1082 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not only does that not invalidate my point, but the same is true to a limited extent of the Templars due to their addiction. (With Alistair being the sole exception, possibly due to influence from his magical mother.)

The same is emphatically not true for Templars. 

1.  Alistair was never addicted to Lyrium.  Furthermore, per Alistair it would seem the Templars don't actually need to be adicted to lyrium to have their abilities.  The Grey Wardens are always chained to the Darkspawn Taint.  Without exception and indeed it defines them.

2.  You are free to join or not join the Templars.  That was true even of Alistair (who would have been a Chantry Brother like Sebastian had he not decided he wanted to be a Templar).  This is often not true for Grey Wardens (conscription) and furthermore, a Templar can leave at any time.  A Grey Warden recruit once selected may not (ask Ser Jory).

So you are simply incorrect.  The worst that happens to an ex-templar is that they are addicted to lyrium.  That's bad but not catastrophic if you are wealthy enough to buy illicit lyrium.

-Polaris

[Ravensword]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I don't know about you but I will blow up every single building accosiated with a religion and groups that order taking away children from their mothers with force and killing the parents if they resist.

You do Cerberus proud!

More like do the Soviet Union proud.

Modifié par Ravensword, 05 juin 2013 - 11:20 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...
Wanting to rid the world of mages seems necessary. Simply because mages literally are that dangerous. They have incredible power that they literally can't control. The world of Theadas would be safer without them.

It will never happen. Even if you kill every living mage (an impossible task), more are born every day. It's a random trait that can occur in anyone.

Even were this not the case, the Wardens need mages. Anyone who tried this would be interfereing with their work. So, to the extent that this will make any difference (since the Wardens very likely come down on anyone who tries this) you're making the world a less safe place.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 juin 2013 - 11:20 .

[Lulupab]

Ravensword wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I don't know about you but I will blow up every single building accosiated with a religion and groups that order taking away children from their mothers with force and killing the parents if they resist.

You do Cerberus proud!

More like do the Soviet Union proud.

Templars: Kill everyone that resist they child being taken away

Mages: Kill all those who opress us.

The side that I will take is clear.

Modifié par Rassler, 05 juin 2013 - 11:20 .

[Ravensword]

Rassler wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I don't know about you but I will blow up every single building accosiated with a religion and groups that order taking away children from their mothers with force and killing the parents if they resist.

You do Cerberus proud!

More like do the Soviet Union proud.

Templars: Kill everyone that resist they child being taken away

Mages: Kill all those who opress us.

The side that I will take is clear.

I'm a little unsure about the emboldened one. Do you have evidence?

[billy the squid]

IanPolaris wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Mage freedom, naturally begets supremacy, to domination with that much power at their fngertips.

Does it?  I hear that claim all the time, but I have yet to see any kind of proof that this is at all likely.  Sure it happened in Tevinter, but the culture of Tevinter (both ancient and modern) had always been highly favorable to mage families.

The usual answer to that is a version of "well every culture that doens't lock up mages is ruled by them" but even that doesn't really hold up under close scrutiny, and the Templar supporters have to go through a lot of contortions and overlook a lot to make that conclusion (and the Haven Cult is a clear counter-example anyways).

...and even if that were true (and it's not really), that doesn't prove that giving mages full civil rights would automatically lead to a mageocracy.

-Polaris

The question is, why did the mages became so dominant in the first place within that culture?

Yes, the citizens of Haven are an ideal example... apart from it being a tiny isolated society and they are effectively a cult, indoctrinated from birth, thus questioning the notion of free will of the mage to seieze power in the first place.

It might not, but that's like saying that we should allow bombs to walk around because it might not go off.

[Lulupab]

Ravensword wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I don't know about you but I will blow up every single building accosiated with a religion and groups that order taking away children from their mothers with force and killing the parents if they resist.

You do Cerberus proud!

More like do the Soviet Union proud.

Templars: Kill everyone that resist they child being taken away

Mages: Kill all those who opress us.

