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[dragonflight288]

Technically, demons are merely spirits. They just embody darker human characteristics. Every demon is a spirit but not every spirit is a demon, and all that.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 06 juin 2013 - 09:09 .

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
The concept of human rights do exist and are mentioned many times during the entire series...and yes for peasents too.  I note that the entire Magister Quest in Act 1 of DA2 dealt with human rights of commoners and minority commoners (elves) at that.  I grant that much of Thedas doesn't uphold them very well, but the concept and ideals do exist and are supposed to matter (and thus do matter for gameplay).

-Polaris

The magister dealt with the criminal law and criminal sentencing. Criminal law is orthogonal to any idea of human rights, as is the actual principled basis for a lot of procedural rights (i.e., what you call due process). 

More importantly - and I recognize you don't mention in this post, but you do later on - the elf at issue doesn't get due process, because the elf isn't actually part of the proceeding. Even today, we don't actually give very much suppport to the idea of witness rights.

Beyond that, if you're actually going to talk about legal history, then the kind of procedural protections you seem to think are a modern invention are actually archaic. Historically, for example, the principle against self-incrimination in the common law is ancient, going back to the (I believe) 16th century and the Star Chamber. 

Human rights have to do with the value and sactity of human life, not with procedural legal protections. They are separate things. One isn't proof of the other. 

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

Human rights have to do with the value and sactity of human life, not with procedural legal protections. They are separate things. One isn't proof of the other. 

You didn't listen to the conversation then between the Magister's son and Aveline (to name one).  The entire quest is all about the value of life (human and elven both) under the law.  That makes it very clear that human rights is in fact an aspiration/concept in much of Thedas.

-Polaris

[Ravensword]

Bleachrude wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

The Cerberus treatment is when a smallfaction that is morally grey gets made into a cartoonish organization of evil and a sith empire w/ a mustasche-twirling supervillain in the next game. Extra points for having a vast army and equipment if the faction was had relatively few people and resources.

Cerberus were bad guys in ME1 - everyone and his dog knew about admiral Kahoku's assassination and their immoral expirements. Hell, they even unleashed thresher maws on survivor Shepard. Bioware made them look a lot better in ME2, but they returned to their origins in the last game.
P.S. Did you play ME1? Just saying. 


On the other hand, Templars in DA:O and DA2 differ like normal police(if heavy-handed) and gestapo. 

THIS

I'm always amused by people that say Cerberus was "grey"....it's like they never played ME1

ME1 Cerberus were just a bunch of random mooks for Shepard and co. to shoot at. In ME2, they were shown to be an organization who's goal is human advancement in the galaxy w/ an means-justifies-the-end attitude. In ME3, they essentially became the Galactic Empire despite the fact that in Mass Effect: Retribution they were severly  weekened by Turian raids on their assets and having many of their personnel on the Citadel arrested.

It's clear that BW didn't plan how the entire trilogy would play out and opted to make some random enemy faction in ME1 into one in which they have a clear goal in mind.

Then again, you probably wouldn't care about Cerberus' and TIM's characterization in ME3, b/c you like you villains like your Saturday morning cartoons.

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
You didn't listen to the conversation then between the Magister's son and Aveline (to name one).  The entire quest is all about the value of life (human and elven both) under the law.  That makes it very clear that human rights is in fact an aspiration/concept in much of Thedas.

No, you don't understand. The issue of human rights, as an actual concept and as it historically evolved, is separate from the nature of punishment, things like procedural fairness, or the rights of victims in proceedings. 

The 16th century had sophisticated notions of due process, retributivism justice, and was well on its way to developing a coherent body of precent, but there was no actual notion of human "rights" as a kind of endowment to just treatment in the way that you're talking about.

You can't use the features of the justice system you've identified to draw an inference about social values, basically. 

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You didn't listen to the conversation then between the Magister's son and Aveline (to name one).  The entire quest is all about the value of life (human and elven both) under the law.  That makes it very clear that human rights is in fact an aspiration/concept in much of Thedas.

