1082 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

n7stormrunner wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Nah the mages would only auto revive. All you need to do is have someone create a working Eluvian, then use it to travel to Earth-616 and beg S.H.I.E.L.D to police Thedas. See problem solved.

only if nick fury is the one in charge and thats only a maybe... no just no if tony stark is in charge.

Actually it's Norman Osborn...

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I reject the notion that mage freedom is a zero sum game, and given past histories and the fact that other societies (including Andrastian ones up to about 200 years after the Andraste's death) function with mages living in society, I believe it is reasonable to think that it's not in fact a zero sum game.

-Polaris

Other socities that we've seen are all mageocracies, to one extent or another. In Rivain, the Seers are leaders and revered. Assuming that the society is functional and that no problems arise ever, there's still the fact that there's a hardline caste system in place. The Dalish work around the same system - the mundanes are let by the absolute rule of the mages. Tevinter is, well, Tevinter. 

We've never seen a society in Thedas were the mages aren't subjugated or the de facto leaders of society. 

Not true.  The Andraste Cultists (and apparently this was the norm for the early cults of Andraste) of Haven were led by a Warrior (a Reaver in fact, Father Kolgrim) but mages were allowed to live besides mundanes.  Likewise the ancient Almarri and Avvar along with the modern Chasind have mages that act with mundanes and share power. 

The Dalish also have both mundanes and mages in positions of power and authority.

Bottom line, you are wrong about this.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

Actually, the Haven Cult was led by a Dragon and the highest level of Dalish power (Keeper) *is* mage only.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually you aren't taking it far enough.  I am not saying kill all mages.  I am saying if you want to use the same logic, then you should kill every sentient being on Thedas.  If everyone is dead then everyone is safe because there will be no one left to endanger anyone and no one left to endanger.

-Polaris

And nobody left to enjoy the safety. How do you think that's logical?

It's perfectly logical in the coldest, most mathematical sense.  It's abhorrent and immoral, but it is perfectly logical.  Zero is a valid number and the empty set is a valid set.

-Polaris

Logic isn't math, and trying to reduce it to such can easily steer you wrong. Thank you for providing a perfect example.

[Lulupab]

Lol Polaris posts a comment every time I want to and almost says exactly what I'm going to in regard to a certain post made by another member. Its actually creepy cause it happened 4 times already in this very thread.

[Lulupab]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually, the Haven Cult was led by a Dragon and the highest level of Dalish power (Keeper) *is* mage only.

The Dalish believe all elves of old time had magic therefore the Dalish with magic are closer to the past or at least the Dalish think that way

[The Hierophant]

Rassler wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually, the Haven Cult was led by a Dragon and the highest level of Dalish power (Keeper) *is* mage only.

The Dalish believe all elves of old time had magic therefore the Dalish with magic are closer to the past or at least the Dalish think that way

How does that change the fact that only a mage is considered the leader of a clan?

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually, the Haven Cult was led by a Dragon and the highest level of Dalish power (Keeper) *is* mage only.

No, the Haven Cult was led by Kolgrim.  There is no evidence that the High Dragon led the cultists whatsoever.  Furthermore the Guardian of the Ashes also identifies Kolgrim as the leader of the Cultists (and the High Dragon as a more convenient figure than the missing Andraste).

According to Dalish lore magic is the birthright of ALL elves, and decisions are made based on the concensus of the eldars.  The Keeper may be first among equals and his or her voice may be the most respected, but it's NOT a magocracy.  Just because you are a mage does not give you any special standing with the Dalish.  It only means you are eligible to be a First. 

A magocracy would be a society where having magic would automatically grant posiiton and status, and there is no evidence this is true for the Dalish.  You have to earn a position as First against other candidates..and having magic only gets you in that particular door.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Logic isn't math, and trying to reduce it to such can easily steer you wrong. Thank you for providing a perfect example.

Actually Math is codified logic.

