1082 réponses à ce sujet

[KiwiQuiche]

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Lobotomizing someone into being an emotionless  obedient doll with their original mind trapped inside is horrendous and certainly not justifed, no matter what that person has done.

Execution is a far greater mercy.

[sandalisthemaker]

On my first playthrough of DA2, I tried to be as neutral to the mage/templar conflict as I could be, although I was slightly more sympathetic to the mage cause mostly due to Hawke's sister being a mage. In the end, that was why I sided with the mages at the final battle.
During the final battle, viewing it from a neutral angle, I couldn't help but feel that siding with the mages was a huge mistake. I ended up killing more mages and abominations than templars, and the Orsino battle was a real WTF moment.
Now, I only side with the mages when I roleplay a mage freedom fighter, or a blood mage.
Every other time, I side with the Templars.
So basically, OP, I agree with you. I hope there are more sane mages in DA3 that really make it difficult for me to pick a side. I really want to agonize over the decision. I do sympathize with mages, but DA2 made it too easy to side with the Templars at the end, even when trying to remain neutral.

[Plaintiff]

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

[Lt_Riley]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Lobotomizing someone into being an emotionless  obedient doll with their original mind trapped inside is horrendous and certainly not justifed, no matter what that person has done.

Execution is a far greater mercy.

When one commits horrendous acts that put others aside from themselves in danger, one deserves an equally horrendous punishment. Having pity or mercy is optional, but not required in judgement.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

Me neither. But those mages deserve whatever they get, just as long as it isn't rape.

[KiwiQuiche]

Lt_Riley wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Lobotomizing someone into being an emotionless  obedient doll with their original mind trapped inside is horrendous and certainly not justifed, no matter what that person has done.

Execution is a far greater mercy.

When one commits horrendous acts that put others aside from themselves in danger, one deserves an equally horrendous punishment. Having pity or mercy is optional, but not required in judgement.

So we have to behave as horribly and inhumane as the person we are punishing now? No, behaving in such a manner is disgusting and makes you as much the same as the person who commited the original crime.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lobotomizing someone into being an emotionless  obedient doll with their original mind trapped inside is horrendous and certainly not justifed, no matter what that person has done.

Execution is a far greater mercy.

The Tranquil themselves don't seem to mind. They mind when you turn them back, but not while they're Tranquil. (They might mind before, too, but I'd argue you're right that they should be allowed to choose death if that's the case.)

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

Me neither. But those mages deserve whatever they get, just as long as it isn't rape.

But murder is okay?

I'm not trying to be argumentatitve, I genuinely am curious about this widespread attitude in society that being dead is better than being raped, or that rape is a more horrendous crime than murder.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

But murder is okay?

I'm not trying to be argumentatitve, I genuinely am curious about this widespread attitude in society that being dead is better than being raped, or that rape is a more horrendous crime than murder.

Killing is arguably worse. It's just that it's easier to think of situations where killing someone is justified than to think of situations where raping them is.

Besides, rape has nothing to do with making them less dangerous. If anything, it achieves the opposite effect.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 31 mai 2013 - 12:43 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lobotomizing someone into being an emotionless  obedient doll with their original mind trapped inside is horrendous and certainly not justifed, no matter what that person has done.

Execution is a far greater mercy.

The Tranquil themselves don't seem to mind. They mind when you turn them back, but not while they're Tranquil. (They might mind before, too, but I'd argue you're right that they should be allowed to choose death if that's the case.)

That is not a justification; their original minds are still there, they are simply trapped and cannot do anything. Seeing the reactions from the few mages who are made Tranquil  then regained their minds it is is very obvious they would rather die than live such a fate. It's incredibly cruel and disturbing the Chantry allows this and tries to justify doing such a horrible thing to people. Just makes it obvious to me they need to do some serious reforming or get taken down.

edit: blargh wtf is with me today

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 31 mai 2013 - 12:45 .

[Avaflame]

Lt_Riley wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Lobotomizing someone into being an emotionless  obedient doll with their original mind trapped inside is horrendous and certainly not justifed, no matter what that person has done.

Execution is a far greater mercy.

When one commits horrendous acts that put others aside from themselves in danger, one deserves an equally horrendous punishment. Having pity or mercy is optional, but not required in judgement.

So the ones that summoned the pride demons were the ones who got tranquilised and raped?

No. I'm pretty sure those were innocents. You can't make blanket statements and ignore all the exceptions just because.

I'm a huge mage supporter, but what you're saying is your opinion (one I find completely ludicrous), not fact.

