1082 réponses à ce sujet

[Drakar123]

Allow me to counter your counterarguments then.

1:It is why slavery stopped in our world.If that were not the case blacks would still be in chains.It is reasonable to assume the same would happen in Thedas.
2:Impressive yes but it's nothing compared to a nuke,something mages could achieve far sooner then we did in our world and machinery has replaced most monotonous boring jobs already.They could also just enslave demons as servants should they really be in need of any.
3:Of course it justifies it. it's called evolution.Should neanderthals have survived to the present day ?It's better for any species for the fitter ones to survive.Mages are superior to mundanes in every way.
4:Magical immortality seems to be something all elves posssed.It would be rediscovered in time.
5:Uldred was taught his magic by demons who would obviously not teach him how to control them.Magisters never had any problems controlling many demons
6:They are pretty easy to control and the more they are studied the easier it gets.The reason they are not under the control of mages is because the magic needed to accomplish this is forbidden to them.

Sorry for the edits.I accidentally posted this before I finished writting.

Modifié par Drakar123, 06 juin 2013 - 03:13 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Drakar123 wrote...

Allow me to counter your counterarguments then.

1:It is why slavery stopped in our world.If that were not the case blacks would still be in chains.It is reasonable to assume the same would happen in Thedas.

Our world doesn't have blood magic. That's most of why the Tevinters have slaves.

2:Impressive yes but it's nothing compared to a nuke,something mages could achieve far sooner then we did in our world and machinery has replaced most monotonous boring jobs already.They could also just enslave demons as servants should they really be in need of any.

We invented nukes because we don't have blood magic. The Tevinters never will, because if they want a large target destroyed they'll use the spell I just described. Which is easier to accomplish if you have slaves. (Your argument is even dumber if there's no such thing as nuclear energy in Thedas. And we haven't seen any uranium, now have we?)

3:OF course it justifies it's called evolution.Should neanderthals have survived to the rpesent day ?

You aren't arguing to wipe out a separate species. You're arguing to wipe out most of the present one, slowly and painfully, on the questionable assumption that it's better for people thousands of years down the road. No ethical system I know of allows this when properly practiced.

4:Magical immortality seems to be something all elves posssed.It would be rediscovered in time.
5:Uldred was taught his magic by demons who would obviously not teach him hwo to control them>Magisters never had any problems controlling many demons
6:They are pretty easy to control and the more they are studied teh easier it gets.The reason they are not under teh control of mages is because the magic needed to accomplish this is forbidden to them.

4 through 6 are all questionable assertions. We have seen no firsthand evidence of magical immortality, we have no idea how easy it is to control a demon, and frankly in the atmosphere of the Tower I think it's more likely Uldred learned blood magic from a book than from a demon. Simply put, to act on a theory that uses this evidence would be stupid, and for any character in Thedas to commit any act that is even remotely evil based on your six premises is clinical insanity. The more you talk, the stupider I feel feeding you.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 juin 2013 - 03:39 .

[Dave of Canada]

Drakar123 wrote...

Eventually magic and science would progress to a point where using mundanes as slaves and servants would no longer be benificial and they would go the way of the dodo bird.

Slavery will never be abolished, they're too valuable a resource for mages. Not only do they produce materials for their owner, they're offered as blood sacrifice for rituals and spells, a mandatory requirement if you ever hope to get anywhere above worthless within Tevinter's social structure.

Technology may come forward and mundanes may stand a better chance to fight mages but it'll never come to the point where technology overlaps magic, the fact that magic is powerful enough to eradicate entire armies and control the minds of people indicates that blood magic will always remain in style.

With mages being the only ones around,progress both technological and magical would start to increase in speed rather rapidly.

Or it'll stagnate as magic achieves everything they'd desire. Technology advances itself when man deems it necessary, we've thrived as a culture under constant effects of warfare and disease. When mages can heal most injuries, mold reality and leave entire areas resembling nuclear craters... well, they don't have to be motivated to advance technology.

Mundanes who are far less capable on the other hand, well... they've got motivation, they brought out the mages to fight the Qunari when they introduced cannons to warfare but eventually, they'd adapt and rely less on the mages and more on themselves.