-Polaris

[Nole]

KallianaTabris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

If the villain of the comic had not been a mage, then he wouldn't have been able to bring so much chaos, that's the point. That's why mages can't be treated as normal people and they need to be imprisoned in the Circle, it's just too much the risk of let them to live free.

Why not kill everyone then? Then the entire world will be safe.

-Polaris

I never said anything about kill. I said that the mages can't be treated as normal people, because they aren't normal people, and the Circle is necessary.

In Tevinter, it's "abnormal" not to be magical, and mages hold the power/ have the culturally dominant position.  To a point, all perceptions of mages can be boiled down to what is socially constructed by the populace. In Asunder, some of the mages believe that a form of revolution can chage their lot as well as change social perceptions of their people. and that is why they support the revolt. Others want the power.

Mages don't need to be locked up in a Circle; it is believed they need to be because people fear their power. It all depends on what the people of Thedas want to do with mages and magical ability, and right now it is to suppress it. As we see in Kirkwall and the Ferelden and Orlesian Circles, keeping mages on a leash does not work to the benefit of all (this is debateable, but I will leave it at that for now). The Qunari further imprison their mages and so it becomes a horrid existence for them. Finally, we see the mages of Tevinter hold all the power and get drunk on that power, sometimes doing horrible things, resorting to blood magic and who knows what else.  But that is not necessarily the case across the board (again, we don't know this for sure, but if we do, someone please enlighten me?)

A balance needs to be struck. We just don't know yet if that will be possible within the confines of the next game.

The problem is that in Thedas, the Chantry and the Templars tried to suppress the mages but they still granted them too many privileges for someone that is supposed to be imprisoned, that's why it didn't work. I mean, if you are going to suppress them, do it right and treat them like the Qunaris do to their mages. They suppressed the mages the right way.

That said, I don't think the mages should be treated like prisoners that have commited a crime, but they have to be imprisoned in a way so they can be isolated from the rest of the world and train them with more discipline and in a more severe way.

[n7stormrunner]

*coughs*

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Dragon_Cults

please read

[Knight of Dane]

IanPolaris wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

When are Templars ever good guys?

Ser Otto in Denerim's alienage comes immediately to mind. Edit:  Also Knight Commander Gregoire is someone I would generally regard as a good guy (more good than bad anyways).

-Polaris

Practical certainly. He didn't call the annulment because lulz.

[IanPolaris]

n7stormrunner wrote...

*coughs*

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Dragon_Cults

please read

Which does not disprove my point about Father Kolgrim being the leader of Haven.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually, the Haven Cult was led by a Dragon and the highest level of Dalish power (Keeper) *is* mage only.

No, the Haven Cult was led by Kolgrim.  There is no evidence that the High Dragon led the cultists whatsoever.  Furthermore the Guardian of the Ashes also identifies Kolgrim as the leader of the Cultists (and the High Dragon as a more convenient figure than the missing Andraste).

According to Dalish lore magic is the birthright of ALL elves, and decisions are made based on the concensus of the eldars.  The Keeper may be first among equals and his or her voice may be the most respected, but it's NOT a magocracy.  Just because you are a mage does not give you any special standing with the Dalish.  It only means you are eligible to be a First. 

A magocracy would be a society where having magic would automatically grant posiiton and status, and there is no evidence this is true for the Dalish.  You have to earn a position as First against other candidates..and having magic only gets you in that particular door.

-Polaris

It appears more that the military branch is headed by Kolgrim and the civilian populace is headed by the Father at the Church.  Regardless, the Dragon is the idol of the cult, and if she consents to letting her children be slain for her servants, I fail to see how she does not have influence there.

Being a mage in Tevinter only means you are eligible to be a Magister.  You can still be enslaved if you don't.  But if you want to peeve yourself over definitions, by all means, go ahead, you are well aware of what I mean.  Funny you say the Keeper is the First Among Equals*, we have a word for that : princeps.  Which became directly related to what we know today as Emperor. 

But, alright, the Keeper is a first among equals in that there is no check or balance, and the only way to diagree with one (assuming you aren't of another clan) is to leave, what would you like to call it?  A Magical Dictatorship?  That's so much better than a mageocracy?

[Seboist]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

As long as the Qun is portrayed as the ones who will conquer both, I'm all good.

I'm down with the Qun if they handle the mages properly.

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually, the Haven Cult was led by a Dragon and the highest level of Dalish power (Keeper) *is* mage only.

No, the Haven Cult was led by Kolgrim.  There is no evidence that the High Dragon led the cultists whatsoever.  Furthermore the Guardian of the Ashes also identifies Kolgrim as the leader of the Cultists (and the High Dragon as a more convenient figure than the missing Andraste).

According to Dalish lore magic is the birthright of ALL elves, and decisions are made based on the concensus of the eldars.  The Keeper may be first among equals and his or her voice may be the most respected, but it's NOT a magocracy.  Just because you are a mage does not give you any special standing with the Dalish.  It only means you are eligible to be a First. 

A magocracy would be a society where having magic would automatically grant posiiton and status, and there is no evidence this is true for the Dalish.  You have to earn a position as First against other candidates..and having magic only gets you in that particular door.

-Polaris

The codex for the Chasind states that the tribes are ruled by shamans like the Avvars, while the Keepers of the Dalish are soley mages. Only the Dalish Keepers gather together to discuss matters regarding lost artifacts, lore, and the future of their people. Those are positions of leadership that are not granted to mundanes so it's a mageocracy, while Haven isn't as Kolgrim is a reaver instead.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 30 mai 2013 - 11:30 .

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
Not true.  The Andraste Cultists (and apparently this was the norm for the early cults of Andraste) of Haven were led by a Warrior (a Reaver in fact, Father Kolgrim) but mages were allowed to live besides mundanes.  

You're seriously using a society led by a bunch of insane cultists feasting of the blood of a dragon as proof of a society where mages and mundanes collaborate?  

Likewise the ancient Almarri and Avvar along with the modern Chasind have mages that act with mundanes and share power.  

We don't know anything about their society to say that.

The Dalish also have both mundanes and mages in positions of power and authority.

All keepers are mags. 

[Ravensword]

Seboist wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

As long as the Qun is portrayed as the ones who will conquer both, I'm all good.

I'm down with the Qun if they handle the mages properly.

[In Exile]

Rassler wrote...
The Dalish believe all elves of old time had magic therefore the Dalish with magic are closer to the past or at least the Dalish think that way

That's even worse. The Dalish literally believe you're inherently worse as an elf if you're not a mage, and that your destiny as an elf is to become something better - i.e., a mage. It's as offensive as what the Chantry thinks, but in the other direction. 

IanPolaris wrote...

According to Dalish lore magic is the birthright of ALL elves, and decisions are made based on the concensus of the eldars.  The Keeper may be first among equals and his or her voice may be the most respected, but it's NOT a magocracy.  Just because you are a mage does not give you any special standing with the Dalish.  It only means you are eligible to be a First.

LOL... all I can say is LOL. 

The Elders are the Keepers, only mages are eligible to be Keepers, and the Dalish believe that you're inherently less elven if you're not a mage. 

Yeah, that's absolutely not a mageocracy. 

[Boycott Bioware]

One thing i realized just now...Mages always being portrayed "love" Blood Magic, what i mean is, if want more power or want to free from the Templar, Blood Magic is the answer. It is like Blood Magic is what every Mages must have to become more powerful, it allure them, and Mages do anything to get it. Not only that, Mages will need demons to become more powerful or as answer for everything (such as repairing a mirror)

While it not the same with lyrium, never being shown that Templars do anything to get lyrium. It is lyrium that give them power, and make them addicts, but never shown Templars are lyrium crazy. They can manage to control themselves to search for more power.

meredith is the only one who is power hungry, want more power to defeat Mages, she use Red Lyrium sword. But in the game it never shown how greedy Merdith is with power, how hunger she is ant to become more powerful than Mages in which result her to use red lyrium instead of the normal lyrium she consume everyday.

