1082 réponses à ce sujet

[Nole]

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

Why not kill everyone then? Then the entire world will be safe.

-Polaris

I never said anything about kill. I said that the mages can't be treated as normal people, because they aren't normal people, and the Circle is necessary.

[IanPolaris]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I'm just tried of this stupid false dicotomy that either all templars are evil, or all mages are good, or vice versa. Why is it hard to accept that there are two sides, both good and both bad, and just accept that it's not an easy to solve problem? It's all just infuriating to read that I almost question weather abandoning this forum until the games release might be the saner option.

I don't in fact think that all Templars are evil and all mages are good.  I think they are both human with very real human strengths and weaknessess.  However, I do think the Templar Order as it was used to enforce the circles WAS an fundamentally evil organization.  I note that good people can do bad things for what they think are the best of reasons all the time.

The issue I take is a larger meta-storytelling issue.  I believe that fundamentally DG and Bioware failed when constructing this  part of the Dragon Age universe.  I believe the intent was to make an interesting tension between security and freedom (which was very much in vogue post 9/11) but ultimately failed to make this a grey (or even very interesting) choice.    Basically if you are going to deny a group of people their basic freedoms and put them into a prison for what they are, then that reason had better be ABSOLUTELY COMPELLING (as in, millions of  people will absolutely due compelling) if it's going to be anything like a grey and difficult ethical choice.

The problem is that the supposed dangers that mages and magic presnets as it's depicted in DAO (which sets the lore standard) don't even come close to this standard (and honestly even the DA2 depiction doesn't...and Meredith destroyes her entire moral case by wanting to annul an entire circle for something they didn't even DO...which is not a grey choice at all...it is flat out black and reprehensible period.  End. Of. Discussion.)

-Polaris

[Cainhurst Crow]

I apologize, Ian Polaris,  that last outburst was more me thinking aloud than directed at anyone specifically.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 30 mai 2013 - 10:37 .

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

Why not kill everyone then? Then the entire world will be safe.

-Polaris

Nah the mages would only auto revive. All you need to do is have someone create a working Eluvian, then use it to travel to Earth-616 and beg S.H.I.E.L.D to police Thedas. See problem solved.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 30 mai 2013 - 10:38 .

[IanPolaris]

WittingEight65 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

Why not kill everyone then? Then the entire world will be safe.

-Polaris

I never said anything about kill. I said that the mages can't be treated as normal people, because they aren't normal people, and the Circle is necessary.

I never said that you did.  I was just taking your position to it's logical conclusion.  If safety is all that matters, and it's alright to imprison people for no reason at all (because they aren't real poeple...and Cullen outright says this), then take it all the way.  Kill 'em all.  The Maker will sort it out.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You know, I bet the tevinter imperium has a higher fatality rate than the circles do, and a higher abomination rate as well. That society doesn't seem like one who would tolerate a mage too weak to hold their own against a demon either.

Not saying that makes the circles better, but I thought I'd bring up an interesting discussion point about alternative systems.

Actually Tevinter does use the circle system.  The only difference is that the Magisters call the shots and run the Tevinter Chantry, but if you aren't a Magister, then you are probably worse off as a mage in Tevinter than other Andrastian lands.

-Polaris

[Cainhurst Crow]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I'm just tried of this stupid false dicotomy that either all templars are evil, or all mages are good, or vice versa. Why is it hard to accept that there are two sides, both good and both bad, and just accept that it's not an easy to solve problem? It's all just infuriating to read that I almost question weather abandoning this forum until the games release might be the saner option.

I don't in fact think that all Templars are evil and all mages are good.  I think they are both human with very real human strengths and weaknessess.  However, I do think the Templar Order as it was used to enforce the circles WAS an fundamentally evil organization.  I note that good people can do bad things for what they think are the best of reasons all the time.

The issue I take is a larger meta-storytelling issue.  I believe that fundamentally DG and Bioware failed when constructing this  part of the Dragon Age universe.  I believe the intent was to make an interesting tension between security and freedom (which was very much in vogue post 9/11) but ultimately failed to make this a grey (or even very interesting) choice.    Basically if you are going to deny a group of people their basic freedoms and put them into a prison for what they are, then that reason had better be ABSOLUTELY COMPELLING (as in, millions of  people will absolutely due compelling) if it's going to be anything like a grey and difficult ethical choice.