The side that I will take is clear.

I'm a little unsure about the emboldened one. Do you have evidence?

There are some evidence lying around but I need none because I know what happens to a mother who draws a blade to reisst templars taking away her child.

[Lulupab]

billy the squid wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Mage freedom, naturally begets supremacy, to domination with that much power at their fngertips.

Does it?  I hear that claim all the time, but I have yet to see any kind of proof that this is at all likely.  Sure it happened in Tevinter, but the culture of Tevinter (both ancient and modern) had always been highly favorable to mage families.

The usual answer to that is a version of "well every culture that doens't lock up mages is ruled by them" but even that doesn't really hold up under close scrutiny, and the Templar supporters have to go through a lot of contortions and overlook a lot to make that conclusion (and the Haven Cult is a clear counter-example anyways).

...and even if that were true (and it's not really), that doesn't prove that giving mages full civil rights would automatically lead to a mageocracy.

-Polaris

The question is, why did the mages became so dominant in the first place within that culture?

Yes, the citizens of Haven are an ideal example... apart from it being a tiny isolated society and they are effectively a cult, indoctrinated from birth, thus questioning the notion of free will of the mage to seieze power in the first place.

It might not, but that's like saying that we should allow bombs to walk around because it might not go off.

We don't know that. The only mages we know who did that are Tevinter mages. What about other mages in other countries? We know nothing about them. Its safe to assume they all lived like Hawke's family, Mages were taught by their parents or neighboring elder mages.

[IanPolaris]

billy the squid wrote...

The question is, why did the mages became so dominant in the first place within that culture?

Perhaps because cultures are different and some cultures value magic and put a lesser value on human rights than others?  Heck we see that IRL.  Different cultures have historically had very different norms and memes. 

Yes, the citizens of Haven are an ideal example... apart from it being a tiny isolated society and they are effectively a cult, indoctrinated from birth, thus questioning the notion of free will of the mage to seieze power in the first place.

There didn't seem to be anything preventing mages (and there were many) in the Haven cult from seizing power, but apparently Kolgrim and his predessors had controlled the cult for centuries (per the Guardian) and we know that Kolgrim (the indisputed current leader) was no mage.  We also know that the Father of the Haven Chantry was.  Pretty clearly both mages and non-mages in that society could and did aspire to positions of power and importance, but both lived alongside each other peacefully.

I am not condoning the society in other ways, but it does provide clear proof that mages don't always dominate over non-mages when both live alongside each other openly.

It might not, but that's like saying that we should allow bombs to walk around because it might not go off.

Bombs don't have freewill and the rights of human beings.  People do.  If you can't tell the difference, then I feel sorry for you.

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not only does that not invalidate my point, but the same is true to a limited extent of the Templars due to their addiction. (With Alistair being the sole exception, possibly due to influence from his magical mother.)

The same is emphatically not true for Templars. 

1.  Alistair was never addicted to Lyrium.  Furthermore, per Alistair it would seem the Templars don't actually need to be adicted to lyrium to have their abilities.  The Grey Wardens are always chained to the Darkspawn Taint.  Without exception and indeed it defines them.

We have from Gaider that Alistair is not the rule for this. The vast majority of Templars need lyrium. This is also supported by the Templar in front of the Denerim Chantry, who has anterograde amnesia due to his lyrium habit but takes it anyway "because he wouldn't be a Templar if he didn't."

2.  You are free to join or not join the Templars.  That was true even of Alistair (who would have been a Chantry Brother like Sebastian had he not decided he wanted to be a Templar).  This is often not true for Grey Wardens (conscription) and furthermore, a Templar can leave at any time.  A Grey Warden recruit once selected may not (ask Ser Jory).

The Revered Mother is outright stated to have tried to bar Alistair from leaving. That doesn't help your case much. Nor does the fact that Alistair and Anders both left the Wardens, and that nobody tries to stop the Warden himself from leaving after his job is done. The Grey Wardens as a faction don't seem to come after any of them.