Morality would change much like it did here and once slavery became uneconomical it would be abolished.

Sacrificial lambs will never become uneconomical in the world of Tevinter.

Immortality through magic would be easily achievable.

This isn't a good thing.

Instand transportation via portals or some such.

Teleportation doesn't exist on Thedas.

Demons would not be any kind of threat since the only reason they even are a threath is because most mages do not know blood magic and as such are unable to counter them properly.

Considering demons enhance a mage's capabilities, they'd still be a threat. They'd be a larger threat considering the world you're suggesting would have a very, very thin veil in time. The world you're trying to build could bring about an apocalypse.

Demons are pathetically easy to enslave by anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of blood magic mind control

They're not "pathetically easy", the lower echelons of demons are easier to control but they'd never be able to control Desire / Pride demons in the same way. In addition, underestimating demons is one of the primairy ways of becoming possessed by one.

(Tarohne comes to mind.She was compeltely insane and was a perfect candidate for an abomination but she never became one because she could control demons and they could do nothing against her)

Insanity doesn't stop one from being powerful enough to hold control.

In a mage only nation blood magic would be commonplace and nobody would percieve it as evil because most of it's dangerous spells such as mind control can easily be countered by other blood mages.

So, creating a dog-eat-dog world where the more slaves someone has, the stronger they are? The effects of blood magic are enhanced by suffering, anguish and blood. That's hardly a world which would be any fun for anyone who doesn't have the assets to rise above the chaff.

Hell, the demonic apocalypse I mentioned earlier would come about quickly. That itself is shortsighted.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 juin 2013 - 03:27 .

[In Exile]

Drakar123 wrote...

Allow me to counter your counterarguments then.

1:It is why slavery stopped in our world.If that were not the case blacks would still be in chains.It is reasonable to assume the same would happen in Thedas.

In our world, slavery wasn't based around the actual execution of slaves to increase industrial production. Blood magic literally works off of their death and suffering. 

Edit:

You aren't arguing to wipe out a separate species. You're arguing to wipe out most of the present one, slowly and painfully, on the questionable assumption that it's better for people thousands of years down the road. No ethical system I know of allows this when properly praticed.

I believe the ideology you're looking for is "National Socialism". 

Modifié par In Exile, 06 juin 2013 - 03:24 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Exile wrote...

You aren't arguing to wipe out a separate species. You're arguing to wipe out most of the present one, slowly and painfully, on the questionable assumption that it's better for people thousands of years down the road. No ethical system I know of allows this when properly praticed.

I believe the ideology you're looking for is "National Socialism". 

I said "ethical" system.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 juin 2013 - 03:31 .

[In Exile]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I said "ethical" system.

Well, technically, ethical system doesn't mean morally good. Hence the sort-of-but-not-really joke. 

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

Drakar123 wrote...

Allow me to counter your counterarguments then.

1:It is why slavery stopped in our world.If that were not the case blacks would still be in chains.It is reasonable to assume the same would happen in Thedas.

In our world, slavery wasn't based around the actual execution of slaves to increase industrial production. Blood magic literally works off of their death and suffering. 

The coffee plantations of the Carribean and the southern plantations of the 18th and 19th century say hi. In fact (esp after the invention of the cotton gin), slavery did indeed very literally work off death and suffering since the profit/gain from overworking slaves to death started to exceed the cost of new slaves.

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Drakar123 wrote...

Allow me to counter your counterarguments then.

1:It is why slavery stopped in our world.If that were not the case blacks would still be in chains.It is reasonable to assume the same would happen in Thedas.

In our world, slavery wasn't based around the actual execution of slaves to increase industrial production. Blood magic literally works off of their death and suffering. 

The coffee plantations of the Carribean and the southern plantations of the 18th and 19th century say hi. In fact (esp after the invention of the cotton gin), slavery did indeed very literally work off death and suffering since the profit/gain from overworking slaves to death started to exceed the cost of new slaves.

