1082 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Nope.  I remember that thread.  DG's initial position was wrong.  He denied it was possible to be an atheist in DAO as a Warden.  Lob called him on it.

Yes, I recall that thread too. And the reply is that if there were options for the human noble to express disbelief in the Maker, they're not supposed to be there. 

Actually, the immediate reply was where he admitted he was wrong and said the atheist options would never be avaliable again, and the latter reply in Xil's thread was that he forgot, eventually conceding that he would allow for players to express disbelief in the Maker after numerous atheist threads took issue with his stance prohibiting it's return and his views on atheism. The option to express disbelief in the Maker isn't even limited to Origins - it's avaliable in Awakening as well.

[wsandista]

The atheist argument again? Have we at least agreed on what an atheist is yet?

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, the immediate reply was where he admitted he was wrong and said the atheist options would never be avaliable again, and the latter reply in Xil's thread was that he forgot, eventually conceding that he would allow for players to express disbelief in the Maker after numerous atheist threads took issue with his stance prohibiting it's return and his views on atheism. The option to express disbelief in the Maker isn't even limited to Origins - it's avaliable in Awakening as well.

I think you and I have differing definitions of the term 'numerous.'

I don't recall any such options in Awakening, but I don't care enough to argue the issue.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 juin 2013 - 05:30 .

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

I kinda meant the crazy on BSN:D

As for the game, considering that all the crazy events took place in Kirkwall I can buy that it was due to a thin veil. If only so that we don't have to revisit Kirkwall again. I never want to see that place again. 

That's one thing we can agree on. The criticism fans made about this aspect of the game made it into the two story DLCs that followed. Frankly, the plethora of stupid and insane mages were tiresome, so I can understand the OP's concern about how mages will be depicted this time around.

Hazegurl wrote...

As for religion in the game. I do think their was an option for the Human noble to say they didn't believe in the Maker, But honestly it wasn't much of a line to base a whole argument on.

No one based an entire argument on one, single line of dialogue.

Hazegurl wrote...

There certainly wasn't rampant "The Maker doesn't exist!!" dialouge.

There were dialogue lines where The Warden could make it clear he didn't believe in the dogma of the Andrastian Chantry. My Surana Warden said the Maker wasn't his god and condemned the Chantry for invading the Dales as a result of his people not converting to their religion. The Warden can tell Leliana that Andraste wasn't divine, and was simply a woman. The elven Warden can tell Velanna that Andraste used their people for her own ends. The Warden-Commander can tell Justice that belief in the Maker is a "foolish superstition".

Hazegurl wrote...

So I can see it being added in either last minute by DG or some other writer to add another choice in there or it could have been a idea thought of six years before the game's release while they were tossing out ideas and it was just overlooked, whocares...

It's been brought up more than a few times because some people who don't want to be limited to playing characters who are religiously Andrastian, since some of us find the religion to be repungnant and morally bankrupt. Speaking as someone who doesn't like the Chantry of Andraste, I particularly can't understand why a mage would follow an anti-mage religion that vilified and enslaved his people.

Hazegurl wrote...

The way I see it, I don't think atheism exists in the DA verse because then belief in the Maker would automatically be christianity and neither of these things exist in the DA verse.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. Atheism has existed for centuries, and it isn't dependent on Christianity.

Hazegurl wrote...

For all we know the Maker could have been some supremely powerful mage or the first mage ever and perhaps everyone just thinks he created the world due to him possessing magic, which is something they've never seen before.

Or the Maker simply doesn't exist and, like my Surana Warden said, it's simply a "foolish superstition".

Hazegurl wrote...

Although it is hard to ignore the "Old Gods" comparison to Pagan deities and The Maker to "God" but whatever, you need inspiration from somewhere. 