No, you don't understand. The issue of human rights, as an actual concept and as it historically evolved, is separate from the nature of punishment, things like procedural fairness, or the rights of victims in proceedings. 

The 16th century had sophisticated notions of due process, retributivism justice, and was well on its way to developing a coherent body of precent, but there was no actual notion of human "rights" as a kind of endowment to just treatment in the way that you're talking about.

You can't use the features of the justice system you've identified to draw an inference about social values, basically. 

Yes I can because human rights is the notion that life has value.  It developed alongside judicial punishment (see Nuremberg) and the rights of victims and the right to precedure is very much considered part of the modern notion of human rights.  I don't say that.  Amnesty International does.  I also note that the idea of human rights stems from the idea of natural law and natural rights and that idea is also well developed in Thedas (at least Fereldan and the Free Marches).

Not only that but Haulocast references don't make sense without an advanced concept of human rights but the Dragon Age universe is littered with it.

You are simply wrong.  The concept of human rights does indeed exist and is considered an ideal in most parts of Thedas (and is known enough to be mocked by the Tevinter slavers you meet in DAO)_.

-Polaris

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes I can because human rights is the notion that life has value.  

No, it isn't. I used that phrase to simply, but it seems like that was a mistake. Human rights are a complicated jurisprudential concenpt that involves the idea of significant changes to the way that legal entitlements are dealt with (i.e., entrenchment), a general deontoligical moral philosophy with a social liberal bent, and important ideas of self-determinatiom and inherent dignity. 

Laypeople use human rights to refer to a lot of things, but even the moral theory behind human rights just isn't separable from the practical legal realities that have to exist for the concept to have meaning. 

This just isn't a package of ideas that relates to any of the procedural features of the legal system that are absolutely ancient by comparison.

It developed alongside judicial punishment (see Nuremberg) and the rights of victims and the right to precedure is very much considered part of the modern notion of human rights.  I don't say that.  Amnesty International does.  I also note that the idea of human rights stems from the idea of natural law and natural rights and that idea is also well developed in Thedas (at least Fereldan and the Free Marches).

You're not using the phrase "natural law" right, unless you're trying to reference some notion of entrenched and universal liberal theory of rights, which, no, we don't see any proof of in Thedas.

In fact, the entire political system of Thedas is offensive to the very idea of human rights, because even basic guarantees of self determination don't exist for anyone. What Thedas has is a theory of mutual obligations arising out of master-servant lines, which are quite normatively compassionate but a totally different kind of power structure.

You're just fundamentally ignorant about the law and legal history, and you're conflating ideas that - to an external party - seem to be interrelated when they just aren't. 

A good example is the US Constitution - it uses quite liberal theories of humanity, but it doesn't entrench human right qua human rights at all. 

Not only that but Haulocast references don't make sense without an advanced concept of human rights but the Dragon Age universe is littered with it.

The holocaust references aren't references to anything in universe. They're anvils for the player.

You are simply wrong.  The concept of human rights does indeed exist and is considered an ideal in most parts of Thedas (and is known enough to be mocked by the Tevinter slavers you meet in DAO)_.

You're right. I'm entirely wrong about a concept fundamental to my profession. How silly of me. 

Modifié par In Exile, 07 juin 2013 - 12:06 .

[IanPolaris]

In Exile,

Sorry but the concept of human worth, natural rights, and such do exist many places in Thedas. You can continue to deny it, but that doesn't make it so. In any event, holocaust references are given in the game, and the player is supposed to twig on them. It also means (getting back on topic) that human rights ideas are valid ones to use when discussing the mage circles.

I would submit that you are allowing your own education to confuse you (and that can happen).

-Polaris

Edit PS:  In non-professional fora such as these, rights under the law, due process, the notion that life has value, are all considered part and parcell of human rights.  Same with considering slavery wrong.  It wasn't a sudden thing, but the concepts clearly exist in Thedas.  Trying to argue on hyper-technical terms that what most reasonable people call human rights aren't human rights is sophistry at it's worst.  You can say that it's not practiced but that's not the point.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 07 juin 2013 - 12:30 .