-Polaris

Yeah, but the reason that stopped was because there was only so much that anyone unscruplous enough to sacrifice slaves' lives could do with their deaths. Apparently draining one person dry is enough to bring one person back from the point of death, or conjure something remarkably similar to a nuke. How much do nukes cost irl? And how much good are they medically?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 juin 2013 - 04:24 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The concepts of human rights, the right to a hearing, and more (at least in Fereldan) do clearly exist and are held to be the standard.

[Citation Needed]

In the City Elf background story, the protagonist can say that they should go to the guards.  This directly implies that due process does exist or at least it's supposed to.  The fact it isn't honored doesn't mean the concept that it should be isn't there.  For that matter, Loghain himself in the Landmeet will rail that a wrongdoer deserves to be hauled before the magistrate not murdered in his home.  Yes, Loghain is being a hypocrit, but the concept is clearly there and he is using it to try to appeal to the noble's better nature.

In DAA and DA2, there are numerous allusions to the holocaust, a concept that can't exist without at least some understanding of human rights.  In Orzammar, you can speak with Lord Helmi who talks extensively about human rights.

The execution of them may be terrible, but the concepts and the ideals in Thedas are definately there.

Just because too many people don't honor them doesn't mean they don't exist.

"Everyone violates human rights, doesn't mean they don't exist" isn't really good at convincing me.

Nothing is ever going to convince you.  For everyone else, the entire argument is that "since human rights don't exist in thedas" we are free to ignore them and their implication.  The problem is the game itself DOES appeal to our notion of human rights both to the player and to our character and does so repeatedly.  That means the concept does matter in Thedas removing Dave's entire argument.

There is a reason for this.

Yes, he's a spoiled brat which lives off his father's fortune and has nothing to say for himself.

There are plenty of spoiled nobles, but some are just laughed at (like the idiot noblewoman who pampers puppies).  The antipathy towards Lord Vaugn exists because he goes against the norms of what is expected in Fereldan nobility and nobliess oblige and if you read the codex entries on Feudalism as it exists in Fereldan, you can't get very far if you do.

It's the same reason why Loghain rails against Chevaliers pillaging Fereldan fields and raping their wives.

This is evidence of... what, exactly? That Fereldans don't like when foreigners invade and take over their land? Hurt their families? You can rally anyone under a banner for hurting your people, it doesn't mean anything for the existence of human rights. The fact that you're telling me Fereldans had to fight Orlesians because of human rights violations highly disturbs me.

Sure it does.  I admit that Loghain is being hypocritical about it, but I also note that everyone is horrified when they learn that Loghain was selling elves as slaves.  That is a classic example of at least a notion of human rights right there.

Come on, Polaris. You're usually delusion but not this bad.

You are the one that isn't facing reality.  DAO, DAA, and DA2 are littered with references to modern ideas of ethics and human rights.  That means the concepts do exist and do matter.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Yeah, but the reason that stopped was because there was only so much that anyone unscruplous enough to sacrifice slaves' lives could do with their deaths. Apparently draining one person dry is enough to bring one person back from the point of death, or conjure something remarkably similar to a nuke. How much do nukes cost irl? And how much good are they medically?

Not correct.  The reason is stopped was because the British Navy that ruled the oceans in the 19th century went on the warpath and started killing all the slavers they could find, destroying all the plantations,and razing them to the ground.  In the US, it was a similiar story (substitutde the Union Army for British Navy).

This sort of slavery was put down by the rawest form of naked force.  Don't kid yourself otherwise.

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Yeah, but the reason that stopped was because there was only so much that anyone unscruplous enough to sacrifice slaves' lives could do with their deaths. Apparently draining one person dry is enough to bring one person back from the point of death, or conjure something remarkably similar to a nuke. How much do nukes cost irl? And how much good are they medically?

Not correct.  The reason is stopped was because the British Navy that ruled the oceans in the 19th century went on the warpath and started killing all the slavers they could find, destroying all the plantations,and razing them to the ground.  In the US, it was a similiar story (substitutde the Union Army for British Navy).

This sort of slavery was put down by the rawest form of naked force.  Don't kid yourself otherwise.