The problem is that the supposed dangers that mages and magic presnets as it's depicted in DAO (which sets the lore standard) don't even come close to this standard (and honestly even the DA2 depiction doesn't...and Meredith destroyes her entire moral case by wanting to annul an entire circle for something they didn't even DO...which is not a grey choice at all...it is flat out black and reprehensible period.  End. Of. Discussion.)

-Polaris

I do suppose that is fair, though I felt the message was conveyed well. Mages when training can't control their powers,  and the result of an abomination allowed to stay in this world or even a maleficarum would be a monumental threat to everyone. And because you can't simply control mages and make them not a threat like you can normal people by removing their weapons, and the completely immense scale of difference between what a normal person can do versus what a mage can do, than it becomes neccisary to take steps to try and protect people from rouge mages, and mages from the wrath of fearful, angry people.

I think what bioware attempted in DA2 was to show that both sides are corruptible, but I will grant you, it could have been done much better than it was. I see your point, and while I disagree, I still repsect your opinion and can see where your coming from with it.

[Twisted Path]

Do hope they drop the emphasis on the templar/mage dynamic in the next game. It was always one of the least interesting parts of the Dragon Age setting and it's not nearly as morally ambiguous a situation as the writers seem to think it is.

[Nole]

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

Why not kill everyone then? Then the entire world will be safe.

-Polaris

I never said anything about kill. I said that the mages can't be treated as normal people, because they aren't normal people, and the Circle is necessary.

I never said that you did.  I was just taking your position to it's logical conclusion.  If safety is all that matters, and it's alright to imprison people for no reason at all (because they aren't real poeple...and Cullen outright says this), then take it all the way.  Kill 'em all.  The Maker will sort it out.

-Polaris

My logical conclusion is to let them live, but isolated from the rest of the people and with restrictions.

[Cainhurst Crow]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You know, I bet the tevinter imperium has a higher fatality rate than the circles do, and a higher abomination rate as well. That society doesn't seem like one who would tolerate a mage too weak to hold their own against a demon either.

Not saying that makes the circles better, but I thought I'd bring up an interesting discussion point about alternative systems.

Actually Tevinter does use the circle system.  The only difference is that the Magisters call the shots and run the Tevinter Chantry, but if you aren't a Magister, then you are probably worse off as a mage in Tevinter than other Andrastian lands.

-Polaris

I thought they practically abandonded the circle when they formed the black chantry. Learn something new every day. Though I do agree with you there. Challenges to the death can be issued between mages, and no magister would suffer a potential threat to their power to last long. I suspect a lot of in-fighting and assassinations take place while students are learning their basics, even by fellow students.

[n7stormrunner]

The Hierophant wrote...

Nah the mages would only auto revive. All you need to do is have someone create a working Eluvian, then use it to travel to Earth-616 and beg S.H.I.E.L.D to police Thedas. See problem solved.

only if nick fury is the one in charge and thats only a maybe... no just no if tony stark is in charge.

[Chiramu]

Both sides are warmongering ****s imo. I want to be a mage to sit back and enjoy the show.

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Templars apparently have no effective oversight.  If the Templars were clearly and pointedly held accountable for their deeds (good and bad), it might have been a different story, but that's not the story we've been told.
-Polaris

There's no way to create an effective framework of oversight, really. We could have a more developed punitive system... maybe, but the power dynamics at issue and the operation of the Cirlce is such that it's inherently prone to abuses, even if you try and design some procedural framework to prosecute templars. 

Mage freedom is all about who you believe has to suffer - the mundanes, or the mages. 

[K_Tabris]

WittingEight65 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

Why not kill everyone then? Then the entire world will be safe.

-Polaris

I never said anything about kill. I said that the mages can't be treated as normal people, because they aren't normal people, and the Circle is necessary.

In Tevinter, it's "abnormal" not to be magical, and mages hold the power/ have the culturally dominant position.  To a point, all perceptions of mages can be boiled down to what is socially constructed by the populace. In Asunder, some of the mages believe that a form of revolution can chage their lot as well as change social perceptions of their people. and that is why they support the revolt. Others want the power.

Mages don't need to be locked up in a Circle; it is believed they need to be because people fear their power. It all depends on what the people of Thedas want to do with mages and magical ability, and right now it is to suppress it. As we see in Kirkwall and the Ferelden and Orlesian Circles, keeping mages on a leash does not work to the benefit of all (this is debateable, but I will leave it at that for now). The Qunari further imprison their mages and so it becomes a horrid existence for them. Finally, we see the mages of Tevinter hold all the power and get drunk on that power, sometimes doing horrible things, resorting to blood magic and who knows what else.  But that is not necessarily the case across the board (again, we don't know this for sure, but if we do, someone please enlighten me?)