So you are simply incorrect.  The worst that happens to an ex-templar is that they are addicted to lyrium.  That's bad but not catastrophic if you are wealthy enough to buy illicit lyrium.

-Polaris

And if you're not? Or if you spend it all on lyrium?

Besides which, my main point was that the logic used in the argument I was originally responding to doesn't work.
A is similar in way X to B.
A is evil.
Therefore, B is evil.

You can argue that I misunderstand the argument, maybe, though I think I have it. The Grey Warden thing, on the other hand, is more a demonstration than an actual point.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 juin 2013 - 11:33 .

[billy the squid]

IanPolaris wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

The question is, why did the mages became so dominant in the first place within that culture?

Perhaps because cultures are different and some cultures value magic and put a lesser value on human rights than others?  Heck we see that IRL.  Different cultures have historically had very different norms and memes. 

Yes, the citizens of Haven are an ideal example... apart from it being a tiny isolated society and they are effectively a cult, indoctrinated from birth, thus questioning the notion of free will of the mage to seieze power in the first place.

There didn't seem to be anything preventing mages (and there were many) in the Haven cult from seizing power, but apparently Kolgrim and his predessors had controlled the cult for centuries (per the Guardian) and we know that Kolgrim (the indisputed current leader) was no mage.  We also know that the Father of the Haven Chantry was.  Pretty clearly both mages and non-mages in that society could and did aspire to positions of power and importance, but both lived alongside each other peacefully.

I am not condoning the society in other ways, but it does provide clear proof that mages don't always dominate over non-mages when both live alongside each other openly.

It might not, but that's like saying that we should allow bombs to walk around because it might not go off.

Bombs don't have freewill and the rights of human beings.  People do.  If you can't tell the difference, then I feel sorry for you.

-Polaris

• It has nothing to do with the vast power that is at the tips of an individuals fingers, then right? Mages have an inherrent moral compass that stops them abusing their powers?
• The current leader was not a Mage, but learning the abilities of a Reaver isn't normal is it. Consorting with Demons, how did that come about? Through blood magic and Mages. So at some point one of their number was a Mage while iving in a peaceful indoctrinated cult, happy families all the way. Indoctrination tends to do that.
• Yep, mages have free will, which is great. Because some will actually choose to abuse their power. A bomb doesn't choose to decide to topple a government or consort with deamons and use blood magic. 

That old free will chestnut again, when there is no form of restriction of control on mages to centralise them in an area wher  postential problems can be contained. We'll just wait for a body count and say oops, my bad. Bob had a bad day and got possessed.

[Porenferser]

Why stop telling the truth?

[Ravensword]

Rassler wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I don't know about you but I will blow up every single building accosiated with a religion and groups that order taking away children from their mothers with force and killing the parents if they resist.

You do Cerberus proud!

More like do the Soviet Union proud.

Templars: Kill everyone that resist they child being taken away

Mages: Kill all those who opress us.

The side that I will take is clear.

I'm a little unsure about the emboldened one. Do you have evidence?

There are some evidence lying around but I need none because I know what happens to a mother who draws a blade to reisst templars taking away her child.

That's kind of like drawing a firearm on a police officer when they're arresting your son or daughter who is wanted.

Modifié par Ravensword, 05 juin 2013 - 11:44 .

[Lulupab]

Ravensword wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I don't know about you but I will blow up every single building accosiated with a religion and groups that order taking away children from their mothers with force and killing the parents if they resist.

You do Cerberus proud!

More like do the Soviet Union proud.

Templars: Kill everyone that resist they child being taken away

Mages: Kill all those who opress us.

The side that I will take is clear.

I'm a little unsure about the emboldened one. Do you have evidence?

There are some evidence lying around but I need none because I know what happens to a mother who draws a blade to reisst templars taking away her child.

That's kind of like drawing a firearm on a police officer when they're arresting your son or daughter.