-Polaris

Okay, thinking on that a bit that sounds more accurate. That said, the argument Exile and I were originally arguing against looks all the weaker for that. (Not that you probably mind, this worldview really doesn't seem like your thing...)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 juin 2013 - 08:12 .

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

Blood Magic means there will always been a need in a mage nation for slaves, if they could even be called that, unless the mage overlords choose to and enforce stunting the use of magic below its fullest potential.  

And the single example in a continent with societies full of free mages is Tevinter? I don't see why any independent mage system would follow in the footsteps of Tevinter.

TK514 wrote...

Even if artificial blood could be created, and was a useful replacement in blood magic spells, it wouldn't be enough. World of Thedas states explicitly that "The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful a spell becomes". It is also explicit that Mages who use blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits. It's not an education issue, it's not a motive issue, it's just the cost of doing business in blood.

We also have mages who use blood magic for reasons that aren't malevolent and misuse their power, from the Grey Warden mages to Merrill. Using blood magic didn't change their motives: the Grey Wardens seek to protect people from the greatest threat on the planet, while Merrill is trying to restore technology that she believes can benefit the People.

TK514 wrote...

So unless your mage utopia was willing to shackle itself to lyrium, or simply make it legal for it's citizens to murder each other in increasingly horrific ways, there will always be a slave class necessary to support widespread use blood magic.

We have numerous examples of blood mages outside Tevinter who use blood magic without the need for slaves.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The concepts of human rights, the right to a hearing, and more (at least in Fereldan) do clearly exist and are held to be the standard.

[Citation Needed]

Loghain saying Howe should've been brought to court for his numerous crimes instead of being butchered, plus Awakening's "Day in Court" quest where whatever the crime committed the person is still allowed to plead their case.

The concepts exist. Their execution is heavily flawed, to the point that they are trampled upon, but Ferelden does acknowledge the existence of these things.

But you're gambling on whether or not you'll be able to act upon those rights you hold.

Ask for territorial sovereignty for the Dalish? Access deined. Take this swamp land instead.

The Dalish asked for land and King Alistair gave up Fereldan land so they could start their own country. Everything in the Hinterlands and south of it into the Korcari Wilds was to be theirs, which gave them their own nation. The request wasn't denied. It was considered, approved, and instituted.

And King Alistair implies the Dalish were not at fault for its failure down the line.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Blood Magic means there will always been a need in a mage nation for slaves, if they could even be called that, unless the mage overlords choose to and enforce stunting the use of magic below its fullest potential.  

And the single example in a continent with societies full of free mages is Tevinter? I don't see why any independent mage system would follow in the footsteps of Tevinter.

The argument he's debating with presupposes it, and supports it as the best thing for the most people. Up until today, I never thought I'd meet a troll that brazen.

[Lotion Soronarr]

A lot of trolling in this thread lately.

Hmmmm...Cerberus treatment? I hope not.
BioWare will be dead to me if they pull that crap again.

Rassler wrote...
Yes but the fact that mages are born with magic but both Templars and Cerberus are a faction and can stop being so still stands.

And what about it? It makes absolutely no difference.
Templars join out of sense of duty and desire to protect. It's a pretty f*** up and unrewarding job, but someone has to do it.

We can have different opinions. You say Templars are keepers of
circles and chantry. They have gone rouge from the chantry and there is
no circles in Thedas anymore. All have been disbanded. Templars can only
be zealots now since they turned on chantry, the very thing they swore
to protect.

Templars have sworn to protect the humans from mages (and mages from themselves). Get your facts straight.

There are some evidence lying around but I need none because I know
what happens to a mother who draws a blade to reisst templars taking
away her child.

You don't need evidence? Good. Then neither do I.
Mages are utter retards and they cannot be trusted. Because I say so.

IanPolaris wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Mage freedom, naturally begets supremacy, to domination with that much power at their fngertips.

Does
it?  I hear that claim all the time, but I have yet to see any kind of
proof that this is at all likely.  Sure it happened in Tevinter, but the
culture of Tevinter (both ancient and modern) had always been highly
favorable to mage families.