Some scholars address that the Old Gods are simply ancient dragons, so they don't really prove anything either way.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lob, your every second sentance either parrots Aldenon (the doofus) or your Surana Warden. Your Surana Warden did this. Your Surana Warden did that. Guess what? No one cares. And frankly constantly brining Surana up is not only tiresome, but shows your ... obsession.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's an issue of addressing how the tranquil actually are in Origins and Dragon Age II. The Rite of Tranquility seems incomperehensibly monstrous and dehumanizing in both storylines.

No.

In DA:O it is portrayed far better.

Polaris wrote..
We DO have uncontestable cannnoical scenes that show the tranquil don't
in fact have moral agency and thus don't have freewill in the moral
sense.

I like it how you keep adding "in the moral sense". Coul it be that you have begun to realize that the variable of morality is the only thing affected, and that you define free will simply by it?

I consider your entire premise redicolous. A human brain is a complex, chaotic, undeterministic system. Choices are made and processed. One variable more or less does not suddenly define free will when you have hunderds of variables.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 juin 2013 - 06:49 .

[IanPolaris]

For the context of this thread, and the idea that Tranquil are truly free, the ability to have freewill in the *moral* sense is essential. Otherwise the tranquil is nothing other than a walking, talking computer that does what it is told. In order to have freewill, one must have the capacity to choose and the *desire* to choose, and that last necessarily requires an emotional context.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

DG's post which Lob just reposted does seem to conflate not believing in a god or gods (Atheism) with a hatred of religion.

In my personal experience that is far more often true than not.

99% of atheists I met either hate all religion or Christianity.
It may be a generalization, but it's one of the more accurate ones.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hazegurl wrote...

At best this is (yet another) example of DG changing the lore to win an argument (and I've seen this before).

I can't believe this was typed and actually posted AND the poster is actually serious.  :lol:

So a writer went so far as to change his own lore, have a company spend millions putting it in the game etc and millions of people worldwide will read it... just to win an argument with one dude on the internet? :lol:

*sigh* I can't want for E3 and some DA news, it's hard keeping track of the crazy.

Yeah, it is fascinating isn't it.

+++

On a side-note, expressing disbelief in the Maker and being an Atheist are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. There are other gods out there in Thedas, and unless the Warden/Hawke denounces them ALL, then he is not really an atheist.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
While the narrative of the storyline had Karl beg for death instead of becoming a "templar puppet" again while we know how compliant the tranquil mages were to Alrik.

Pespective is a funny thing.

Given that Karl probably hated the templars (he was Anderses lover after all), taking away his hate is something he'd probably see as "being a puppet".


If anything, DA:I needs a more balanced portrayl of the Templars and the tranquil.

Mad mages in DA2? Funny how the mage supporters don't mind how the Templars got a darker portrayl too....because that meshes well with their preconceptions.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

DG's post which Lob just reposted does seem to conflate not believing in a god or gods (Atheism) with a hatred of religion.

In my personal experience that is far more often true than not.

99% of atheists I met either hate all religion or Christianity.
It may be a generalization, but it's one of the more accurate ones.

I've been an atheist since I've been a teenager (more than thirty years).  I don't hate religion.  I honestly don't think the delusions of other people are worth hating (or even taking seriously).  Since others do, I accept they do and keep my personal disagreements to myself (unless asked).

I am only one person, but there are a number of atheists of the same basic ilk.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mad mages in DA2? Funny how the mage supporters don't mind how the Templars got a darker portrayl too....because that meshes well with their preconceptions.

It doesn't count unless you see a vigorous rape scene with ominious music in your face every five minutes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
I've been an atheist since I've been a teenager (more than thirty years).  I don't hate religion.  I honestly don't think the delusions of other people are worth hating (or even taking seriously).  Since others do, I accept they do and keep my personal disagreements to myself (unless asked).

I am only one person, but there are a number of atheists of the same basic ilk.

-Polaris

I know there are, I know a few.
But sadly your sub-grup seems to be in the minority.

[Insaner Robot]

wsandista wrote...

The atheist argument again? Have we at least agreed on what an atheist is yet?