[Lt_Riley]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

That's just the thing. Considering the number of secret blood mages in thrask coup and all the blood mages that poured out during merediths purge, gilt by association goes right out the window. There's no way that level of blood magic is operating in the tower and the mages living there didn't know what was up. Those that didn't come forward are just as guilty as those practicing.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

Me neither. But those mages deserve whatever they get, just as long as it isn't rape.

But murder is okay?

I'm not trying to be argumentatitve, I genuinely am curious about this widespread attitude in society that being dead is better than being raped, or that rape is a more horrendous crime than murder.

Stripping a person of their sense of humanity or rights and reducing them to that of a possession or object, to be used and cast aside until their dominating owner decides he or she may need them once more for their exclusive pleasure.

As opposed to ending someones life and sparing them years of purposely agonizing, humiliating, and extended state of pathetic exsistence. Many would see death as a much kinder act, which is percisely why some people purposely keep others from having the option to die, to remove their one hope of release from a torment. There are many civilizations who seem to have a concept of an honorable or merciful death, little to none I can think of with an honorable or merciful rape.

[KiwiQuiche]

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

That's just the thing. Considering the number of secret blood mages in thrask coup and all the blood mages that poured out during merediths purge, gilt by association goes right out the window. There's no way that level of blood magic is operating in the tower and the mages living there didn't know what was up. Those that didn't come forward are just as guilty as those practicing.

I utterly despise that mentality; how could someone who doesn't do anything is as guilty as someone who actually goes out and kills someone? It's ludicrous to have them regarded as the same.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

That's just the thing. Considering the number of secret blood mages in thrask coup and all the blood mages that poured out during merediths purge, gilt by association goes right out the window. There's no way that level of blood magic is operating in the tower and the mages living there didn't know what was up. Those that didn't come forward are just as guilty as those practicing.

Isn't that assuming that the mages were blood mages before the rite of annulment was activated and that they didn't simply turn to blood magic when faced with the choice of survival or utter annihilation? In multiple portions of DA2, we see how mages can end up tapping into blood magic and become abominations when their life is threatened, so why would it not happen here?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lobotomizing someone into being an emotionless  obedient doll with their original mind trapped inside is horrendous and certainly not justifed, no matter what that person has done.

Execution is a far greater mercy.

The Tranquil themselves don't seem to mind. They mind when you turn them back, but not while they're Tranquil. (They might mind before, too, but I'd argue you're right that they should be allowed to choose death if that's the case.)

That is not a justification; their original minds are still there, they are simply trapped and cannot do anything. Seeing the reactions from the few mages who are made Tranquil  then regained their minds it is is very obvious they would rather die than live such a fate. It's incredibly cruel and disturbing the Chantry allows this and tries to justify doing such a horrible thing to people. Just makes it obvious to me they need to do some serious reforming or get taken down.

edit: blargh wtf is with me today

Wait, was that in Asunder? I didn't read that one. If it's true that the mage is able to feel the horror of what they've become, then yes, I'd say this changes things.

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But murder is okay?

I'm not trying to be argumentatitve, I genuinely am curious about this widespread attitude in society that being dead is better than being raped, or that rape is a more horrendous crime than murder.

Killing is arguably worse. It's just that it's easier to think of situations where killing someone is justified than to think of situations where raping them is.

Besides, rape has nothing to do with making them less dangerous. If anything, it achieves the opposite effect.

Well, I'll grant that "rape in self-defense" is a pretty difficult sell.

To my mind, the argument isn't that those individual mages "deserved" to die, but that Hawke had no other option to ensure his own survival.

[Lt_Riley]

Avaflame wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Lobotomizing someone into being an emotionless  obedient doll with their original mind trapped inside is horrendous and certainly not justifed, no matter what that person has done.

Execution is a far greater mercy.

When one commits horrendous acts that put others aside from themselves in danger, one deserves an equally horrendous punishment. Having pity or mercy is optional, but not required in judgement.

So the ones that summoned the pride demons were the ones who got tranquilised and raped?

No. I'm pretty sure those were innocents. You can't make blanket statements and ignore all the exceptions just because.

I'm a huge mage supporter, but what you're saying is your opinion (one I find completely ludicrous), not fact.

Actually you missed where I said by end game.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But murder is okay?

I'm not trying to be argumentatitve, I genuinely am curious about this widespread attitude in society that being dead is better than being raped, or that rape is a more horrendous crime than murder.

Killing is arguably worse. It's just that it's easier to think of situations where killing someone is justified than to think of situations where raping them is.

Besides, rape has nothing to do with making them less dangerous. If anything, it achieves the opposite effect.

Well, I'll grant that "rape in self-defense" is a pretty difficult sell.

To my mind, the argument isn't that those individual mages "deserved" to die, but that Hawke had no other option to ensure his own survival.

While this has to be understood in the context of my never having played this one, it is my understanding that attacking Hawke means you're dumb enough to deserve death.

