1082 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Plaintiff wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I fully expect Cerberus treatment in some form. There was no real difference between Meredith and TIM for instance.

I can think of at least one. :innocent:

lol.

[billy the squid]

IanPolaris wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

• It has nothing to do with the vast power that is at the tips of an individuals fingers, then right? Mages have an inherrent moral compass that stops them abusing their powers?
  
• The current leader was not a Mage, but learning the abilities of a Reaver isn't normal is it. Consorting with Demons, how did that come about? Through blood magic and Mages. So at some point one of their number was a Mage while iving in a peaceful indoctrinated cult, happy families all the way. Indoctrination tends to do that.
• Yep, mages have free will, which is great. Because some will actually choose to abuse their power. A bomb doesn't choose to decide to topple a government or consort with deamons and use blood magic.

• Actually power has very little to do with it believe it or not.  Not all people desire power.  Some do and some don't.  That's true both of mages and non-mages.  If a mage abuses the power he has, then he or she should be held accountable.  The same applies to a noble that misuses their inherent social power.  What you and everyone else has failed to show is that being a mage makes a person inherently more powerhungry than anyone else.  No one is arguing that those that abuse their power or authority should be held accountable.
• Becoming a Reaver does have to do with drinking the blood of a dragon, but otherwise please stop.  You are just reaching now.  There is no evidence that mages or magic has anything to do with this, and even if it did, there is no evidence in Haven that being a mage is any different than being a mundane when it comes to position in society.  You also have yet to show (other than baldly assert without evidence) that things would be different with regard to mages and mundanes if Haven were not a cult.  There are many things that are reprehensible about Haven but none of them are germane to the issue of whether mages and mundanes can live alongside each other.  Apparently it can be done, so you and the other templar-supporters need to consider this a valid counter-example.
  
• There will always be criminals in any social group.  Given that more damage can be done with magic (a point I do not dispute), then more responsibility and accountability should be demanded. Note this is DIFFERENT from treating mages badly because of what they might do, but rather treating magical crimes more harshly based on what real mage criminals HAVE done.  There is a very important difference here.
  
   

  That old free will chestnut again, when there is no form of restriction of control on mages to centralise them in an area wher  postential problems can be contained. We'll just wait for a body count and say oops, my bad. Bob had a bad day and got possessed.
  
  

No one has advocated no restrictions or control over mages or magic.  This is a strawman.

-Polaris

Pffft Please. Nobles and mundane mortals don't create the same destruction when a mage makes a power play. That's the difference. If a Mage is free to enter politics, push his way into the social hierarchy and intreagues of the nobility, then using magic to his adavantage is a given, like nobles use money and status to assert themselves. The potential destruction is orders of magnitude larger than a normal mortal.

Oh really? Then what does it say about the Rever description being taught by demons? How do people contact demons.... almost exclusively the preserve of magic and mages, isn't it. Arguing from ignorance doesn't impress by the way. Absensce of evidence is not evidence of absensce. Or are we really making the claim that an indoctrinated cult in the middle of the mountains which performs human sacrifice is representative of a system which can be implemented sucessfully in mainstream society, what you have done is pick a single point an say ,look it works, and ignore everything else. 

And what supporters seem to ignore everytime is the purpose of the Circle is to contain the potentially devastating destruction. When things inevitably go wrong. Saying oops, when it does and a body count starts to pile up isn't a recepie for success. Or didn't the Redcliff episode illustrate anything. 

It's not a straw man, in that the restrictions that you assert are wholy unworkable and pose an inherrent risk to everyone else, when things inevitably take a turn from the worse, which they will do. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I fully expect Cerberus treatment in some form. There was no real difference between Meredith and TIM for instance.

I can think of at least one. :innocent:

I can see two.

Meredith is a more "rounded" character.

[Ravensword]

Seboist wrote...

I fully expect Cerberus treatment in some form. There was no real difference between Meredith and TIM for instance.

You would've thought they writers were given plenty of time to write out a complex story w/ complex characters given that level development for the game consisted mostly of copypasta.

Modifié par Ravensword, 06 juin 2013 - 07:56 .

[Seboist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I fully expect Cerberus treatment in some form. There was no real difference between Meredith and TIM for instance.