The usual answer to that is a version
of "well every culture that doens't lock up mages is ruled by them" but
even that doesn't really hold up under close scrutiny, and the Templar
supporters have to go through a lot of contortions and overlook a lot to
make that conclusion (and the Haven Cult is a clear counter-example
anyways).

...and even if that were true (and it's not really),
that doesn't prove that giving mages full civil rights would
automatically lead to a mageocracy.

-Polaris

Yes, it does.
Haven is not proof of anything as you know too little of it's workings or what goes on there. Also, haven is a really small scale. Small scale systems are not applicable to large scale.
Systems like the Dalish or Chasind would simply not work.

Bombs don't have freewill and the rights of human beings.  People do. 
If you can't tell the difference, then I feel sorry for you.

And yet it's still a bomb.

[Ravensword]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A lot of trolling in this thread lately.

Hmmmm...Cerberus treatment? I hope not.
BioWare will be dead to me if they pull that crap again.

Shall I start writing the eulogy or do you want to do it?

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Your point was to be offensive, and you were trying to provoke me into an argument. That was the entire crux of your post. There was little more to it than that. I'm sure you and I can try to be civil to one another, even if we don't agree on anything.

Given that you are now accusing me of being deliberately offensive and provoking and twisting my words left and right, I'm nto sure I even want to TRY.
You sure as hell don't seem to put any effort.

Also, acting as though the expression of a different opinion than yours is an "agenda" doesn't add much to the discussion.

Again, the devil is in the details. In the HOW. In the frequency.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Death animation has nothing to do with it. It's an issue of Leliana being dead when The Warden kills her, the codex addressing her death, the game coding listing her as dead, and the developers addressing that her coming back to life would be explained in the future.

If Leliana didn't die, then there's nothing to explain; it would basically be no different than the developers handwaving Oghren's death from Origins in Awakening if that was the case, or the demise of Justice in the Dragonbone Wastes in the scenario where he never met Anders because The Warden never recruited him into the rank of the Wardens.

You are wrong on ALL accounts there.

If the player THOUGHT she was dead, then there are things to explain. They went on to explain Anders.
Or they can skip explaining, since they don't really have to.

[Lulupab]

I am F'ing done arguing for nothing. Actions of one mage and one mage alone (Anders) sparked disbanding all the circles and it came crashing down. Mages 1 Templars 0. Templars are cowards who only pick on those whose lives they already hold in their hands and if they had any real power other than being maniacs with swords they could have stopped it and not fail utterly, to justify their failures they even went rouge on the chantry.

Just wait to see further disappointment in DA3:I. The circles are gone for good and will never be implemented again, stop fooling yourself. We will either have a new system where mages will have all rights mundanes have or at least majority of it or we will have total freedom.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Children also can't shoot lighting out their fingers and Fireballs, but don't let that little issue open a gaping hole in your anology. Carry on.

Still that doesn't deny them human rights especially in that early age. Bethany is a shining example that circles are a failure and you don't need Templars watching to be a good person or mage for that matter. If I was taken away from my parents in that age cause I had magic that would make me furiois.

Humans rights are a separate issue.
Child services take away children from parents when they are (for one reason or another) unfit.

Taking away mage children is 10000000000000000000000000% justified.

And again - proof of tempalrs killing mothers pls. If you can't provide it, don't bring your dellusions in here.
Even if you can bring up some incident like that, you'd still have ot prove it's the normam rather than the exception, and that the Tempalrs went overboard.
After all, even the tempalrs have the right to defend themselves.

[Plaintiff]

Ravensword wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A lot of trolling in this thread lately.

Hmmmm...Cerberus treatment? I hope not.
BioWare will be dead to me if they pull that crap again.

Shall I start writing the eulogy or do you want to do it?

"For Bioware:

You died as you lived.

In Canada."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...

I am ****g done arguing for nothing. Actions of one mage and one mage alone (Anders) sparked disbanding all the circles and it came crashing down. Mages 1 Templars 0.

Actually no.
There were rising tentions and several factions actively trying to instigate conflict, combined with some unpredictable outside influences.

You got Justinias involvment, you got Fiona nad Lambert, you got the Lyrium Idol.
Serveral events and people in a short timespan that ultimatively pushed the system off balance.

