1082 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

"If you don't count the ones that aren't, 100% of the mages in the game are evil and 100% of the templars are good!"

[IanPolaris]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The templars operate like any other security force that has or ever will exist.

You are leaving out one huge difference.  Most security forces on the planet have extremely strict and unforgiving oversight precisely because of the power that security forces have (and it's impact on pyschology....guards with no oversight quickly develope some very DISTURBING psychologies as shown by several psychological experiments in the 1960s and 1970s).

The Templars apparently have no effective oversight.  If the Templars were clearly and pointedly held accountable for their deeds (good and bad), it might have been a different story, but that's not the story we've been told.

Now it's too little, too late.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

I can't tell if the OP is trying to troll me or not.

[dunstan1993]

Indeed the CHANTRY, is the true villainous toad of the underbelly. For as we all know, for as we all have heard, for as we all have seen... THE TEACHINGS ARE NOT RESPECTED!!!!1

"Magic exist to serve man, never to rule over him" they sayath unto us. But in doing so they do not realise the perversion theyath hath committath unto themselves and others, for NAAAAY does the teachings mention that magic SHOULD LIVE UNDER HIM!!!!11

They have-ath misguided the faith in the glorious Maker and have-ath committed the atrocities the Maker would warn us of. For locking those who possess the gift in a tower is not for the glory of our MAKER!!!1 No my friends, it is for the comfort of those not willing to adapt.. *deep breath*

I come here todayath, to enlighten those who would lead the assault on either Mages or Templars. AND TO UNIIIIIIIITE!!!!1 Them against a common enemy, the ones they call "holy"... The ones they call "Maker's servants"... The ones they call "OUR SUPERIORS"!!!!!!!1111111!!!

Fight against the perversion and CORRUPTION of the Chantry and instil unto all the TRUE TEACHINGS of the great Maker upon them!!!!11

[Lt_Riley]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The templars operate like any other security force that has or ever will exist. They protect the majority of people by ensuring people who are deemed threats to their safety or the safety and stability of the state are kept in check and kept from being a threat to human beings as much as possible. It sucks, it is probably one of the worst situations imaginable that mages must be kept a watch over simply becasue they possess power, but that is the only option. The only other way to stop a mage from being a threat to others is to create a means by which mages can't access their powers whenever they please without any means of stopping them. You can take away a persons sword and give it back to them any time, you can't do that to a mage without making them tranquil, and that is not an option, even to the majority of templars.

You will have templars who are corrupt, but the majority of them are not bad people, nor corrupt monsters, nor evil slave master style tyrants. Most are just people who believe in protecting others, and who don't even want to keep mages in their state, but don't have an alternative.

Equally, mages are susceptible to being controlled and corrupted in their dreams from outside attacks on their psyche. Most mages do not wish to embrace this evil power, and I bet most don't even wish to hurt everyone, but just like how not every templar is a upstanding person, neither is every mage a good person. You will have evil, twisted people, who probably would have been just as sick as they are now even without their magic. These people aren't this way because of magic, it just happens that magic gives them a means to having power that outmatches almost anyone around them. These evil people will always ruin things for everyone, just like how the presences of evil and corrupt templars ruins everyones perceptions of them as well. But even more sad, is that mages don't even have to truely willingly accept deals with demons in order to be turned into abominations. Most of the abominations seem to have been forced into becoming them when the demons came to them at oppurtune times and emotional distress. They are a constant temptation, and should the mage ever lapse in their control or restraint, they could end up turning into a true monster. That is why the templars are needed, because abominations really are a grave and serious problem, and it would be better to ensure that the majority of mages were able to survive rather than have mages try and cope with this task without guidance from their fellow mages and a force capable of fighting off a demon and keeping the other mages safe from it.

That's what I got from the dragon age series, it's not about whether you are a templar or a mage because good and bad people come in all walks of life and in all civilizations and cultures. It's not as simple as sith vs jedi, or autobot vs decepticon, these are two sides who really are not inherently good or bad. What I don't get is how the OP thinks that templars are sooooooooo much more glorified or how the OP thinks mages are soooooooooo demonized when the two seemed to be portrayed more realistically than most games, movies, shows, or books portray their two faction conflicts.

You didn't counteract one point in my OP. I gave thorough explanations of bias between the two factions and your counterargument is: Things are the way they are because they can be no other way. You give not one explanation as to how my op was wrong, as you put it.

[Bleachrude]

IanPolaris wrote...

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

On the other hand, without Templars, another Imperium could and will rise up, with world domination easily at their fingertips. This issue isn't simple, and isn't black and white; but to me, one side is clearly the logical choice.

This is a false dichotomy.  If it were that easy, then Tevinter would never have fallen, and bloodmage mind-controlling magisters would control everyone with no hope of rebellion.  Sure SOME mages will be power hungry bastards, but that's no different than anyone else. 

-Polaris

Er..the only reason the Tevinters fell was
1. A blight that ravaged the land for centuries
2. A massive drought that led to famine
3. An uprising led by Andraste with the support of large parts of the populace.

That kind of shows that Tevinter would be very hard to stop in most circumstances.

The only reason Tevinter hasn't recovered is that the quanari are a higher technological force that have th tevinters occupied.


Most fans are Americans and "freedom" is a buzz word so it doesn't matter how legit the circle system is, as long as one person says "I'm being caged" most Americans fans of the game join with them...

[Dabrikishaw]

All I care about in regards to the mage-templar conflict is if it will end in this game or be stretched out over the other titles.

[Lt_Riley]

Aolbain wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Melrache wrote...

It's like... their game and their universe you know? They're allowed to potray the factions and characters in it as they please.

Players are paying for that universe so they can keep expanding it. And as such, those same players have a right to voice concerns about the lore should they arise. This shut up and be grateful for what you get buisness you're implying is not the way to build a healthy developer/fan relationship.

Tis has nothing to do with developer/fan relationships. This is you teling them your headcanon (mages good, templars evil) is better than their universe.

My headcanon? I gave explanations using situations from the media. If you don't agree that's fine, but I'd like an actual counter argument if you're going to condemn me as completely wrong.

[The Hierophant]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

All I care about in regards to the mage-templar conflict is if it will end in this game or be stretched out over the other titles.

I hope it's resolved near the beginning of the game while the rest of the story deals with a bigger threat.

[IanPolaris]

Bleachrude wrote...

Er..the only reason the Tevinters fell was
1. A blight that ravaged the land for centuries
2. A massive drought that led to famine
3. An uprising led by Andraste with the support of large parts of the populace.

That kind of shows that Tevinter would be very hard to stop in most circumstances.

The only reason Tevinter hasn't recovered is that the quanari are a higher technological force that have th tevinters occupied.


Most fans are Americans and "freedom" is a buzz word so it doesn't matter how legit the circle system is, as long as one person says "I'm being caged" most Americans fans of the game join with them...

Point.  Missing it.  Tevinter had already reach the end of it's tether even before the blight and the various Almarri and Avarri tribes had considerable success against Tevinter.  Not enough to overthrow it no, but more than enough to shred any ideas that Tevinter was invulnerable.

If mindcontrol magic and bloodmagic were as powerful as the chantry traditionally wants us to think and if abominations were as common and destructive as the chantry wants us to think then either:

Tevinter should have been a smoking ruin many thousands of years ago

OR

Tevinter should have facerolled all of Thedas and never fell.  Even with the blight, there could have been absolutely no dissent and no rebellion if the mindcontrol magic were as easy, powerful, and pervasive using bloodmagic as the chantry would have us believe.

The obvious conclusion is that it isn't.

-Polaris

[Lt_Riley]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I can't tell if the OP is trying to troll me or not.

You don't have to wonder. I have better things to do with my time than write long pages just to string one person along.

[Dave of Canada]

Lt_Riley wrote...

You don't have to wonder. I have better things to do with my time than write long pages just to string one person along.

Oh thank heavens, I was growing weary of arguing with the same insane arguments and now I've got a ton more!

[Cainhurst Crow]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The templars operate like any other security force that has or ever will exist.

You are leaving out one huge difference.  Most security forces on the planet have extremely strict and unforgiving oversight precisely because of the power that security forces have (and it's impact on pyschology....guards with no oversight quickly develope some very DISTURBING psychologies as shown by several psychological experiments in the 1960s and 1970s).

The Templars apparently have no effective oversight.  If the Templars were clearly and pointedly held accountable for their deeds (good and bad), it might have been a different story, but that's not the story we've been told.

Now it's too little, too late.

-Polaris

Can you really claim that? I mean, I can point to dozens of example where police authorities were never held accountable for clear examples of abuse. In fact the templars seem to have less corruption problems than most normal city guards who terrorize elves non-stop. Except in kirkwall, where the opposite is the case.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

If mindcontrol magic and bloodmagic were as powerful as the chantry traditionally wants us to think and if abominations were as common and destructive as the chantry wants us to think then either:
-Polaris

The Chantry doesn't argue that abominations are common. The argument is "Thank The Maker they're rare, now let's help keep them that way and make it more so."

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 10:10 .

[IanPolaris]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Can you really claim that? I mean, I can point to dozens of example where police authorities were never held accountable for clear examples of abuse. In fact the templars seem to have less corruption problems than most normal city guards who terrorize elves non-stop. Except in kirkwall, where the opposite is the case.

By and large Police Officers DO have to answer to an aggressive IA, and if IA doesn't work, the politicians that are in charge will make sure that it does (and lots of heads tend to roll).  I am in no way saying that such things are perfect, but by and large at least in western nations, there is clear and obivous police oversight and it DOES work.

[Now you can say that in many parts of the world there isn't effective police oversight and I'd agree...and guess what?  Many of the same problems associated with the Templars in Thedas show up in these situations as well....]

The other major example was Fereldan and we happen to know that KC Gregoire is both a reasonable man, and runs a very tight ship when it comes to his templars.  Even then we see evidence of abuse.  Basically if Kirkwall and Fereldan represent the extremes, from the information we are given (and if Lambert is any clue) the Templars are more like Meredith than Gregoire, and that's a problem.

-Polaris

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lt_Riley wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The templars operate like any other security force that has or ever will exist. They protect the majority of people by ensuring people who are deemed threats to their safety or the safety and stability of the state are kept in check and kept from being a threat to human beings as much as possible. It sucks, it is probably one of the worst situations imaginable that mages must be kept a watch over simply becasue they possess power, but that is the only option. The only other way to stop a mage from being a threat to others is to create a means by which mages can't access their powers whenever they please without any means of stopping them. You can take away a persons sword and give it back to them any time, you can't do that to a mage without making them tranquil, and that is not an option, even to the majority of templars.

You will have templars who are corrupt, but the majority of them are not bad people, nor corrupt monsters, nor evil slave master style tyrants. Most are just people who believe in protecting others, and who don't even want to keep mages in their state, but don't have an alternative.

Equally, mages are susceptible to being controlled and corrupted in their dreams from outside attacks on their psyche. Most mages do not wish to embrace this evil power, and I bet most don't even wish to hurt everyone, but just like how not every templar is a upstanding person, neither is every mage a good person. You will have evil, twisted people, who probably would have been just as sick as they are now even without their magic. These people aren't this way because of magic, it just happens that magic gives them a means to having power that outmatches almost anyone around them. These evil people will always ruin things for everyone, just like how the presences of evil and corrupt templars ruins everyones perceptions of them as well. But even more sad, is that mages don't even have to truely willingly accept deals with demons in order to be turned into abominations. Most of the abominations seem to have been forced into becoming them when the demons came to them at oppurtune times and emotional distress. They are a constant temptation, and should the mage ever lapse in their control or restraint, they could end up turning into a true monster. That is why the templars are needed, because abominations really are a grave and serious problem, and it would be better to ensure that the majority of mages were able to survive rather than have mages try and cope with this task without guidance from their fellow mages and a force capable of fighting off a demon and keeping the other mages safe from it.

That's what I got from the dragon age series, it's not about whether you are a templar or a mage because good and bad people come in all walks of life and in all civilizations and cultures. It's not as simple as sith vs jedi, or autobot vs decepticon, these are two sides who really are not inherently good or bad. What I don't get is how the OP thinks that templars are sooooooooo much more glorified or how the OP thinks mages are soooooooooo demonized when the two seemed to be portrayed more realistically than most games, movies, shows, or books portray their two faction conflicts.

You didn't counteract one point in my OP. I gave thorough explanations of bias between the two factions and your counterargument is: Things are the way they are because they can be no other way. You give not one explanation as to how my op was wrong, as you put it.

All you did was bring up speculation. You don't have evidence that no one was reprimanded in the fereldan chantry, nor the lasting reprocussions that befell the templar order of kirkwall for their acts. Your entire argument is based on a lot of assumptions, and little else.

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If mindcontrol magic and bloodmagic were as powerful as the chantry traditionally wants us to think and if abominations were as common and destructive as the chantry wants us to think then either:
-Polaris

The Chantry doesn't argue that abominations are common. The argument is "Thank The Maker they're rare, now let's help keep them that way and make it more so."

Except the Chantry has never even tried to prove in an objective and quantative matter that the circle system actually reduced the rate of abominations and deaths from them.  They assert that this is so, but they never prove it, and there is a lot of at least suggestive and compelling indications that says that it probably isn't true.