I can think of at least one. :innocent:

I can see two.

Meredith is a more "rounded" character.

That she is.

[addiction21]

I am rather sure there is a Mass Effect 3 section to the forums...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well, insofar as the games are relevant to each other, I think the discussion can stay here. I really think some of the posters here are overestimating the extent to which that's true, though...

[billy the squid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The concepts of human rights, the right to a hearing, and more (at least in Fereldan) do clearly exist and are held to be the standard.

[Citation Needed]

Loghain saying Howe should've been brought to court for his numerous crimes instead of being butchered, plus Awakening's "Day in Court" quest where whatever the crime committed the person is still allowed to plead their case.

The concepts exist. Their execution is heavily flawed, to the point that they are trampled upon, but Ferelden does acknowledge the existence of these things.

But you're gambling on whether or not you'll be able to act upon those rights you hold.

And they almost always extend to the Nobility, monied merchants and land owners. The, I'd say 95%, of the population existing as pesants on the bottom rung of the ladder and lack any sort of privilige are well and truly screwed. 

Human rights don't exist in Thedas, despite what Polaris has made up, they don't extend further than the upper echelons of society or where the money stops. That is not an representative of a rights system, it's an accurate portrayal of most medieval societies.

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Well, insofar as the games are relevant to each other, I think the discussion can stay here. I really think some of the posters here are overestimating the extent to which that's true, though...

Given the events of Asunder, I fully expect the rebel templars to get the Cerberus treatment.  I could be wrong about this, but that is my best guess.  I also note that this is a reversal of my position pre-Asunder.  Pre-Asunder, I would have figured the mages getting the Cerberus treatment.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

billy the squid wrote...

Human rights don't exist in Thedas, despite what Polaris has made up, they don't extend further than the upper echelons of society or where the money stops. That is not an representative of a rights system, it's an accurate portrayal of most medieval societies.

The concept of human rights do exist and are mentioned many times during the entire series...and yes for peasents too.  I note that the entire Magister Quest in Act 1 of DA2 dealt with human rights of commoners and minority commoners (elves) at that.  I grant that much of Thedas doesn't uphold them very well, but the concept and ideals do exist and are supposed to matter (and thus do matter for gameplay).

-Polaris

[billy the squid]

IanPolaris wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Human rights don't exist in Thedas, despite what Polaris has made up, they don't extend further than the upper echelons of society or where the money stops. That is not an representative of a rights system, it's an accurate portrayal of most medieval societies.

The concept of human rights do exist and are mentioned many times during the entire series...and yes for peasents too.  I note that the entire Magister Quest in Act 1 of DA2 dealt with human rights of commoners and minority commoners (elves) at that.  I grant that much of Thedas doesn't uphold them very well, but the concept and ideals do exist and are supposed to matter (and thus do matter for gameplay).

-Polaris

The concept then is irrelevant as they are utterly trampled. Like many of the concepts in real world medieval society were limited to the upper echelons. If you were a pesant, or a jew, or other social class deemed lower by the ruling class, you were essentially screwed. The concepts existing in the higher echenlons, doesn't make them human rights., because they are not universal, nor universally applied. They are just that, concepts applied on a whim. 

[d-boy15]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Well, insofar as the games are relevant to each other, I think the discussion can stay here. I really think some of the posters here are overestimating the extent to which that's true, though...

Given the events of Asunder, I fully expect the rebel templars to get the Cerberus treatment.  I could be wrong about this, but that is my best guess.  I also note that this is a reversal of my position pre-Asunder.  Pre-Asunder, I would have figured the mages getting the Cerberus treatment.

-Polaris

That would be a dream come true for pro-mage like you...

But if they do that, it will be a wasted potential since they successfully create the conflict that is no right or wrong.
(Not that I'm surprise if they do, another team already done that in ME3)

[Sutamina]

Just to be clear what is your perception of what the "Cerberus treatment" is ? as applied to mages then as applied to templars.

I was under the impression that not all templars think and act exactly alike and not all mages think and act exactly alike. Only some mages and some templars will be extremist enough to fight to the death.

[IanPolaris]

billy the squid wrote...