You think that proves that system doesn't work. This is foolish. No system is pefect or can stand forever. Al lsystems are balanced, and as long as balacne holds, they endure.
Factors outside of hte system can affect that balance and ultimatively cause it to tip.

Templars are cowards who only pick on those whose lives they already
hold in their hands and if they had any real power other than being
maniacs with swords they could have stopped it and not fail utterly, to
justify their failures they even went rouge on the chantry.

Obvious troll is obvious.
Trying to bait templar supporters into reaction with such stupid statements....

Just wait to see further disappointment in DA3:I. The circles are gone
for good and will never be implemented again, stop fooling yourself. We
will either have a new system where mages will have all rights mundanes
have or at least majority of it or we will have total freedom.

I do expect dissapointment.
BioWare does seem to go all "Disney" with a happy, politicly correct ending...and that means there will have to be one clear bad guy which will probably be the templars.

I do hope I am wrong and Bio will provide a balanced narrative and endings, with colorfull consequences.

Personally I would want for the player to be able to free the mages...but I would also want for the consequences to be not nearly as rosy as the pro-mages would want (happy co-existence, progress, prosperity), but rather more realistic crapsack world ending.
Of course, the pro-mages would rage at that, since they want their cake and eat it too...

[Ravensword]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A lot of trolling in this thread lately.

Hmmmm...Cerberus treatment? I hope not.
BioWare will be dead to me if they pull that crap again.

Shall I start writing the eulogy or do you want to do it?

"For Bioware:

You died as you lived.

In Canada."

Thank you. I'm quite satisfied w/ that.

DA:I we can expect to have mages or templars getting the ME3 Cerberus treatment. So far it seems that mages are on the fas track to becoming Cerberus 2.0. But wait, are still in it to win it. Will we have a bunch of insane templar commander wielding weapons made of primal lyrium, or what one can expect to see in DA:I, lyrium-addled templars purging an entire village that is suspected of harboring apostate mages? Which side is gonna get hit w/ the stupid stick the most? Find out in DA:I.

[Insaner Robot]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The concepts of human rights, the right to a hearing, and more (at least in Fereldan) do clearly exist and are held to be the standard.

[Citation Needed]

Loghain saying Howe should've been brought to court for his numerous crimes instead of being butchered, plus Awakening's "Day in Court" quest where whatever the crime committed the person is still allowed to plead their case.

The concepts exist. Their execution is heavily flawed, to the point that they are trampled upon, but Ferelden does acknowledge the existence of these things.

But you're gambling on whether or not you'll be able to act upon those rights you hold.

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/humanrights/1215-1500/
The National Archives, medieval concept of 'human rights'.

This doeasn't go too in depth but it's not a bad read, merely as an example.
Particularly interesting is the Magna Carta, Some of which is still in use today and may have helped form a basis for what we know today.

Three of the Charter's chapters remain valid in English law, including one (1225, chapter 29) that guaranteed to each of the king's subjects that they would not suffer imprisonment "except by the judgment of his peers or by the law of the land". This phrase - not dissimilar to modern ideas of human rights - was for the first time equated with "due process of law" in a statute of 1354. In that statute the phrase "no free man" was replaced by "no man of whatever estate or condition he may be". This hugely broadened the number of people who could consider themselves covered by it.
During the same period a philosophical belief in natural rights, such as freedom and the safe possession of belongings, began to appear in the writings of philosophers like William of Ockham. However most "ordinary people" remained untouched by such writings, as they were unable to read.

'Due process of law'
'Judgement of his peers or by law of the land'

Concepts we'd (hopefully) all recognise today as universal rights, but at the time were not.
It may be that Fereldan and other places in Thedas are similar. Possessing such laws, that as their cultures evolve may one day become what we recognise as human rights.

[Seboist]

I fully expect Cerberus treatment in some form. There was no real difference between Meredith and TIM for instance.

[Plaintiff]

Seboist wrote...

I fully expect Cerberus treatment in some form. There was no real difference between Meredith and TIM for instance.

I can think of at least one. :innocent: