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Please stop portraying templars as heroes and free mages as villians * Major spoilers*


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#151
Cainhurst Crow

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IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
The codex for the Chasind states that the tribes are ruled by shamans like the Avvars, while the Keepers of the Dalish are soley mages. Only the Dalish Keepers gather together to discuss matters regarding lost artifacts, lore, and the future of their people. Those are positions of leadership that are not granted to mundanes so it's a mageocracy, while Haven isn't as Kolgrim is a reaver instead.


Nope.  It says that the Chasind are ruled by Shamans, but it does not say that all Shamans are mages.

-Polaris


So your saying that the shamans aren't magical?

#152
IanPolaris

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

I would like to be shown a keeper who wasn't a mage. The keeper in dalish societies is still the one who leads them, even if they don't have the same privilages that a normal leader would hold. It is a very high position of power that has a arbitrary requierment to it.


The reason for the requirement is explained.  Magic is considered a birthright of the Elves, and Keepers are supposed/expected to reflect the lineage of the old Dalish Nobiity which were mages.

However, just being a mage is no assurance of special treatment with the Dalish.  Too many people have Tevinter on the brain and say "ruler must be mage".---> "Evil Magister, bad!"

It isn't so.

-Polaris

#153
In Exile

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IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  It says that the Chasind are ruled by Shamans, but it does not say that all Shamans are mages.

-Polaris


You're wrong:

Some of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped, their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being entirely (depending on his nature). Some of these traditions are passed down from generation to generation, as with the so-called "witches" of the Chasind wilders or the "shamans" of the Avvar barbarians.



#154
IanPolaris

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
The codex for the Chasind states that the tribes are ruled by shamans like the Avvars, while the Keepers of the Dalish are soley mages. Only the Dalish Keepers gather together to discuss matters regarding lost artifacts, lore, and the future of their people. Those are positions of leadership that are not granted to mundanes so it's a mageocracy, while Haven isn't as Kolgrim is a reaver instead.


Nope.  It says that the Chasind are ruled by Shamans, but it does not say that all Shamans are mages.

-Polaris


So your saying that the shamans aren't magical?


The codex entry doesn't say that all Shamans are magical (it only says that some are).  There are shamans today in many Native American and Amerind tribes.  They weren't mages either.

-Polaris

#155
IanPolaris

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In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  It says that the Chasind are ruled by Shamans, but it does not say that all Shamans are mages.

-Polaris


You're wrong:



[color=rgb(213,212,212)">Some of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped, their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being entirely (depending on his nature). Some of these traditions are passed down from generation to generation, as with the so-called "witches" of the ] wilders or the "shamans" of the [/color]Avvar barbarians.

Nope.  Your quote doesn't say what you think it does.  It proves that there are magical Chasind and Avvar Witches and Shamans, but it doesn't prove that all Chasind Witches and Shamans are mages.  It only points out that both tribes have unique magical traditions.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 30 mai 2013 - 11:39 .


#156
BlueMagitek

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IanPolaris wrote...

And if you read the wiki entry just above, there is no solid evidence that the High Dragon is anything more than an exceptinally cunning animal.  Certainly in the lore and in the game, there is no evidence that the High Dragon has any leadership role, or any role other than willing symbol (if she is even capable of such....i.e. if she is even sentient).

And "Dictator" used to have a completely different meaning during the last days of the Roman Republic?  Your piont is?  First among equals does NOT mean emperor or empress (or princips) regardless of how the words have since evolved. You are now playing word games to evade my point.

Nope.  Keeper can and have been overruled, and indeed the hunters can even kill their own keeper if things get dire.  In any event, other elders (like the senior crafter) can defy a Keeper and even leave.  These things are rare, but a Keeper's power is not absolute and most of a Keeper's power come from tradition and respect and not because he or she is a mage.  In fact Merrill flat out tells you that Keepers almost never perform magic openly even within their own encampments.

-Polaris


Except that Archdemons are also High Dragons.  But please, discriminate against Dragons. 

It legitimately does mean "First Citizen", which IS first among equals.  And again, where are the checks and balances to the Dalish System?  If the only answer is murder, that is not a system of checks and balances, that is called usurping the position, or revolution. 

Again, because this seems to be a difficult concept to wrap your head around, murder is not a system of checks and balances.  Please provide evidence of the Keeper being overruled, and the clan being taken without any sort of murder.  And if I recall, the senior crafter left.

If a society's system of checks and balances consists of leave or murder, then that is not a system of checks and balances

The use of magic by the Keeper isn't the problem, it is that it is only available to Mages.

#157
Jedi Master of Orion

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

I would like to be shown a keeper who wasn't a mage, but I can't seem to recall a single one. The keeper in dalish societies is still the one who leads them, even if they don't have the same privilages that a normal leader would hold. It is a very high position of power whose position is controlled by weather or not you were born with magical abilities or not.

