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[Hazegurl]

TK514 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

KainD wrote...

Filament wrote...

Tevinter ain't gonna just accept mage refugees with open arms. That's competition. They would be lucky to be Janissaries for Tevinter.

1) Need to make them see the long term opportunities.
2) There's much change to be done to Tevinter. 

Yeah and they'll just allow a bunch of broke mage refugees into their country to make that change to their system. I hope those "smart" circle mages enjoy pleasing their real slave masters. Fenris sends his regards. lol!

Now now, I'm sure the Magisters would welcome additional sources of potent blood for their less public rituals.

Oh yeah, they'll have a bounty of fresh mage blood to harvest. I can see them racing to the docks, whoever gets the most Circle Mages wins.

[Hazegurl]

Rassler wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I don't know about you but I will blow up every single building accosiated with a religion and groups that order taking away children from their mothers with force and killing the parents if they resist.

You do Cerberus proud!

Nope, I do Anders proud and I'm proud that I make him proud. Many Templars know Anders is mage in the gallows yet no one dares to even touch him, not even Cullen.

Yeah, those are the benefits to faking friendship with Hawke.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Still that doesn't deny them human rights especially in that early age.

I love the human rights "argument", it shows you have no point. Thedas has no human rights.

Wrong.  The dialog (canonical dialog) many places in DAO, DAA, and even DA2 make it very clear that the concept and even practice of human right (esp in the Free Marches and Fereldan) is very much understood and practiced.

-Polaris

[wolfhowwl]

Rassler wrote...
Nope because the police don't arrest children for something they are born with. And the Templars are NOT the police. The closest group they can be to in reality are crusaders, or maybe Swiss guards because their outfits are equally gay.

Really?

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not only does that not invalidate my point, but the same is true to a limited extent of the Templars due to their addiction. (With Alistair being the sole exception, possibly due to influence from his magical mother.)

The same is emphatically not true for Templars. 

1.  Alistair was never addicted to Lyrium.  Furthermore, per Alistair it would seem the Templars don't actually need to be adicted to lyrium to have their abilities.  The Grey Wardens are always chained to the Darkspawn Taint.  Without exception and indeed it defines them.

We have from Gaider that Alistair is not the rule for this. The vast majority of Templars need lyrium. This is also supported by the Templar in front of the Denerim Chantry, who has anterograde amnesia due to his lyrium habit but takes it anyway "because he wouldn't be a Templar if he didn't."

Not exactly.  You can't be a full fledged member of the Templar Order without taking Lyrium, but that doesn't mean you can't have Templar abilities, and Alistair is proof positive that you can.  It's canon that not only does he have them, but he can teach them to others.  I know that DG regrets making that decision with Alistair early on in DAO, but done is done and it can't be undone.

I note that most people believe templar abilities require lyrium, but we know that isn't so.

2.  You are free to join or not join the Templars.  That was true even of Alistair (who would have been a Chantry Brother like Sebastian had he not decided he wanted to be a Templar).  This is often not true for Grey Wardens (conscription) and furthermore, a Templar can leave at any time.  A Grey Warden recruit once selected may not (ask Ser Jory).

The Revered Mother is outright stated to have tried to bar Alistair from leaving. That doesn't help your case much. Nor does the fact that Alistair and Anders both left the Wardens, and that nobody tries to stop the Warden himself from leaving after his job is done. The Grey Wardens as a faction don't seem to come after any of them.

Alistair was already a Templar-Squire and thus had had many years of Templar training before Duncan tried to conscript him.   You need to review your own case clearly.  At no point does Alistair say he was forced to join the Templars, and we have canon from DA2, the Templars are all volunteers.  Alistair was forced to join the CHANTRY but not the Templars.  As for Anders, Anders never left the wardens and he flat out tells you that one day, he expects the Wardens to haul him back in.  In fact he was worried that Stroud was looking for him (and he tells you this).  It's why he stole Stroud's maps.  Anders was a deserter.  That doesn't mean you get to leave the Wardens.

So you are simply incorrect.  The worst that happens to an ex-templar is that they are addicted to lyrium.  That's bad but not catastrophic if you are wealthy enough to buy illicit lyrium.

-Polaris

And if you're not? Or if you spend it all on lyrium?

I have been perfectly correct in my lore.  I also note that apparently you don't need all that much lyrium to stay basically sane.  Samson even flat out tells you that there is no law and no constraint from leaving the Templars other than being hooked on the lyrium which the Chantry requires from all full members of the order.   By contrast, once a warden, always a warden. 

Besides which, my main point was that the logic used in the argument I was originally responding to doesn't work.
A is similar in way X to B.
A is evil.
Therefore, B is evil.

You can argue that I misunderstand the argument, maybe, though I think I have it. The Grey Warden thing, on the other hand, is more a demonstration than an actual point.

I think you may have misunderstood the argument.  Even if you didn't, I think it's very fair to say that the Templars as an organization are evil because they are tasked to do evil things regardless of what their intentions once were.  That does not mean that all Templars are individually evil of course.  There have been many cases in history where good people have worked for evil organizations.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rassler wrote...

At least I have the decency to imagine myself in place of a mage before being a judgemental hypocrite.

That's only half of the job. Part of the other half is to imagine yourself as a mundane. Then you have to keep imagining yourself as different mundanes, because there are more far more mundanes benefitting than there are mages being harmed. That doesn't excuse Alrik or Meredith, but it does excuse the very basic idea of the Circles; namely, that its better to comfortably confine a few (if their confinement isn't as comfortable as can be managed within the context of confinement, one could argue that is a problem) than to risk abominations running lose. (Or to risk Quentin, who is in some ways scarier for all that he's less powerful.)

Confinement because of what you are is absolutely wrong (rather than what you have done).  This is very basic and I am suprised that DG even tried to make this into a morally grey area and even more supriesed that he (and BW) are suprised that the overwhelming player response is pro-mage.  Of course it is.

That said, that doesn't mean security doesn't matter.  Forcing mages to be educated for the public good and safety is something that reasonable people could get behind, but taking children away from their mothers for something neither has done?  No.  No. No.  Some things are just morally wrong period.  That's one of them.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

billy the squid wrote...

• It has nothing to do with the vast power that is at the tips of an individuals fingers, then right? Mages have an inherrent moral compass that stops them abusing their powers?
  
• The current leader was not a Mage, but learning the abilities of a Reaver isn't normal is it. Consorting with Demons, how did that come about? Through blood magic and Mages. So at some point one of their number was a Mage while iving in a peaceful indoctrinated cult, happy families all the way. Indoctrination tends to do that.
• Yep, mages have free will, which is great. Because some will actually choose to abuse their power. A bomb doesn't choose to decide to topple a government or consort with deamons and use blood magic.

• Actually power has very little to do with it believe it or not.  Not all people desire power.  Some do and some don't.  That's true both of mages and non-mages.  If a mage abuses the power he has, then he or she should be held accountable.  The same applies to a noble that misuses their inherent social power.  What you and everyone else has failed to show is that being a mage makes a person inherently more powerhungry than anyone else.  No one is arguing that those that abuse their power or authority should be held accountable.
• Becoming a Reaver does have to do with drinking the blood of a dragon, but otherwise please stop.  You are just reaching now.  There is no evidence that mages or magic has anything to do with this, and even if it did, there is no evidence in Haven that being a mage is any different than being a mundane when it comes to position in society.  You also have yet to show (other than baldly assert without evidence) that things would be different with regard to mages and mundanes if Haven were not a cult.  There are many things that are reprehensible about Haven but none of them are germane to the issue of whether mages and mundanes can live alongside each other.  Apparently it can be done, so you and the other templar-supporters need to consider this a valid counter-example.
• There will always be criminals in any social group.  Given that more damage can be done with magic (a point I do not dispute), then more responsibility and accountability should be demanded. Note this is DIFFERENT from treating mages badly because of what they might do, but rather treating magical crimes more harshly based on what real mage criminals HAVE done.  There is a very important difference here.
  