Nope because the police don't arrest children for something they are born with. And the Templars are NOT the police. The closest group they can be to in reality are crusaders, or maybe Swiss guards because their outfits are equally gay.

[billy the squid]

Rassler wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Templars: Kill everyone that resist they child being taken away

Mages: Kill all those who opress us.

The side that I will take is clear.

I'm a little unsure about the emboldened one. Do you have evidence?

There are some evidence lying around but I need none because I know what happens to a mother who draws a blade to reisst templars taking away her child.

That's kind of like drawing a firearm on a police officer when they're arresting your son or daughter.

Nope because the police don't arrest children for something they are born with. And the Templars are NOT the police. The closest group they can be to in reality are crusaders, or maybe Swiss guards because their outfits are equally gay.

Children also can't shoot lighting out their fingers and Fireballs, but don't let that little issue open a gaping hole in your analogy. Carry on.

Modifié par billy the squid, 05 juin 2013 - 11:53 .

[Lulupab]

billy the squid wrote...


Children also can't shoot lighting out their fingers and Fireballs, but don't let that little issue open a gaping hole in your anology. Carry on.

Still that doesn't deny them human rights especially in that early age. Bethany is a shining example that circles are a failure and you don't need Templars watching to be a good person or mage for that matter. If I was taken away from my parents in that age cause I had magic that would make me furiois.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While the narrative of the storyline had Karl beg for death instead of becoming a "templar puppet" again while we know how compliant the tranquil mages were to Alrik. 

Pespective is a funny thing.

Given that Karl probably hated the templars (he was Anderses lover after all), taking away his hate is something he'd probably see as "being a puppet".

I think stripping Karl of his his emotions and his agency was the reason he referred to tranquility as being a templar puppet.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If anything, DA:I needs a more balanced portrayl of the Templars and the tranquil.

A balanced look at the tranquil? You can't balance the portrayal of being dehumanized.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mad mages in DA2? Funny how the mage supporters don't mind how the Templars got a darker portrayl too....because that meshes well with their preconceptions. 

The lack of characterization is actually addressed time and again, but sometimes the focus tends to be on the depiction of mage antagonists as stupid and insane because of how inane it was.

[Dave of Canada]

Rassler wrote...

Still that doesn't deny them human rights especially in that early age.

I love the human rights "argument", it shows you have no point. Thedas has no human rights.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 juin 2013 - 12:01 .

[billy the squid]

Rassler wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Children also can't shoot lighting out their fingers and Fireballs, but don't let that little issue open a gaping hole in your anology. Carry on.

Still that doesn't deny them human rights especially in that early age. Bethany is a shining example that circles are a failure and you don't need Templars watching to be a good person or mage for that matter. If I was taken away from my parents in that age cause I had magic that would make me furiois.

Haha. The imposition of Human rights into a medieval context, utterly hilarious. 

Bethany is an exception which proves the rule. The Circle works to safeguard the larger population from malign mages and undisciplined mages who even if they don't whish it cause death and destruction on a vast scale. Conner wasn't taken away. I'm sure all the other famillies who's children parents, wives and husbands were killed as a result of his lack of control, are okay with that though. 

Who said Templars are there to make mages good? They're there to safeguard the circle should something go wrong and demons and mages can't run amok.

[Lulupab]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Still that doesn't deny them human rights especially in that early age.

I love the human rights "argument", it shows you have no point. Thedas has no human rights.

Funny you mention that. Call it whatever you want its a right taken from a child while dozens of other children have it. At least I have the decency to imagine myself in place of a mage before being a judgemental hypocrite.

[Lulupab]

billy the squid wrote...

Rassler wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Children also can't shoot lighting out their fingers and Fireballs, but don't let that little issue open a gaping hole in your anology. Carry on.

Still that doesn't deny them human rights especially in that early age. Bethany is a shining example that circles are a failure and you don't need Templars watching to be a good person or mage for that matter. If I was taken away from my parents in that age cause I had magic that would make me furiois.

