt a single abomination can decimate a country). In the end, while magic is indeed dangerous, "fear has done more damage than magic could ever do". 

It's easy to regulate a gun. It's not easy to regulate a person. Because we recognize that autocrats can order the death of millions, we've created an entire political system of check and balances. But Thedas doesn't have that, and we've married the absolute power of an autocrat with even more potential sources of corruption, actual voices in people's heads, and a genetic condition that some are arguing is cool to be a ruling class.

Again - I'm totally pro-mage, and pro-mage freedom. But it's silly to pretend like these aren't issues. 

With Zathrian's argument....I meant that no werewolves attacked his clan in 300 years. With everything else, I agree with you.

And you are right and that is where lies the problem. The entire Templar vs Mages, Mages vs Chantry, Mages vs Mundanes, and Mages vs Politics is not something that can be easily answered correctly. Mages ARE dangerous just like Mundanes are dangerous. The biggests differenceis , one has magic that can cause more damage then a single mundane can (and can summon and be possessed by demons). That is why I prefer not to care. What will happen, will happen. I've had enough of mages and templars. 

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ian's point is exactly what Alrik says about how tranquility will make Ella compliant, as well as how the female tranquil mage talks about how she does what Alrik commands. The loss of their emotions is monstrous. The reverted tranquil mages found it so abhorrent that they prefer death to a return to tranquility.

Yes, yes. Let's dismiss everything else tranquil related which everyone has brought up including book sources and developer quotes.

Viva la Revolución!

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 02 juin 2013 - 10:16 .

[In Exile]

Stella-Arc wrote...
With Zathrian's argument....I meant that no werewolves attacked his clan in 300 years. With everything else, I agree with you.

Oh, I see. Then, yeah, absolutely point taken. Frankly, now that I think about it I kind of wonder why he even returned. 

And you are right and that is where lies the problem. The entire Templar vs Mages, Mages vs Chantry, Mages vs Mundanes, and Mages vs Politics is not something that can be easily answered correctly. Mages ARE dangerous just like Mundanes are dangerous. The biggests differenceis , one has magic that can cause more damage then a single mundane can (and can summon and be possessed by demons). That is why I prefer not to care. What will happen, will happen. I've had enough of mages and templars. 

Too bad Hawke couldn't say that. 

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ian's point is exactly what Alrik says about how tranquility will make Ella compliant, as well as how the female tranquil mage talks about how she does what Alrik commands. The loss of their emotions is monstrous. The reverted tranquil mages found it so abhorrent that they prefer death to a return to tranquility.

Yes, yes. Let's dismiss everything else tranquil related which everyone has brought up including book sources and developer quotes.

Viva la Revolución! 

Like Owain cleaning the storeroom in the middle of an abomination outbreak?

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I went back and watched all the Karl and Anders scenes from Dragon Age 2 because I certainly don't remember him saying that tranquil can't consider the possibility of disobeying an order but I wanted to make sure. He never says this. He says that "when you're tranquil you never think on your life before."

Even that is kind of suspect considering both games have a codex entry of a journal of a tranquil remarking on his old life.

You need to play it again.  You can challenge Anders saying why he'd want to help Karl who just betrayed him, and both Anders and Karl explain that Tranquil don't have free will in this regard.

-Polaris

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anders says "He can only follow the rules." Karl does not say this. He says that it's like all the color and music of the world being gone.

[Lulupab]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anders says "He can only follow the rules." Karl does not say this. He says that it's like all the color and music of the world being gone.

Are we still argueing about this? Karl BEGS you to kill him after he is cured briefly. If Hawke is a mage he will comment that he is rather be dead too. Being a tranquil is exactly like being a slave. One that never disobeys orders, ever.

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anders says "He can only follow the rules." Karl does not say this. He says that it's like all the color and music of the world being gone.

Karl also says it made him a Templar puppet.  Replay that scene again.  The effective lack of free will by a Templar is telling and Karl does tell you this (this is why he used the word puppet).  Note that Karl pleads for you to kill him before becoming tranquil again.  This is consistant with those that have had tranquility reversed (although I admit the sample size is small, it is a telling revelation).