-Polaris

[thats1evildude]

So if the villain of the comic series had NOT been a mage, then how would he have pulled off those hijinks involving blood magic, the Magrallen and the Fade?

The plot necessitated a mage villain, as do quite a few of the sub-plots in DAO and DA2. When you complain about mages being portrayed as villains, then you're effectively arguing that we should make the series a lot more boring.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 mai 2013 - 10:30 .

[BlueMagitek]

What is the evidence of abuse in Ferelden?

[Nole]

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

What is the evidence of abuse in Ferelden?

There is a lot of torture equipment you find for one, then there is Anders descriptions in DAA for another (now admittedly Anders is biased but still with a Templar like Ryloc....), there is also the codex entry you find the tower that doesn't paint even Fereldan's templars in a very good light (regarding weapons training), then there is the Templar Dweeb who gets seduced by the Desire Demon (but apparently before then did act inappropriately in front of both mages and recruits....but admittedly Gregoire DOES discipline him).  Then there is the Jowan incident.  Yes we know Jowan was guilty but only ex-post facto.

Mind you, Fereldan is probably the best circle to be in if you are a mage in Thedas, but that doesn't make it a picnic.  [Heck even Ser Cullen in DAO, mage's origin alludes to some bad attitudes within Templar ranks regarding killing and abusing mages.]

-Polaris

[Cainhurst Crow]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Can you really claim that? I mean, I can point to dozens of example where police authorities were never held accountable for clear examples of abuse. In fact the templars seem to have less corruption problems than most normal city guards who terrorize elves non-stop. Except in kirkwall, where the opposite is the case.

By and large Police Officers DO have to answer to an aggressive IA, and if IA doesn't work, the politicians that are in charge will make sure that it does (and lots of heads tend to roll).  I am in no way saying that such things are perfect, but by and large at least in western nations, there is clear and obivous police oversight and it DOES work.

[Now you can say that in many parts of the world there isn't effective police oversight and I'd agree...and guess what?  Many of the same problems associated with the Templars in Thedas show up in these situations as well....]

The other major example was Fereldan and we happen to know that KC Gregoire is both a reasonable man, and runs a very tight ship when it comes to his templars.  Even then we see evidence of abuse.  Basically if Kirkwall and Fereldan represent the extremes, from the information we are given (and if Lambert is any clue) the Templars are more like Meredith than Gregoire, and that's a problem.

-Polaris

I do see your point, but I also feel that the templars really do function like any other security force. There are strict rules in what they can or can't do, and violaters are punished. The way you said it before made it sound like there was never any case of our real world police officers violating the law and facing no reprocussions for it, an claim I found idealistic.

They have corrupt factors, but I doubt that this is a majority stance. I feel that most templars are like the three recruits you encounter in dragon age 2 or many of the npc templars you encounter in DAO, looking to try and make a difference, without the madness or evil intent people like otto alrik or varnell have.

I'm just tried of this stupid false dicotomy that either all templars are evil, or all mages are good, or vice versa. Why is it hard to accept that there are two sides, both good and both bad, and just accept that it's not an easy to solve problem? It's all just infuriating to read that I almost question weather abandoning this forum until the games release might be the saner option.

[IanPolaris]

WittingEight65 wrote...

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

Why not kill everyone then? Then the entire world will be safe.

-Polaris

[Lt_Riley]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

All you did was bring up speculation. You don't have evidence that no one was reprimanded in the fereldan chantry, nor the lasting reprocussions that befell the templar order of kirkwall for their acts. Your entire argument is based on a lot of assumptions, and little else.

I don't even know where to begin with this or rather what you're talking about to be honest. You either didn't read the op or you didn't understand it. From the last bit I do understand, my argument is based on perception of events that took place.

[Cainhurst Crow]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If mindcontrol magic and bloodmagic were as powerful as the chantry traditionally wants us to think and if abominations were as common and destructive as the chantry wants us to think then either:
-Polaris

The Chantry doesn't argue that abominations are common. The argument is "Thank The Maker they're rare, now let's help keep them that way and make it more so."

Except the Chantry has never even tried to prove in an objective and quantative matter that the circle system actually reduced the rate of abominations and deaths from them.  They assert that this is so, but they never prove it, and there is a lot of at least suggestive and compelling indications that says that it probably isn't true.

-Polaris

You know, I bet the tevinter imperium has a higher fatality rate than the circles do, and a higher abomination rate as well. That society doesn't seem like one who would tolerate a mage too weak to hold their own against a demon either.

Not saying that makes the circles better, but I thought I'd bring up an interesting discussion point about alternative systems.