But honestly, the only real mageocracy is the tevinter imperium, and we all know how screwed up that place is for non-mages.


Actually according to a reply I apparently got from Felicia Day to a comment on an episode Dragon Age: Redemption there are Keepers without magic. I don't know if that's true or not because not everyone in the series is 100% accurate but she said she asked about it in her research.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 mai 2013 - 11:42 .


#158
Cainhurst Crow

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IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
The codex for the Chasind states that the tribes are ruled by shamans like the Avvars, while the Keepers of the Dalish are soley mages. Only the Dalish Keepers gather together to discuss matters regarding lost artifacts, lore, and the future of their people. Those are positions of leadership that are not granted to mundanes so it's a mageocracy, while Haven isn't as Kolgrim is a reaver instead.


Nope.  It says that the Chasind are ruled by Shamans, but it does not say that all Shamans are mages.

-Polaris


So your saying that the shamans aren't magical?


The codex entry doesn't say that all Shamans are magical (it only says that some are).  There are shamans today in many Native American and Amerind tribes.  They weren't mages either.

-Polaris


Yes. But there is no magic in this world at all. Dragon ages universe does have magic, witches, wizards, maleficarum, all those people have magic. It would only be logical to assume that because of this, titles from our own cultures who have traditionally been believed to have magic powers, such as shaman, would have them in the dragon age universe.

#159
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Logic isn't math, and trying to reduce it to such can easily steer you wrong. Thank you for providing a perfect example.


Actually Math is codified logic.

-Polaris


The fact remains that they are not equivalent. That's not all logic is: there's also informal fallacies, one of which you presented perfectly. You deliberately provided an argument nobody would accept, knowing it was harder to defend, and tried to pretend you were using his logic. The argument you provide is also illogical on its own merits, since no definition of safety more than 5% of people will accept requires you to let someone kill you.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 mai 2013 - 11:43 .


#160
BlueMagitek

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Are you seriously arguing that Shamans aren't mages? The entire point of a Shaman is to interact with the Spirit World. You know, the Fade. Where Mages are able to craft their domains. If anything, Avvars are probably like Tevinter in that Dreamers are the highest tier of Shaman.

And now *witches* aren't magical. Okay.

#161
Dave of Canada

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Seboist wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

As long as the Qun is portrayed as the ones who will conquer both, I'm all good.


I'm down with the Qun if they handle the mages properly.


Advanced technology, leaves nothing to waste, protects it's people from mages, selective breeding. What's not to like?

#162
The Hierophant

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IanPolaris wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
The codex for the Chasind states that the tribes are ruled by shamans like the Avvars, while the Keepers of the Dalish are soley mages. Only the Dalish Keepers gather together to discuss matters regarding lost artifacts, lore, and the future of their people. Those are positions of leadership that are not granted to mundanes so it's a mageocracy, while Haven isn't as Kolgrim is a reaver instead.


Nope.  It says that the Chasind are ruled by Shamans, but it does not say that all Shamans are mages.

-Polaris

I doubt your theory as shaman indicates a magical healer or someone that communes with spirits (Rivain falls under the last).

#163
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

As long as the Qun is portrayed as the ones who will conquer both, I'm all good.


I'm down with the Qun if they handle the mages properly.


Advanced technology, leaves nothing to waste, protects it's people from mages, selective breeding. What's not to like?


Sex when and with who you're told to, not when and with who you want. The job you are told to do, regardless of whether or not you enjoy it. Being required to accept this based on flawed analogies that even a basic logic class would require you to throw out.

#164
IanPolaris

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BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

And if you read the wiki entry just above, there is no solid evidence that the High Dragon is anything more than an exceptinally cunning animal.  Certainly in the lore and in the game, there is no evidence that the High Dragon has any leadership role, or any role other than willing symbol (if she is even capable of such....i.e. if she is even sentient).

And "Dictator" used to have a completely different meaning during the last days of the Roman Republic?  Your piont is?  First among equals does NOT mean emperor or empress (or princips) regardless of how the words have since evolved. You are now playing word games to evade my point.

Nope.  Keeper can and have been overruled, and indeed the hunters can even kill their own keeper if things get dire.  In any event, other elders (like the senior crafter) can defy a Keeper and even leave.  These things are rare, but a Keeper's power is not absolute and most of a Keeper's power come from tradition and respect and not because he or she is a mage.  In fact Merrill flat out tells you that Keepers almost never perform magic openly even within their own encampments.

-Polaris


Except that Archdemons are also High Dragons.  But please, discriminate against Dragons. 


Actually we don't know that Archdemons are corrupted High Dragons only that they sure look like them.  In fact we know that there is a lot more to it than that.  Otherwise the High Dragons we find in the Dragon Wastes in DAA surrounded by Darkspawn would have been Archdemons but they weren't.