   

  That old free will chestnut again, when there is no form of restriction of control on mages to centralise them in an area wher  postential problems can be contained. We'll just wait for a body count and say oops, my bad. Bob had a bad day and got possessed.
  
  

No one has advocated no restrictions or control over mages or magic.  This is a strawman.

-Polaris

[jaza]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Nope because the police don't arrest children for something they are born with. And the Templars are NOT the police. The closest group they can be to in reality are crusaders, or maybe Swiss guards because their outfits are equally gay.

Really?

This. Are you ****ing five or something Rassler?

[BlueMagitek]

Actually the writers are free to alter as they please. Hence the Epilogue becoming rumors; the Warden and most of the party is exposed to a ton of lyrium through either potions, the stacks of lyrium dust the Warden insists on carrying around, or the Deep Roads/Gauntlet, so a handwave is actually really easy to do.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rassler wrote...

At least I have the decency to imagine myself in place of a mage before being a judgemental hypocrite.

That's only half of the job. Part of the other half is to imagine yourself as a mundane. Then you have to keep imagining yourself as different mundanes, because there are more far more mundanes benefitting than there are mages being harmed. That doesn't excuse Alrik or Meredith, but it does excuse the very basic idea of the Circles; namely, that its better to comfortably confine a few (if their confinement isn't as comfortable as can be managed within the context of confinement, one could argue that is a problem) than to risk abominations running lose. (Or to risk Quentin, who is in some ways scarier for all that he's less powerful.)

Confinement because of what you are is absolutely wrong (rather than what you have done).  This is very basic and I am suprised that DG even tried to make this into a morally grey area and even more supriesed that he (and BW) are suprised that the overwhelming player response is pro-mage.  Of course it is.

That said, that doesn't mean security doesn't matter.  Forcing mages to be educated for the public good and safety is something that reasonable people could get behind, but taking children away from their mothers for something neither has done?  No.  No. No.  Some things are just morally wrong period.  That's one of them.

-Polaris

That's our basic disagreement. I believe that the greater good justifies things that others would consider to be morally wrong regardless. If you could demonstrate that the greater good is not served by the Circle system, that would be something else again. (I haven't forgotten that discussion.) But you're never going to convince me that there's anything more important than doing the most good for the most people.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wrong.  The dialog (canonical dialog) many places in DAO, DAA, and even DA2 make it very clear that the concept and even practice of human right (esp in the Free Marches and Fereldan) is very much understood and practiced.

Right.

The fact that nobility and law enforcement can do whatever they please to the commoners is totally legitimate practices that support human rights, you're right. No-one really cares if we see commoners be raped, slaughtered, tortured, imprisoned with trial? I mean come on, there's criminal elements everywhere! Thedas just happens to have it worse than others. 

How about them elves?  They certainly comfortable lives without discrimination or without abuse, the humans only abuse them and burn down their homes and businesses by accident. Can't blame them, though, it's great stress relief after guardsmen take advantage of your wife and the guard-captain shrugs.

Thank heavens they're against slavery, though. Otherwise that'd be infringing upon my human rights, downright disgusting those damn slavers. Those Orlesians paying minimal pay to their servants though? Damn, they're lucky. I wish I had my own personal servants, I could abuse them for free because of my human rights!

Oh, I completely forgot! Thedas has shown great praise for religion tolerance, the fact they allow Dalish and Dwarves to co-exist without calling them heathens? God, I'm jealous of the fact that Thedas has human rights despite having them myself.

God bless Thedosian human rights.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 juin 2013 - 01:58 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wrong.  The dialog (canonical dialog) many places in DAO, DAA, and even DA2 make it very clear that the concept and even practice of human right (esp in the Free Marches and Fereldan) is very much understood and practiced.

Right.

The fact that nobility and law enforcement can do whatever they please to the commoners is totally legitimate practices that support human rights, you're right. No-one really cares if we see commoners be raped, slaughtered, tortured, imprisoned with trial? I mean come on, there's criminal elements everywhere! Thedas just happens to have it worse than others. 