The concept then is irrelevant as they are utterly trampled. Like many of the concepts in real world medieval society were limited to the upper echelons. If you were a pesant, or a jew, or other social class deemed lower by the ruling class, you were essentially screwed. The concepts existing in the higher echenlons, doesn't make them human rights., because they are not universal, nor universally applied. They are just that, concepts applied on a whim. 

You would be wrong.  It was a moral stance of the First Lord of the Admiralty back in the late 18th century that reversed long standing Royal Navy policies regarding slavery and slavers.  The Royal Navy was hunting down and killing slavers and slave plantations even before the public outcry in Great Britain forced Parliament to outlaw slavery in the 1830s.

My point is that popular perception and the idea of how things ought to be do matter and these concepts clearly come up in Dragon Age, and the Divine (among others) are clearly bothered by them when it comes to the circle system.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Sutamina wrote...

Just to be clear what is your perception of what the "Cerberus treatment" is ? as applied to mages then as applied to templars.

I was under the impression that not all templars think and act exactly alike and not all mages think and act exactly alike. Only some mages and some templars will be extremist enough to fight to the death.

What I and others are calling the "Cerberus" treatment refers to the change in Cerberus from a morally grey/challenged humanity interest group to a full fledged villianous organization worthy of a comic book or bad saturday morning cartoon complete with evil indoctrinated mooks.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

billy the squid wrote...

And they almost always extend to the Nobility, monied merchants and land owners. The, I'd say 95%, of the population existing as pesants on the bottom rung of the ladder and lack any sort of privilige are well and truly screwed.

Alec the Sheepherder was brought before the Seneschal to plead his case. He's the only peasant that committed a crime who was also apprehended that we see, but there could be more. Or there might not be.

To be honest, I won't really delve into a human rights for Thedas discussion too deeply beyond my belief they do exist as a concept but the notion is often circumvented. The idea exists, the implementation doesn't.

Plus, I don't really know what the discussion on human rights came up in regards to beyond Mages and Templars, so I'd simply be arguing on half-knowledge on the matter. My guess is the idea of how it's not right for Mages to be punished for what they are, rather then what they've done.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 juin 2013 - 08:48 .

[TEWR]

Oh really? Then what does it say about the Rever description being taught by demons? How do people contact demons.... almost exclusively the preserve of magic and mages, isn't it. Arguing from ignorance doesn't impress by the way. Absensce of evidence is not evidence of absensce. Or are we really making the claim that an indoctrinated cult in the middle of the mountains which performs human sacrifice is representative of a system which can be implemented sucessfully in mainstream society, what you have done is pick a single point an say ,look it works, and ignore everything else.

It's not just drinking blood. It's ritually preparing blood to drink which changes the nature of the body, granting it abilities and powers (at the cost of sanity down the line) otherwise unseen in normal people.

I doubt it's learned from Demons at all, even if Origins described it as such. There's nothing to support that. Sure, the Reaver Ritual (and Joining Ritual) are blood magic, but of a different sort. Phylacteries are a form of blood magic. Was that learned from Demons too?

Beyond that, the arcane is eternal in the Fade (Torpor remarks on how it's "rare to see two forgotten magicks", forgotten being used in regards to Thedas and not the Fade). So even if Demons could teach the Reaver stuff, that does not mean it was learned from them. Demons are the fastest avenue of learning blood magic, but they are not the only means.

As for Haven, the issue at hand seems to be "Can Mages and non-Mages live together without enslaving one another?". The answer is yes.

If you change that to "Can a society isolated for over one thousand years associate with external societies without resorting to criminal activities without any sort of provocation?" then of course the answer is no if we examine Haven.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

When you keep saying implementation, do you mean Thedans don't actually implement the values they pretend to hold, something that seems logical enough, or is this another thing about the implementation of various things by the devs that you take issue with, this time failing to properly show the extent of philosophical development that can be inferred to have occurred in Thedas.

The former, where Thedas doesn't utilize them properly.

Although I wouldn't mind Bioware showing the extent of philosophical development just a touch more (but I don't need it, I think. Just be nice to see a slightly more progressive society) but what I mean here is nonetheless regarding the former.