Yes it is like the devs intention to make the players side with Templars....why because they are "Templars" themselves? lol

Anders blowing up a church as the result of never ending conflict. Why there is no Templar doing the same thing such as blowing up Circle tower? maybe some will say Right of Annulment is already extreme, but it never shown in the game. Never shown how Templar kill children Mages either.The last battle in DA2 is not "Right of Annulment" because it is a battle, both side being prepared for a battle, it is a battle, not genocide act of Templar. Right of Annulment is genocidal.

[n7stormrunner]

IanPolaris wrote...

n7stormrunner wrote...

*coughs*

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Dragon_Cults

please read

Which does not disprove my point about Father Kolgrim being the leader of Haven.

-Polaris

it does give the possiblity that he isn't a little more weight then it would otherwise. I personally hope at some point we get a little more infomation about how dragon cults work but thats another topic...

now on topic....  I got nothing I'm still trying to figure out how templars as a whole are good guys in da 2

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It appears more that the military branch is headed by Kolgrim and the civilian populace is headed by the Father at the Church.  Regardless, the Dragon is the idol of the cult, and if she consents to letting her children be slain for her servants, I fail to see how she does not have influence there.

And if you read the wiki entry just above, there is no solid evidence that the High Dragon is anything more than an exceptinally cunning animal.  Certainly in the lore and in the game, there is no evidence that the High Dragon has any leadership role, or any role other than willing symbol (if she is even capable of such....i.e. if she is even sentient).

Being a mage in Tevinter only means you are eligible to be a Magister.  You can still be enslaved if you don't.  But if you want to peeve yourself over definitions, by all means, go ahead, you are well aware of what I mean.  Funny you say the Keeper is the First Among Equals*, we have a word for that : princeps.  Which became directly related to what we know today as Emperor. 

And "Dictator" used to have a completely different meaning during the last days of the Roman Republic?  Your piont is?  First among equals does NOT mean emperor or empress (or princips) regardless of how the words have since evolved. You are now playing word games to evade my point.

But, alright, the Keeper is a first among equals in that there is no check or balance, and the only way to diagree with one (assuming you aren't of another clan) is to leave, what would you like to call it?  A Magical Dictatorship?  That's so much better than a mageocracy?

Nope.  Keeper can and have been overruled, and indeed the hunters can even kill their own keeper if things get dire.  In any event, other elders (like the senior crafter) can defy a Keeper and even leave.  These things are rare, but a Keeper's power is not absolute and most of a Keeper's power come from tradition and respect and not because he or she is a mage.  In fact Merrill flat out tells you that Keepers almost never perform magic openly even within their own encampments.

-Polaris

[Cainhurst Crow]

I would like to be shown a keeper who wasn't a mage, but I can't seem to recall a single one. The keeper in dalish societies is still the one who leads them, even if they don't have the same privilages that a normal leader would hold. It is a very high position of power whose position is controlled by weather or not you were born with magical abilities or not.

But honestly, the only real mageocracy is the tevinter imperium, and we all know how screwed up that place is for non-mages.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 30 mai 2013 - 11:35 .

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...
The codex for the Chasind states that the tribes are ruled by shamans like the Avvars, while the Keepers of the Dalish are soley mages. Only the Dalish Keepers gather together to discuss matters regarding lost artifacts, lore, and the future of their people. Those are positions of leadership that are not granted to mundanes so it's a mageocracy, while Haven isn't as Kolgrim is a reaver instead.

Nope.  It says that the Chasind are ruled by Shamans, but it does not say that all Shamans are mages.

-Polaris