An Archdemon is a corrupted old god.  Period.  You can not claim that all high dragons are old gods.

It legitimately does mean "First Citizen", which IS first among equals.  And again, where are the checks and balances to the Dalish System?  If the only answer is murder, that is not a system of checks and balances, that is called usurping the position, or revolution. 


So what?  Dictator and Emperor, and even Kaiser used to mean very different things too.  You are playing word games at this point.  The Dalish system is a tribal system which means the necessary checks and balances are cultural and probably unwritten for the most part.  That doesn't make them any less real.  For example we know that the Dalish Warden's father was a keeper, but he couldn't marry the mother of his child because the clan dissapproved.  That is a case right there that shows the Keeper's power is not absolute.  We also know in Act 3 of DA2, that the Chief Crafter is telling his people to pack up and leave and to hell with the Keeper.  That also clearly shows the limations of Keeper power.

Again, because this seems to be a difficult concept to wrap your head around, murder is not a system of checks and balances.  Please provide evidence of the Keeper being overruled, and the clan being taken without any sort of murder.  And if I recall, the senior crafter left.


Which means the Keeper's power was not absolute.


If a society's system of checks and balances consists of leave or murder, then that is not a system of checks and balances


Sure it is. If enough people disagree with you, you can't survive alone.  The Dalish are painfully well aware of this.  The Keeper may be the most important person in a Dalish Tribe, but his or her power is far from absolute.

-Polaris

#165
Jedi Master of Orion

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IanPolaris wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually you aren't taking it far enough.  I am not saying kill all mages.  I am saying if you want to use the same logic, then you should kill every sentient being on Thedas.  If everyone is dead then everyone is safe because there will be no one left to endanger anyone and no one left to endanger.

-Polaris


And nobody left to enjoy the safety. How do you think that's logical?


It's perfectly logical in the coldest, most mathematical sense.  It's abhorrent and immoral, but it is perfectly logical.  Zero is a valid number and the empty set is a valid set.

-Polaris


No, you're twisting his position into a strawman. Nobody was talking about the problem like it was a mathemetical equation about numbers instead of people.  Killing everyone in the world is not the logical conclusion of imprisoning mages.

If the premise of his argument is that imprisoning mages makes the most people in the world safer, then it's necessary for them to be alive for it to be true. So an empty set is not a valid set in this case. If they are dead they are not safe. Nobody arguing for any templar perspective considers the people of thedas being dead a legitiamtely desireable outcome. If zero was considered a valid number of people to be left alive, then why would anyone worry about mages beeing free at all?

You might think it is wrong to keep a minority of people locked away (in various conditions) to safeguard a majority, and maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. But not because it must somehow also lead to the insane postion that killing everyone in the world is desirable.

#166
In Exile

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IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  Your quote doesn't say what you think it does.  It proves that there are magical Chasind and Avvar Witches and Shamans, but it doesn't prove that all Chasind Witches and Shamans are mages.  It only points out that both tribes have unique magical traditions.


It tells us that Chasind hedge mages are called "witches" by the Chasind and that Avvar hedge mages are called "shamans" by the Avvar. 

There is nothing in that codex to suggest that the name shaman applies to a non-mage. In fact, it would be incredibly stupid. You'd use the same word to refer to two logical opposites on your view. 

We can dismiss it easily as absurd, i.e., proof by contradiction. Or otherwise say it's necessarily implied by the text. Basically, you're just being intellectually bankrupt. 

#167
Cainhurst Crow

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I would like to be shown a keeper who wasn't a mage, but I can't seem to recall a single one. The keeper in dalish societies is still the one who leads them, even if they don't have the same privilages that a normal leader would hold. It is a very high position of power whose position is controlled by weather or not you were born with magical abilities or not.

But honestly, the only real mageocracy is the tevinter imperium, and we all know how screwed up that place is for non-mages.


Actually according to a reply I apparently got from Felicia Day to a comment on an episode Dragon Age: Redemption there are Keepers without magic. I don't know if that's true or not because not everyone in the series is 100% accurate but she said she asked about it in her research.


Huh. Imagine that. Okay, I'm willing to admit I was wrong than.

#168
IanPolaris

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

Yes. But there is no magic in this world at all. Dragon ages universe does have magic, witches, wizards, maleficarum, all those people have magic. It would only be logical to assume that because of this, titles from our own cultures who have traditionally been believed to have magic powers, such as shaman, would have them in the dragon age universe.


The key word in all that is "assume". 