Haha. The imposition of Human rights into a medieval context, utterly hilarious. 

Bethany is an exception which proves the rule. The Circle works to safeguard the larger population from malign mages and undisciplined mages who even if they don't whish it cause death and destruction on a vast scale. Conner wasn't taken away. I'm sure all the other famillies who's children parents, wives and husbands were killed as a result of his lack of control, are okay with that though. 

Who said Templars are there to make mages good? They're there to safeguard the circle should something go wrong and demons and mages can't run amok.

Human right or no its a right taken away from a child while many other children have it name it Thedsian right or whatevr. I used the term close to it in our reality. Yet connor's actions were influenced by a mage oppressed by Templars and bribed by a mundane to be free from Templars if he poisons the arl. Which he does and connor goes desperate.

I have yet to see majority of children going evil out of no reason.

Modifié par Rassler, 06 juin 2013 - 12:10 .

[Dave of Canada]

Rassler wrote...

Call it whatever you want its a right taken from a child while dozens of other children have it.

Oh no, mages are privileged to be taken into Circles where they're given warm beds, an education, warm clothing and food! How dare they lose an imaginary "right" of being raised by their parents who might not even want them! How dare the mundanes fear dangerous people!

At least I have the decency to imagine myself in place of a mage before being a judgemental hypocrite.

I can imagine the mage's point of view perfectly fine, it's just irrelevant.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Rassler wrote...

At least I have the decency to imagine myself in place of a mage before being a judgemental hypocrite.

That's only half of the job. Part of the other half is to imagine yourself as a mundane. Then you have to keep imagining yourself as different mundanes, because there are more far more mundanes benefitting than there are mages being harmed. That doesn't excuse Alrik or Meredith, but it does excuse the very basic idea of the Circles; namely, that its better to comfortably confine a few (if their confinement isn't as comfortable as can be managed within the context of confinement, one could argue that is a problem) than to risk abominations running lose. (Or to risk Quentin, who is in some ways scarier for all that he's less powerful.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 juin 2013 - 12:22 .

[billy the squid]

Rassler wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Rassler wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Children also can't shoot lighting out their fingers and Fireballs, but don't let that little issue open a gaping hole in your anology. Carry on.

Still that doesn't deny them human rights especially in that early age. Bethany is a shining example that circles are a failure and you don't need Templars watching to be a good person or mage for that matter. If I was taken away from my parents in that age cause I had magic that would make me furiois.

Haha. The imposition of Human rights into a medieval context, utterly hilarious. 

Bethany is an exception which proves the rule. The Circle works to safeguard the larger population from malign mages and undisciplined mages who even if they don't whish it cause death and destruction on a vast scale. Conner wasn't taken away. I'm sure all the other famillies who's children parents, wives and husbands were killed as a result of his lack of control, are okay with that though. 

Who said Templars are there to make mages good? They're there to safeguard the circle should something go wrong and demons and mages can't run amok.

Human right or no its a right taken away from a child while many other children have it name it Thedsian right or whatevr. I used the term close to it in our reality. Yet connor's actions were influenced by a mage oppressed by Templars and bribed by a mundane to be free from Templars if he poisons the arl. Which he does and connor goes desperate.

I have yet to see majority of children going evil out of no reason.

Hahaha. A Feudal society with human rights. I'm sure the pesant masses of Thedas would point out the rank hypocrisy in that, when they are non existant for 90% of their society. 


You can't be serious? Hahaha, missing the point entirely with that one, Connor turns to magic beyond his control, and it ensues in a vast level of destruction.  The poisoning of the Yarl is irrelevant, if it wasn't a mage who poisoned him, Connor still would have acted in the same way with the ensuing mass slaughter the result. 

I'm sure another young boy, in a peasant village won't use his power to try and help a sick relative or sibling... and so the fun begins all over again. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 06 juin 2013 - 12:20 .