A balance needs to be struck. We just don't know yet if that will be possible within the confines of the next game.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If mindcontrol magic and bloodmagic were as powerful as the chantry traditionally wants us to think and if abominations were as common and destructive as the chantry wants us to think then either:
-Polaris

The Chantry doesn't argue that abominations are common. The argument is "Thank The Maker they're rare, now let's help keep them that way and make it more so."

Except the Chantry has never even tried to prove in an objective and quantative matter that the circle system actually reduced the rate of abominations and deaths from them.  They assert that this is so, but they never prove it, and there is a lot of at least suggestive and compelling indications that says that it probably isn't true.

You're going to have to be more specific there.

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The Templars apparently have no effective oversight.  If the Templars were clearly and pointedly held accountable for their deeds (good and bad), it might have been a different story, but that's not the story we've been told.
-Polaris

There's no way to create an effective framework of oversight, really. We could have a more developed punitive system... maybe, but the power dynamics at issue and the operation of the Cirlce is such that it's inherently prone to abuses, even if you try and design some procedural framework to prosecute templars. 

Mage freedom is all about who you believe has to suffer - the mundanes, or the mages. 

I reject the notion that mage freedom is a zero sum game, and given past histories and the fact that other societies (including Andrastian ones up to about 200 years after the Andraste's death) function with mages living in society, I believe it is reasonable to think that it's not in fact a zero sum game.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You're going to have to be more specific there.

The modern age in Thedas has lasted 940 years.  The circle is (iirc) only about 700-800 years old.  Futhermore we know that the old Inquistors kept records, and we definately know that Ancient Tevinter did.

Where are the rates of abominations and per anumum expected deaths and damages from abominations pre and post circle?  Where is the analysis of conditions or localities where more or fewer abominations are likely to be found?

Basically where's the beef!?

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

Why not kill everyone then? Then the entire world will be safe.

-Polaris

I never said anything about kill. I said that the mages can't be treated as normal people, because they aren't normal people, and the Circle is necessary.

I never said that you did.  I was just taking your position to it's logical conclusion.  If safety is all that matters, and it's alright to imprison people for no reason at all (because they aren't real poeple...and Cullen outright says this), then take it all the way.  Kill 'em all.  The Maker will sort it out.
-Polaris

Actually, no, you're turning his position illogical. Part of this lack of logic is the fact that the mages (ideally Harrowed) are needed to serve as a counterbalance to the Tevinter Circles, and the Qunari gaatlok and sarebas. If you disarm yourself magically, you're as good as surrendering to whichever strikes first. Unless you think the Tevinters and Qunari can be persuaded to limit these weapons? Then there's the fact that this means mages have an ironclad reason not to cooperate. There is an okay argument that a mage should just turn himself in to a Templar who wants to put him in the Circle. (Edit: Assuming its not run directly by Lambert or Meredith.) Even if I agreed there was a decent argument that a mage should allow a Templar to kill him outright, (I do not) the Templar has no reason to expect a mage to care. Nor would the mages friends and family be likely to accept this. And Maker help Thedas if this succeeds despite all of this, because the Wardens need mages in order to perform the Joining and fight emisarries. None of this is a problem with the original argument. 

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 11:02 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You're going to have to be more specific there.

The modern age in Thedas has lasted 940 years.  The circle is (iirc) only about 700-800 years old.  Futhermore we know that the old Inquistors kept records, and we definately know that Ancient Tevinter did.

Where are the rates of abominations and per anumum expected deaths and damages from abominations pre and post circle?  Where is the analysis of conditions or localities where more or fewer abominations are likely to be found?

Basically where's the beef!?

-Polaris

I meant that you haven't cited evidence that you're right, despite claiming to have some.

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

Why not kill everyone then? Then the entire world will be safe.

-Polaris

I never said anything about kill. I said that the mages can't be treated as normal people, because they aren't normal people, and the Circle is necessary.