-Polaris

#169
garrusfan1

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uh what games have you been playing cause in both games the templars were portrayed as bad for the most part. and uldred was considered evil but the mages that rebelled with them were seen more as trying to leave any way they could even if they had to do something bad. in DA2 templars were seen as flat out evil for the majority. if you remember ser thrask said that the mages were causing trouble because mages were treated so horrible that they had to. then you had people like that guy that wanted to make all mages tranquil and others who liked hurting and killing mages. the mages were seen as bad because they had no choice but to try to leave and do what they could

#170
IanPolaris

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You might think it is wrong to keep a minority of people locked away (in various conditions) to safeguard a majority, and maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. But not because it must somehow also lead to the insane postion that killing everyone in the world is desirable.


Actually it is perfectly logical in a very cold way.  Let's say you have a population with subgroups A,B,C,D,and E all of which are minorities.  If one can justify (and it's easy to justify many things) that A deserves to be 'eliminated' for the safety of the rest, then sometime later, group B can also be targeted and eliminated, and down the line.  Eventually no one is left.

This is why it is unethical to use this rational to lock away/exterminate any group because of what they are rather than what they've done.

-Polaris

#171
IanPolaris

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garrusfan1 wrote...

uh what games have you been playing cause in both games the templars were portrayed as bad for the most part. and uldred was considered evil but the mages that rebelled with them were seen more as trying to leave any way they could even if they had to do something bad. in DA2 templars were seen as flat out evil for the majority. if you remember ser thrask said that the mages were causing trouble because mages were treated so horrible that they had to. then you had people like that guy that wanted to make all mages tranquil and others who liked hurting and killing mages. the mages were seen as bad because they had no choice but to try to leave and do what they could


The big problem (and the Devs admitted they slanted the deck here in DA2) is you only got to hear about Templar abuses off screne, but the crimes, and abuses of evil mages were thrown constantly in your face (Tarhone and Fankenmommy to name two).

-Polaris

#172
Meatbaggins

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There may be examples of individual templars that are heroic, but if you think the Templars as an institution are portrayed in an overly good light, I think that's just your own bias speaking.

#173
Cainhurst Crow

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IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Yes. But there is no magic in this world at all. Dragon ages universe does have magic, witches, wizards, maleficarum, all those people have magic. It would only be logical to assume that because of this, titles from our own cultures who have traditionally been believed to have magic powers, such as shaman, would have them in the dragon age universe.


The key word in all that is "assume". 

-Polaris


Isn't that what we're all doing right now?

#174
BlueMagitek

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IanPolaris wrote...

Actually we don't know that Archdemons are corrupted High Dragons only that they sure look like them.  In fact we know that there is a lot more to it than that.  Otherwise the High Dragons we find in the Dragon Wastes in DAA surrounded by Darkspawn would have been Archdemons but they weren't.

An Archdemon is a corrupted old god.  Period.  You can not claim that all high dragons are old gods.

So what?  Dictator and Emperor, and even Kaiser used to mean very different things too.  You are playing word games at this point.  The Dalish system is a tribal system which means the necessary checks and balances are cultural and probably unwritten for the most part.  That doesn't make them any less real.  For example we know that the Dalish Warden's father was a keeper, but he couldn't marry the mother of his child because the clan dissapproved.  That is a case right there that shows the Keeper's power is not absolute.  We also know in Act 3 of DA2, that the Chief Crafter is telling his people to pack up and leave and to hell with the Keeper.  That also clearly shows the limations of Keeper power.

Which means the Keeper's power was not absolute.

Sure it is. If enough people disagree with you, you can't survive alone.  The Dalish are painfully well aware of this.  The Keeper may be the most important person in a Dalish Tribe, but his or her power is far from absolute.

-Polaris

Believe what you will. 

I am playing word games?  "It isn't a mageocracy because of ...~" is far more bankrupt than calling out your term for what it is.  The term you used has been, historically, used as a sham to hide that the person claiming it is doing their best to become autocratic. 

"The Great Leader's power is not absolute because you can always assasinate him or leave the country."  Sadly, that is not the most ridiculous argument I've heard here, but you don't aid it much. 

The Dalish Warden's father was the Keeper of a different Clan than his Mother.  She did not fall under his juridiction.  It would be like the King of Spain trying to order an American citizen around.  He might be King of Spain, but that doesn't mean he has power over the citizen of another nation. 

#175
Cainhurst Crow

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IanPolaris wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

uh what games have you been playing cause in both games the templars were portrayed as bad for the most part. and uldred was considered evil but the mages that rebelled with them were seen more as trying to leave any way they could even if they had to do something bad. in DA2 templars were seen as flat out evil for the majority. if you remember ser thrask said that the mages were causing trouble because mages were treated so horrible that they had to. then you had people like that guy that wanted to make all mages tranquil and others who liked hurting and killing mages. the mages were seen as bad because they had no choice but to try to leave and do what they could


The big problem (and the Devs admitted they slanted the deck here in DA2) is you only got to hear about Templar abuses off screne, but the crimes, and abuses of evil mages were thrown constantly in your face (Tarhone and Fankenmommy to name two).

-Polaris


What about Otto Alrik?