If a tranquil lacks the emotional context to protect his or her self interest (and they don't....DA2 makes that clear), then how can they really be said to have 'free will' or the ability to make informed decisions about what is best for themselves.  If they lack this ability, then any work done by them is in effect forced labour.

-Polaris

[Stella-Arc]

MisterJB wrote...

Stella-Arc wrote...
"fear has done more damage than magic could ever do".

The quote is "fear makes men more dangerous than magic ever could."
Which is nonsense, obviously. While it is true fear can lead to conflict, a mob formed by scared people is by no means more dangerous than an Abomination, Magister or just a regular mage with the knowledge of spells like "curse of mortality; crushing prison; walking bomb".

Thanks for correcting the quote. Been awhile since I killed Merrill in my pro-Templar playtgrough. Anyway, you are right. The fear is legimitate but it when it turns into hate, that can pose a problem. Look what happened in Asunder with the mundanes when Rhy's and co. arrived at an Inn. Granted, the fear was understandable but when you kill innocent people who haven't done wrong, then they are no different then the mages when they are blinded by their emotions (some mages anyhow). Mages should be watched but there has to be a better way than what the Circle had in place. 

[BlueMagitek]

Doesn't Owain return to the store room because he found it to be a comforting place? Was that not his reason for doing so? I don't remember a "I was told to clean this store room and that's why I'm here!"

[Stella-Arc]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anders says "He can only follow the rules." Karl does not say this. He says that it's like all the color and music of the world being gone.

Karl also says it made him a Templar puppet.  Replay that scene again.  The effective lack of free will by a Templar is telling and Karl does tell you this (this is why he used the word puppet).  Note that Karl pleads for you to kill him before becoming tranquil again.  This is consistant with those that have had tranquility reversed (although I admit the sample size is small, it is a telling revelation).

If a tranquil lacks the emotional context to protect his or her self interest (and they don't....DA2 makes that clear), then how can they really be said to have 'free will' or the ability to make informed decisions about what is best for themselves.  If they lack this ability, then any work done by them is in effect forced labour.

-Polaris

Tranquils just think logically so they can make their own decisions. If a Templar orders them to perform a task, why would they refuse unless they see a logical reason not to (like in Asunder)? They lack the emotional response to certain acts (such as rape) which in my opinion, makes the whole Rite of Tranquility abhorrent. After all, how can they be emotionally scarred if they can't feel? So, in a sense, they are puppets to the Templars but can still logically reason. They still have free-will, it's just that their free-will is intertwined with logic. But that, in of itself, is where the problem comes from.

Modifié par Stella-Arc, 02 juin 2013 - 10:54 .

[stonemyst]

I have to agree until we prove the chantry imposing the idea that a tranquil mage is the only useful mage or a dead one. I want to see if you can meet the mage in fade and free him that way as we have seen the effect on the minds of others after we helped them get past there problems in the fade effect them outside the fade.

[llandwynwyn]

Lt_Riley wrote...

And to add injury to insult, the surving good mages (wynne/irving) adamantly bend knee to the templar.

And Irving doesn't really care about the mages, not really.

[BlazingSpeed]

Without going to much into a rant the "evil" Templar's are just a product of the Chantry's propaganda just like the Seekers and possibly even the "Inquisition".

Until the real problem is addressed more fighting will just occur and the general NPC's will remain scared of the evil "blood" Mages.

Also Avernus from Warden's Keep is another blood mage that didn't go completely crazy same with Zathrian as dead as he is...(at least in my Dragon Age canon run...).

[In Exile]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Doesn't Owain return to the store room because he found it to be a comforting place? Was that not his reason for doing so? I don't remember a "I was told to clean this store room and that's why I'm here!"

He says he ran into the barrier, found his way blocked, and returned to the storeroom because it felt comfortable, yes. Which undermines the idea that tranquil don't have any emotions, since conformt is one. So is contentment, which a DA:O journal entry on the tranquil mentions. 

[In Exile]

llandwynwyn wrote...

And Irving doesn't really care about the mages, not really.

Given that his goal is to root out people like Uldred, it's not per se wrong. It's sacrifice, but what exactly are the options? Give the templars fodder for a RoA?

[BlueMagitek]

Irving stopping blood mages = Irving doesn't care about mages? lolwhat?