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
Sorry but the concept of human worth, natural rights, and such do exist many places in Thedas.

But that isn't what I denied. What I denied was (i) that all of this taken as a whole doesn't mean a human right; and (ii) you can't conclude that human rights exist from the operation of the criminal justice system and the apparent existence of procedural safeguards.

I would submit that you are allowing your own education to confuse you (and that can happen).

It can, but in this case you're letting your ignorance of the subject matter mislead you. 

As for the Holocaust references, they can't mean anything in Thedas, because they're not refering to anything. In universe, there was no such event, so the "tranquil solution" is a reference to nothing. It's there for the sake of the audience. 

You might very well be right and that Thedas has very sophisticated moral philosophy - views of peopel like Alistair and Wynne are a good example of it - but that doesn't make the things you seem to think are proof of this proof of it. 

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile,

Sorry but the concept of human worth, natural rights, and such do exist many places in Thedas.

Can you post a list of these countries, and societies?

[Ravensword]

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile,

Sorry but the concept of human worth, natural rights, and such do exist many places in Thedas.

Can you post a list of these countries, and societies?

I would like to see this list as well.

[The Hierophant]

Ravensword wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile,

Sorry but the concept of human worth, natural rights, and such do exist many places in Thedas.

Can you post a list of these countries, and societies?

I would like to see this list as well.

All i know for certain is that Orlais, and Tevinter are out of the question.

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile,

Sorry but the concept of human worth, natural rights, and such do exist many places in Thedas.

Can you post a list of these countries, and societies?

They definately exist because we see them in Fereldan, Freemarches (Kirkwall) at the very least.  It's implied to exist (the concepts I mean) in Nevarra and Rivvain as well.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

Apparently slavery is officially outlawed in Ferelden and apparently Orlais too. Seems like that implies there is a right not to be a slave. (apparently)

It's outlawed in all Andrastian Lands as contrary to one's Maker Given Rights (and yes that phrase is uttered more than once in the Dragon Age series).  Slavery is only legal in Tevinter.

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In Exile,

Sorry but the concept of human worth, natural rights, and such do exist many places in Thedas.

Can you post a list of these countries, and societies?

They definately exist because we see them in Fereldan, Freemarches (Kirkwall) at the very least.  It's implied to exist (the concepts I mean) in Nevarra and Rivvain as well.

-Polaris

The concept is limited in Ferelden while Kirkwall is even more so. Rivain leaves a lot to be desired as it's nationalist forces partnered up with the Chantry to execute the population who refused to denounce the Qun. Thedas has a ways to go though in terms of rights.

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...
Thedas has a ways to go though in terms of rights.

I never claimed otherwise, but the concepts and ideals do exist.

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

Even though slavery is not allowed in all Andrastian lands it's used in Antiva by the Crows, while Orlesian nobles like Fiona's former master own them in secret.

*edit*

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 juin 2013 - 03:13 .

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

Even though slavery is allowed in all Andrastian lands it's used in Antiva by the Crows, while Orlesian nobles like Fiona's former master own them in secret.

Slavery is not allowed in Andrastian lands.  Of course the implementation of that is deeply flawed in many places.  The Crows (unsuprisingly) don't follow any law but their own, and their influence in Antiva is too great for anyone else to do anything about it.  Likewise Orlais is notoriously hypocritical about such things.  That doesn't mean that the concepts don't exist even so.

-Polaris

[In Exile]

Filament wrote...

Apparently slavery is officially outlawed in Ferelden and apparently Orlais too. Seems like that implies there is a right not to be a slave. (apparently)

That's not, again legally speaking, the same as a recognition of human rights in the international law, modern social justice sense. 

A good example would that how nothing stops Alistair, for example, from declaring slavery legal and open game for all with, except for the opposition of the landsmeet. But that kind of social pressure is barely a legal system to speak of. 

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

Filament wrote...

Apparently slavery is officially outlawed in Ferelden and apparently Orlais too. Seems like that implies there is a right not to be a slave. (apparently)

That's not, again legally speaking, the same as a recognition of human rights in the international law, modern social justice sense. 