I'd like the option to choose Agnosticism.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mad mages in DA2? Funny how the mage supporters don't mind how the Templars got a darker portrayl too....because that meshes well with their preconceptions.

It doesn't count unless you see a vigorous rape scene with ominious music in your face every five minutes.

Come to think of it, maybe BioWare should do just that...but even more redicolously over the top.
Think the Epic Potato Ship Scene from Death Note.

They should turn the evil of templars not up to 11, but up to 666. It should be so redicolous, that either no one will take it seriously or will side with templars out of sheer spite of such a portrayl.

[kinderschlager]

Insaner Robot wrote...

wsandista wrote...

The atheist argument again? Have we at least agreed on what an atheist is yet?

I'd like the option to choose Agnosticism.

less then 2 days gone, poke my head back in and this is what i see.  i detect some SERIOUS de-railment in progress:P

[kinderschlager]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

DG's post which Lob just reposted does seem to conflate not believing in a god or gods (Atheism) with a hatred of religion.

In my personal experience that is far more often true than not.

99% of atheists I met either hate all religion or Christianity.
It may be a generalization, but it's one of the more accurate ones.

I've been an atheist since I've been a teenager (more than thirty years).  I don't hate religion.  I honestly don't think the delusions of other people are worth hating (or even taking seriously).  Since others do, I accept they do and keep my personal disagreements to myself (unless asked).

I am only one person, but there are a number of atheists of the same basic ilk.

-Polaris

i'm only BASIC ilk? 

[kinderschlager]

anyone got any info on how the elven gods figure into the whole scheme of things, or are they being ignored again?

(even after all the tantalizings hints about elven history in the 2 games currently out)

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

DG's post which Lob just reposted does seem to conflate not believing in a god or gods (Atheism) with a hatred of religion.

In my personal experience that is far more often true than not.

99% of atheists I met either hate all religion or Christianity.
It may be a generalization, but it's one of the more accurate ones.

You ever take a minute to wonder why that is?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
In my personal experience that is far more often true than not.

90% of atheists I met either hate all religion or Christianity.
It may be a generalization, but it's one of the more accurate ones.

You ever take a minute to wonder why that is?

 

I bet *not* for the reason you think it is.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 juin 2013 - 11:05 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lob, your every second sentance either parrots Aldenon (the doofus) or your Surana Warden.

You'll have to excuse me for pointing out the fact that The Warden could do everything from condemn the Chantry as an institution for its actions to expressing that the Maker didn't exist. I understand that, as someone who apparently dislikes the fact that people are allowed to hold opposing views, it would be a serious issue for you.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Your Surana Warden did this. Your Surana Warden did that. Guess what? No one cares. And frankly constantly brining Surana up is not only tiresome, but shows your ... obsession.

Obsession is more like making post after post about how Leliana couldn't possibly have died, even if the developers said she was dead and came back to life.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lob, your every second sentance either parrots Aldenon (the doofus) or your Surana Warden.

You'll have to excuse me for pointing out the fact that The Warden could do everything from condemn the Chantry as an institution for its actions to expressing that the Maker didn't exist. I understand that, as someone who apparently dislikes the fact that people are allowed to hold opposing views, it would be a serious issue for you.

As usual the poitn goes WAY over your head.

I dislike the fact that you don't say "the warden could do this or that", but rather say "MY SURANA WARDEN did X and Y" and only bring up the fact that the warden can do X if it suits your current agenda.
Something you oh so often forget when the wardens ability of choice doesn't support your current theory.

Obsession is more like making post after post about how Leliana couldn't possibly have died, even if the developers said she was dead and came back to life.

She is alive ain't she? She ain't dead.
And I don't recall any direct confirmation from the devs. If there is one, link it.
Because "we'll explain how she's back" and "she was dead but is now alive" are two very different things.

Either way, I'll allways attack a stupid argument like the "death animation" one.

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Frankly, the plethora of stupid and insane mages were tiresome, so I can understand the OP's concern about how mages will be depicted this time around.