How about them elves?  They certainly comfortable lives without discrimination or without abuse, the humans only abuse them and burn down their homes and businesses by accident. Can't blame them, though, it's great stress relief after guardsmen take advantage of your wife and the guard-captain shrugs.

Oh, I completely forgot! Thedas has shown great praise for religion tolerance, the fact they allow Dalish and Dwarves to co-exist without calling them heathens? God, I'm jealous of the fact that Thedas has human rights despite having them myself.

God bless Thedosian human rights.

Just because a lot of people tramples on the concepts doesn't mean the concepts don't exist in Thedas, and they aren't held as a standard because the game consistantly does.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Just because a lot of people tramples on the concepts doesn't mean the concepts don't exist in Thedas, and they aren't held as a standard because the game consistantly does.

-Polaris

Just because two people find certain behaviors disgusting doesn't mean that human rights exist, it just means two people find certain behaviors disgusting.

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually the writers are free to alter as they please. Hence the Epilogue becoming rumors; the Warden and most of the party is exposed to a ton of lyrium through either potions, the stacks of lyrium dust the Warden insists on carrying around, or the Deep Roads/Gauntlet, so a handwave is actually really easy to do.

I disagree strongly.  The writers CAN alter, but if they alter too much they shatter the internal consistancy and the willing suspension of disbelief that their fictional universe depends on.  When that happens, it's all over.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Just because a lot of people tramples on the concepts doesn't mean the concepts don't exist in Thedas, and they aren't held as a standard because the game consistantly does.

-Polaris

Just because two people find certain behaviors disgusting doesn't mean that human rights exist, it just means two people find certain behaviors disgusting.

You are wrong once again.  The concepts of human rights, the right to a hearing, and more (at least in Fereldan) do clearly exist and are held to be the standard.  Just because too many people don't honor them doesn't mean they don't exist.  Even Vaugn's fellow nobles find him vile.  There is a reason for this.  It's the same reason why Loghain rails against Chevaliers pillaging Fereldan fields and raping their wives.  The concept that this is wrong no matter what clearly exists.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

 But you're never going to convince me that there's anything more important than doing the most good for the most people.

You will never convince me that doing the most good for the most people allows one to disregard the good of the individual.  I am a deantologist and you are (apparently) a utilitarian.  We fundamentally disagree.

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Besides which, my main point was that the logic used in the argument I was originally responding to doesn't work.
A is similar in way X to B.
A is evil.
Therefore, B is evil.

You can argue that I misunderstand the argument, maybe, though I think I have it. The Grey Warden thing, on the other hand, is more a demonstration than an actual point.

I think you may have misunderstood the argument.  Even if you didn't, I think it's very fair to say that the Templars as an organization are evil because they are tasked to do evil things regardless of what their intentions once were.  That does not mean that all Templars are individually evil of course.  There have been many cases in history where good people have worked for evil organizations.

-Polaris

I was mostly arguing that the argument doesn't work, not that the Templar organization isn't evil. (My previous post does that well enough, I think. If you disagree on a fundamental level, based on a differing definition of evil, then okay. I wouldn't even know how to try and convince you.) (And yes, I double-checked the post I replied to with that original comparison. If it was anything more than a complete waste of our time, it says what I represented it as.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 juin 2013 - 02:08 .

[BlueMagitek]

Well, fortunately, where Templar power comes from was established in DA:O (Lyrium), there's an easy cop out (all parties must go through the Gauntlet, even if they do it out of order), and the person who claimed this isn't the sharpest knife in the Duster's back.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

The concepts of human rights, the right to a hearing, and more (at least in Fereldan) do clearly exist and are held to be the standard.

[Citation Needed]

Just because too many people don't honor them doesn't mean they don't exist.

"Everyone violates human rights, doesn't mean they don't exist" isn't really good at convincing me.

There is a reason for this.

Yes, he's a spoiled brat which lives off his father's fortune and has nothing to say for himself.

It's the same reason why Loghain rails against Chevaliers pillaging Fereldan fields and raping their wives.