A good example would that how nothing stops Alistair, for example, from declaring slavery legal and open game for all with, except for the opposition of the landsmeet. But that kind of social pressure is barely a legal system to speak of. 

The issue was never if human rights existed in Thedas legally speaking.  That's where you are making your error.  The question was whether or not the concepts existed in Thedas, and it's very clear that they do.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

 But that kind of social pressure is barely a legal system to speak of. 

It can easily develope into one (and IRL it did).  The Royal Navy of Great Britain made the international West African Slave trade de-facto illegal long before Parliament ever officially declared it so.  The Royal Navy did so by the use of naked force but was driven to do so by increasing social pressures in Britain's upper class against slavery (and that got reflected by pressure on and by the Admiralty).

-Polaris

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
The issue was never if human rights existed in Thedas legally speaking.  That's where you are making your error.  The question was whether or not the concepts existed in Thedas, and it's very clear that they do.

That doesn't make sense. You can't separate a right question from a law question. A right is a create of law. So when you ask whether or not Thedas has the concept of a "human right", Thedas needs to have a lot of fundamental ideas of law. 

And more importantly, you made the issue about the law. Let me quote you:

The Magister's Son quest in DA2 says Hi.  In that we clearly find that even elves do technically have the rights of due process and thus the overall concept of human rights does exist.  Implementation is lousy, but the concepts and ideals are there.

Nope.  You are missing my point.  The Elf Father should have had a reasonable right to due process, but isn't getting itbecause the Magister is misusing his power.  This means that the concept of due process and law (and human rights) is clearly there.  That is something you seem unable or unwilling to admit.  I am not talking about the execution of it, merely the concept.

So you clearly made it about the law, and then you drew inferences about human rights from due process. Which is wrong. 

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
It can easily develope into one (and IRL it did).  The Royal Navy of Great Britain made the international West African Slave trade de-facto illegal long before Parliament ever officially declared it so.  The Royal Navy did so by the use of naked force but was driven to do so by increasing social pressures in Britain's upper class against slavery (and that got reflected by pressure on and by the Admiralty).

That's not what I referenced. Fiat decrees by a King aren't "rule of law', so speaking about rights is nonsense in this kind of regime. You don't have entrenched rights in that case - you have the whims of an autocrat, which can mean either the king himself or the oligarchy of nobles. 

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The issue was never if human rights existed in Thedas legally speaking.  That's where you are making your error.  The question was whether or not the concepts existed in Thedas, and it's very clear that they do.

That doesn't make sense. You can't separate a right question from a law question. A right is a create of law. So when you ask whether or not Thedas has the concept of a "human right", Thedas needs to have a lot of fundamental ideas of law. 

Absolutely I can!  This is what I mean by your education getting in your way.  The challenge was re the mage circle was that I wasn't allowed to talk about human rights because there was no such thing in Thedas.  That isn't true.  The concept of human rights clearly does exist, and if the concept doesn't exist then it never would have become enshrined in law IRL either.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but this is sheer sophistry on your part.

And more importantly, you made the issue about the law. Let me quote you:

The Magister's Son quest in DA2 says Hi.  In that we clearly find that even elves do technically have the rights of due process and thus the overall concept of human rights does exist.  Implementation is lousy, but the concepts and ideals are there.

[color=rgb(170,170,170)">Nope.  ]because the Magister is misusing his power.[/color]  This means that the concept of due process and law (and human rights) is clearly there.  That is something you seem unable or unwilling to admit.  I am not talking about the execution of it, merely the concept.

So you clearly made it about the law, and then you drew inferences about human rights from due process. Which is wrong. 

No I'm not.  I am showing how in the game the concepts we associate with human rights are alive and well and do exist and (in this case) DO apply to the law as it should be applied.  Other posters showed other examples (for example the fact that slavery and the slave trade is illegal outside of Tevinter).

All I have to do is show that the moral concepts exist for the purposes of what I needed to show, and I have.

-Polaris