I never said that you did.  I was just taking your position to it's logical conclusion.  If safety is all that matters, and it's alright to imprison people for no reason at all (because they aren't real poeple...and Cullen outright says this), then take it all the way.  Kill 'em all.  The Maker will sort it out.
-Polaris

Actually, no, you're turning his position illogical. Part of this lack of logic is the fact that the mages (ideally Harrowed) are needed to serve as a counterbalance to the Tevinter Circles, and the Qunari gaatlok and sarebas. If you disarm yourself magically, you're as good as surrendering to whichever strikes first. Unless you think the Tevinters and Qunari can be persuaded to limit these weapons? Then there's the fact that this means mages have an ironclad reason not to cooperate. There is an okay argument that a mage should just turn himself in to a Templar who wants to put him in the Circle. Even if I agreed there was a decent argument that a mage should allow a Templar to kill him outright, (I do not) the Templar has no reason to expect a mage to care. Nor would the mages friends and family be likely to accept this. And Maker help Thedas if this succeeds despite all of this, because the Wardens need mages in order to perform the Joining and fight emisarries. None of this is a problem with the original argument. 

Actually you aren't taking it far enough.  I am not saying kill all mages.  I am saying if you want to use the same logic, then you should kill every sentient being on Thedas.  If everyone is dead then everyone is safe because there will be no one left to endanger anyone and no one left to endanger.

-Polaris

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually you aren't taking it far enough.  I am not saying kill all mages.  I am saying if you want to use the same logic, then you should kill every sentient being on Thedas.  If everyone is dead then everyone is safe because there will be no one left to endanger anyone and no one left to endanger.

-Polaris

And nobody left to enjoy the safety. How do you think that's logical?

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I meant that you haven't cited evidence that you're right, despite claiming to have some.

Nope.  The burden of proof is on those that would impose sanctions on a group of people for what they are rather than what they've done.  What I am saying is that if the Chanty wants to claim that mages are too dangerous to not put in circles and the circles make everyone safer, then they need to prove this.

The burden of proof is on the side making the positive claim, and the positive claim is that mages are too dangerous to be treated like people and that the circle system is the best solution.  That's an extraordinary claim.  It needs extraordinary evidence.

-Polaris

P.S.  I've never claimed I had data regardless.  I merely note that other societies (in fact all societies up to 800 years ago or so) survived just fine without segretating mages, so mages can't be that dangerous or civilization wouldn't even exist in Thedas.

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

What is the evidence of abuse in Ferelden?

There is a lot of torture equipment you find for one, then there is Anders descriptions in DAA for another (now admittedly Anders is biased but still with a Templar like Ryloc....), there is also the codex entry you find the tower that doesn't paint even Fereldan's templars in a very good light (regarding weapons training), then there is the Templar Dweeb who gets seduced by the Desire Demon (but apparently before then did act inappropriately in front of both mages and recruits....but admittedly Gregoire DOES discipline him).  Then there is the Jowan incident.  Yes we know Jowan was guilty but only ex-post facto.

Mind you, Fereldan is probably the best circle to be in if you are a mage in Thedas, but that doesn't make it a picnic.  [Heck even Ser Cullen in DAO, mage's origin alludes to some bad attitudes within Templar ranks regarding killing and abusing mages.]

-Polaris

We never see nor hear of any torture equipment being used.
I will give you Ryloc.
The weapons training codex doesn't give a reason for the Templar's side though.  It's just 'no'.  And I would hardly consider not granting mages weapon training an abuse.
Templar Dweeb was disciplined.
Jowan was a blood mage, was breaking vows/regulation with Lily (which Irving knew about), and being very suspicious.  In fact, it is entirely possible that Irving knew that Jowan was guilty and was setting the PC up; his notes more or less admit that he is helping to out blood mages.

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
I reject the notion that mage freedom is a zero sum game, and given past histories and the fact that other societies (including Andrastian ones up to about 200 years after the Andraste's death) function with mages living in society, I believe it is reasonable to think that it's not in fact a zero sum game.

-Polaris

Other socities that we've seen are all mageocracies, to one extent or another. In Rivain, the Seers are leaders and revered. Assuming that the society is functional and that no problems arise ever, there's still the fact that there's a hardline caste system in place. The Dalish work around the same system - the mundanes are let by the absolute rule of the mages. Tevinter is, well, Tevinter. 

We've never seen a society in Thedas were the mages aren't subjugated or the de facto leaders of society. 

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually you aren't taking it far enough.  I am not saying kill all mages.  I am saying if you want to use the same logic, then you should kill every sentient being on Thedas.  If everyone is dead then everyone is safe because there will be no one left to endanger anyone and no one left to endanger.

-Polaris

And nobody left to enjoy the safety. How do you think that's logical?

It's perfectly logical in the coldest, most mathematical sense.  It's abhorrent and immoral, but it is perfectly logical.  Zero is a valid number and the empty set is a valid set.

-Polaris