Everyone in Kirkwall was nuts, including the Templars. Everyone will always have something to complain about when a storyline isn't going their way in an RPG.

No one based an entire argument on one, single line of dialogue.
There were dialogue lines where The Warden could make it clear he didn't believe in the dogma of the Andrastian Chantry. My Surana Warden said the Maker wasn't his god and condemned the Chantry ....".

I was referring to a Human Noble PC not an Elf one. I know for a fact that you can outright display nonbelief in the Chantry for a elf playthrough. Something I enjoyed. From what I read of the quotes with Gaider, is that it seems like the argument was about a line of dialouge spoken by the human noble warden.

It's been brought up more than a few times because some people who don't want to be limited to playing characters who are religiously Andrastian, since some of us find the religion to be repungnant and morally bankrupt. Speaking as someone who doesn't like the Chantry of Andraste, I particularly can't understand why a mage would follow an anti-mage religion that vilified and enslaved his people.

As a result of your metagaming. So far we have nothing much in any of the stories that outright suggests this for a human PC to go on. You can say "My Hawke hated the fact that mages were locked up by the Chantry and Templars and therefore hates the Chantry." but that's pretty much all you have to go on and  there were not many opportunities for the PC to express this over the issues in Kirkwall. No one asked Hawke what he believed in so I think it would have been stupid to have him/her randomly mentioning how evil they think the Chantry is when the topic is on the actions of the Templars. I do think you can call out the Grand Cleric for doing nothing. I'm not too sure on that. But even then what could be accomplished by squeezing in a "I hate the Chantry because of xyz" aside from letting you rant against a fictional religion at a point where it would be totally uncalled for. Overall, I just think this is a case of Atheists wanting some recognition in a world where the term doesn't exist and therefore doesn't apply. As a nonbeliever myself, I say pick your battles.  Not everything has to respresent your RL beliefs.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. Atheism has existed for centuries, and it isn't dependent on Christianity.

Don't even go there with me. This has nothing at all to do with what I wrote. In the DA verse Christianity does not exist therefore Atheism can't exist. You're mixing RL with fictional lore here.

Or the Maker simply doesn't exist and, like my Surana Warden said, it's simply a "foolish superstition".

True, or perhaps your Surana Warden is just  bitter as hell and has an opinion based on that bitterness. We won't know unless the writers go deeper into the whole Maker story etc. Until then, I see all this religion as just a backdrop to flesh out the world. As long as my PC isn't bending a knee in elief of the Maker I am satisfied.

Some scholars address that the Old Gods are simply ancient dragons, so they don't really prove anything either way.

It doesn't have to prove anything, just noting a RL comparisons on how the "Old Gods" are viewed vs "The Maker"

Modifié par Hazegurl, 04 juin 2013 - 02:15 .

[Hazegurl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

At best this is (yet another) example of DG changing the lore to win an argument (and I've seen this before).

I can't believe this was typed and actually posted AND the poster is actually serious.  :lol:

So a writer went so far as to change his own lore, have a company spend millions putting it in the game etc and millions of people worldwide will read it... just to win an argument with one dude on the internet? :lol:

*sigh* I can't want for E3 and some DA news, it's hard keeping track of the crazy.

Yeah, it is fascinating isn't it.

+++

On a side-note, expressing disbelief in the Maker and being an Atheist are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. There are other gods out there in Thedas, and unless the Warden/Hawke denounces them ALL, then he is not really an atheist.

Right, disbelief in the Maker is not Atheism and I would be very reluctant to even introduce the term itself in game cause that would just open up a whole can of worms for BioWare. Lob keeps mentioning his Surana warden with expressing Atheist beliefs ignoring that he's an Elf and probably doesn't believe in the Maker cause he has his own Gods etc to fall back on.

[garrusfan1]

so this thread went from the topic to anti religion and then to critizing people then to aethiesm and anti religion. look religion isn't evil but horrible people will use it to further their agenda and such as they will with anything. religion isn't evil people that use it in a bad way are evil