Though considering Celene has been cracking down on the slave trade something fierce, perhaps that's a start. It was already illegal in Orlais, yet still widely practiced behind closed doors with other names being used to avoid the slave label, but she's begun to really crack down.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 juin 2013 - 09:01 .

[RobRam10]

Ha Templars as heroes.. if anything the Templars are dutiful Greagoir is a good example of what templars should strive for unlike Meredith who was overzealous due to her traumatizing experience with her sister. As for free mages being portrait as villains well what else can they do? They can't join any society in any Andrastian nation aside from Tevinter without being hunted by the templars, besides is there such a noble goal than freeing the opressed mages from the tyrannical yoke of the Chantry?

[Ravensword]

Sutamina wrote...

Just to be clear what is your perception of what the "Cerberus treatment" is ? as applied to mages then as applied to templars.

I was under the impression that not all templars think and act exactly alike and not all mages think and act exactly alike. Only some mages and some templars will be extremist enough to fight to the death.

The Cerberus treatment is when a smallfaction that is morally grey gets made into a cartoonish organization of evil and a sith empire w/ a mustasche-twirling supervillain in the next game. Extra points for having a vast army and equipment if the faction was had relatively few people and resources.

[KainD]

Ravensword wrote...
The Cerberus treatment is when a smallfaction that is morally grey gets made into a cartoonish organization of evil and a sith empire w/ a mustasche-twirling supervillain in the next game. Extra points for having a vast army and equipment if the faction was had relatively few people and resources.

I don't really get how if cerberus seemed like a grey organisation before ME3, they are not still seen grey in ME3. Both go against some common morals. 
The only problem would be that player has no choice in supporting them, as rpg should give.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your point was to be offensive, and you were trying to provoke me into an argument. That was the entire crux of your post. There was little more to it than that. I'm sure you and I can try to be civil to one another, even if we don't agree on anything.

Given that you are now accusing me of being deliberately offensive and provoking and twisting my words left and right, I'm nto sure I even want to TRY.
You sure as hell don't seem to put any effort.

You mocked me for having brought up Aldenon the Wise in the past, for playing an elven mage, and you claim that my posts supporting mage autonomy from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order are an "agenda". I'm not sure how I could not see your words as "deliberately offensive" and "provoking". You and I disagree. Strongly. That should be the extent of it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, acting as though the expression of a different opinion than yours is an "agenda" doesn't add much to the discussion.

Again, the devil is in the details. In the HOW. In the frequency.

I disagree with you. Frequently. That's it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Death animation has nothing to do with it. It's an issue of Leliana being dead when The Warden kills her, the codex addressing her death, the game coding listing her as dead, and the developers addressing that her coming back to life would be explained in the future.

If Leliana didn't die, then there's nothing to explain; it would basically be no different than the developers handwaving Oghren's death from Origins in Awakening if that was the case, or the demise of Justice in the Dragonbone Wastes in the scenario where he never met Anders because The Warden never recruited him into the rank of the Wardens.

You are wrong on ALL accounts there.

If the player THOUGHT she was dead, then there are things to explain. They went on to explain Anders.
Or they can skip explaining, since they don't really have to.

If the player killed Oghren, no genuine explanation given for his ressurection. Justice can die in the Dragonbone Wastes and Anders may not have been recruited, but no explanation is given as to how the met, especially when the former is technically dead and in the Fade at this point. The developers have gone out of their way to say that Leliana coming back to life will be explained, but whether or not they acknowledge that The Warden killed her in the actual story, even the developers admit that the player could kill her in Origins. I'm honestly not certain why you think that's even debatable.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 06 juin 2013 - 10:52 .

[Star fury]

Ravensword wrote...

The Cerberus treatment is when a smallfaction that is morally grey gets made into a cartoonish organization of evil and a sith empire w/ a mustasche-twirling supervillain in the next game. Extra points for having a vast army and equipment if the faction was had relatively few people and resources.

Cerberus were bad guys in ME1 - everyone and his dog knew about admiral Kahoku's assassination and their immoral expirements. Hell, they even unleashed thresher maws on survivor Shepard. Bioware made them look a lot better in ME2, but they returned to their origins in the last game.
P.S. Did you play ME1? Just saying. 


On the other hand, Templars in DA:O and DA2 differ like normal police(if heavy-handed) and gestapo.