This is evidence of... what, exactly? That Fereldans don't like when foreigners invade and take over their land? Hurt their families? You can rally anyone under a banner for hurting your people, it doesn't mean anything for the existence of human rights. The fact that you're telling me Fereldans had to fight Orlesians because of human rights violations highly disturbs me.

Come on, Polaris. You're usually delusion but not this bad.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 juin 2013 - 02:10 .

[Drakar123]

 Reading this thread has reminded me just how pathetically shortsighted humans usually are.In the conflict between templars and mages there always was and always will be only one correct choice and that is the mages.
Choosing to support he templars is ridiculous and a sign of a person who is heavily indoctorinated.Objectively speaking in the long term mages winning and creating another imperium would be far more benificial to the world of thedas and all who live in it then any other outcome (far laxer regulations regarding mages included)
Very few people are actually able to admit that the morals that they follow and which define them as a person are mearly an arbitary ruleset created out of nessecity by early humans so as to make creating a stable society possible.They are not absolute and have changed often over the years.Some would say morality changes at about the same rate as fashion trends.

These changes occured in a very predictable pattern.Actions which were percieved as beneficial for the majority of people in a society were good and those that were not were evil.Weather they were truly beneficial however is a matter of debate here in the real world.Most societies only look at how their actions would affect the near future and base their descisions on what is moral and what is not on that.Few people have the foresight to think about the consequences their descisions will have long term.Say a few hundreed years or a thousand (sometimes much less then even a century).Examples of such descisions coming to back bite us are many and numerous.

Humans simply tend not to care about what happens long after their death.Descisions which seem obvious at first glance often turn out to be anything but.These forums are a good example of that.I can say with 100% certainty that everyone here believes that mages should be regulated in some way or another for the benefit of mundanes because that would bet he right thing to do morally.These people arent wrong that in settling this war peacfully and having both sides get along with mages still being regulated (either more or less depending on where you stand) for the sakee of mundanes would save a lot of lives but as I said before this is very short sighted. 

The truth is that the course of action which will end up saving the most lives and being the most beneficial for humanity (and other races) in thedas happens to be exactly what Titus was planning.So either another imperium or the current one being returned to it's former glory.How is this you ask ?Should another imperium be established a lot of lives would be sacrificed yes and many mages would abuse their power which is why people who suppot this outcome are very rare (me being one of them).What they fail to take into account is that this would only be true for a very short while.

Eventually magic and science would progress to a point where using mundanes as slaves and servants would no longer be benificial and they would go the way of the dodo bird.Once this point is reached (and it would be reached far sooner in a country where mages have absolute power then in one where they do not) the benefits of mages winning become apparent.With mages being the only ones around,progress both technological and magical would start to increase in speed rather rapidly.A similair nation where mundanes still exist such as what would happend should mages and templars come to and aggrement could never match that speed of progress and would most likely never reach the level a mage only nation could achieve.The amount of lives that will be saved by medical and other technological breakthroughs would save many times the lives of al the people who died up to that point.Morality would change much like it did here and once slavery became uneconomical it would be abolished.

A country where everyone is mage would be a sort of utopia in a way.Immortality through magic would be easily achievable.Ending all disseases and being able to heal any injury.Instand transportation via portals or some such.Demons would not be any kind of threat since the only reason they even are a threath is because most mages do not know blood magic and as such are unable to counter them properly.Demons are pathetically easy to enslave by anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of blood magic mind control(Tarohne comes to mind.She was compeltely insane and was a perfect candidate for an abomination but she never became one because she could control demons and they could do nothing against her).In a mage only nation blood magic would be commonplace and nobody would percieve it as evil because most of it's dangerous spells such as mind control can easily be countered by other blood mages.Mundanes are incapable of this which is why it is percieved as bad and evil despite it just being a tool.Honestly I could go on and on about the benefits of magic all day and the best part is that all of this as a highly likely outcome for any mage only nation.A mage only nation would almost certainly be a meritocracy,

Meanwhile in our other hypothetical nation...(one where mages and mundanes live side by side).Honestly so much has the potential of going wrong that it's ridiculous.I'l just say it is unlikely they would ever reach the level of the mage only nation and leave it at that.It's 4 am and I am far to tired to think any more...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Is there any doubt that Drakar is trolling? If not, I suppose I can just skip the reasoned counterarguments I was preparing.

[Drakar123]

I am not trolling...I do not know any sane person who would put the effort I did into writting that wall of text at 4 am just to provoke an angry rant.You do not have to believe me if you do not want to.I would however be glad if you wrote those counterarguments for me to see since I am curious as to what your response will be.If you wish to dismiss me as a troll however feel free to do so.

[Hazegurl]

Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, whatever our nationality, place of residence, sex, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, language, or any other status. We are all equally entitled to our human rights without discrimination. These rights are all interrelated, interdependent and indivisible.

Universal human rights are often expressed and guaranteed by law, in the forms of treaties, customary international law , general principles and other sources of international law. International human rights law lays down obligations of Governments to act in certain ways or to refrain from certain acts, in order to promote and protect human rights and fundamental freedoms of individuals or groups. www.ohchr.org/en/issues/Pages/WhatareHumanRights.aspx

I have never seen anything in DA verse that suggest this exists.

Let's see:

Female Elf Warden cannot marry Alistair the King

Female Dwarf Warden cannot marry Alistair the King

Female Mage Warden cannot marry Alistair the King

Ask for territorial sovereignty for the Dalish? Access deined. Take this swamp land instead.

It's possible to have the first Elven Bann to represent the Alienage. Which means that there has never been an elf in that position before, ever.

Does that resolve the issues within the alienage? Nope.

Alistair grants city elves a place at court which upsets the nobility, why? Cause Alistair is giving some rights to a group the very few who do have rights object to.

Little noble boy gets possessed by a demon and almost kill everyone at Redcliffe, is he and his family brought to justice? Only if the PC does it, other than that all is well and the kid and his mother is never held accountable for his crimes. it's good to be a noble.

Ask any Elf in Kirkwall if they have human rights. Ask the Kirkwall guards if elves have human rights.

Ask all the starving people in low town if they have human rights.

Human rights does not exist in Tevinter or in the Qun

Who gets discriminated against in Thedas? City Elves, The poor (95% of the population lol!), Dalish, Mages, and Qunari (outside of their lands).

Are there any laws in place which prevents this discrimination? Nope!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@Drakar Let me see if I can count the questionable points of your logic.

1: The magisters would stop keeping slaves if technology permits.
2: There will be technology that can match blood magic, which if you'd read the lore you would know destroyed an entire qunari fleet with a single spell.
3: That the non-mages (the vast majority of all human and elven-kind!) dying out will be beneficial enough to humankind to justify it happening, and justify the thousand years of slavery you suggest, due to the technology that depends on questionable points 1 and 2. You seem especially out of line with reality when you say that the number of mages who will be saved due to the technology that results from their deaths will save more people than the vast majority of everyone who will have ever lived up that point.
4: That magical immortality is something just anyone can do.
5: Uldred is not evidence that demons are hard to control.
6: Demons are easy to control, and thus will not be a threat under Tevinter 2.0.

Based solely on this incredibly dubious logic, you seek to enslave the vast majority of humankind and eventually kill all non-mundanes. Are you still wondering why I accused you of trolling?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 juin 2013 - 04:58 .

[TK514]

Blood Magic means there will always been a need in a mage nation for slaves, if they could even be called that, unless the mage overlords choose to and enforce stunting the use of magic below its fullest potential. Even if artificial blood could be created, and was a useful replacement in blood magic spells, it wouldn't be enough. World of Thedas states explicitly that "The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful a spell becomes". It is also explicit that Mages who use blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits. It's not an education issue, it's not a motive issue, it's just the cost of doing business in blood.

So unless your mage utopia was willing to shackle itself to lyrium, or simply make it legal for it's citizens to murder each other in increasingly horrific ways, there will always be a slave class necessary to support widespread use blood magic.