[Lt_Riley]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

That's just the thing. Considering the number of secret blood mages in thrask coup and all the blood mages that poured out during merediths purge, gilt by association goes right out the window. There's no way that level of blood magic is operating in the tower and the mages living there didn't know what was up. Those that didn't come forward are just as guilty as those practicing.

I utterly despise that mentality; how could someone who doesn't do anything is as guilty as someone who actually goes out and kills someone? It's ludicrous to have them regarded as the same.

Not coming forward with information you have on dangerous individuals that could save lives, makes you them just as guilty as the individual committing the crime. If hawke has knowledge of Anders nuke, but didn't tell the chantry when lives could've been spared, then hawke would be just as guilty as anders.

[KiwiQuiche]

Lt_Riley wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

That's just the thing. Considering the number of secret blood mages in thrask coup and all the blood mages that poured out during merediths purge, gilt by association goes right out the window. There's no way that level of blood magic is operating in the tower and the mages living there didn't know what was up. Those that didn't come forward are just as guilty as those practicing.

I utterly despise that mentality; how could someone who doesn't do anything is as guilty as someone who actually goes out and kills someone? It's ludicrous to have them regarded as the same.

Not coming forward with information you have on dangerous individuals that could save lives, makes you them just as guilty as the individual committing the crime. If hawke has knowledge of Anders nuke, but didn't tell the chantry when lives could've been spared, then hawke would be just as guilty as anders.

It most certainly does not, the one who actually kills the person commits the greater act.

[Lt_Riley]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lt_Riley wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

No matter how bad mages get, I can't imagine that "turn them all into living realdolls for my personal pleasure" could ever be 'justified'.

They summoned pride demons at the docks while innocent people scurried about. That most definitely justifies tranquility if not execution.

Some mages did that. I don't support guilt by association.

That's just the thing. Considering the number of secret blood mages in thrask coup and all the blood mages that poured out during merediths purge, gilt by association goes right out the window. There's no way that level of blood magic is operating in the tower and the mages living there didn't know what was up. Those that didn't come forward are just as guilty as those practicing.

Isn't that assuming that the mages were blood mages before the rite of annulment was activated and that they didn't simply turn to blood magic when faced with the choice of survival or utter annihilation? In multiple portions of DA2, we see how mages can end up tapping into blood magic and become abominations when their life is threatened, so why would it not happen here?

Demonology isn't something a mage picks up in a few seconds. That's a subject that's studied and practiced way before hand.

[Plaintiff]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Stripping a person of their sense of humanity or rights and reducing them to that of a possession or object, to be used and cast aside until their dominating owner decides he or she may need them once more for their exclusive pleasure.

I'm confused. Are you describing rape in general or Tranquility specifically?

As opposed to ending someones life and sparing them years of purposely agonizing, humiliating, and extended state of pathetic exsistence. Many would see death as a much kinder act, which is percisely why some people purposely keep others from having the option to die, to remove their one hope of release from a torment. There are many civilizations who seem to have a concept of an honorable or merciful death, little to none I can think of with an honorable or merciful rape.

I'm not in the least trying to argue that rape should be seen as a mercy. It is absolutely a terrible violation. I'm just trying to understand the mindset that being dead is somehow preferable.

I would argue many concepts of "merciful" death are flawed. I would only support merciful death if the alternative for the person in question was a life of pain and suffering, caused by long-standing illness (in the case of Kelder, for instance, who is plagued by psychoses with no existing cure). Killing someone as a "merciful" punishment, and expecting them to just be glad that it's not rape or public humiliation or whatever... well, that will just never be the right thing to do.

[Medhia Nox]

What fascinates me more - is that people cry for "grey" - but side either exclusively with the Templars or Mages.  (of course, what they really want is their side shown as "grey" and the other shown as terribly terribly obviously black)

Anyone siding exclusively with one of these sides is a fanatic.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 31 mai 2013 - 01:04 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Stripping a person of their sense of humanity or rights and reducing them to that of a possession or object, to be used and cast aside until their dominating owner decides he or she may need them once more for their exclusive pleasure.

I'm confused. Are you describing rape in general or Tranquility specifically?

As opposed to ending someones life and sparing them years of purposely agonizing, humiliating, and extended state of pathetic exsistence. Many would see death as a much kinder act, which is percisely why some people purposely keep others from having the option to die, to remove their one hope of release from a torment. There are many civilizations who seem to have a concept of an honorable or merciful death, little to none I can think of with an honorable or merciful rape.

I'm not in the least trying to argue that rape should be seen as a mercy. It is absolutely a terrible violation. I'm just trying to understand the mindset that being dead is somehow preferable.

I would argue many concepts of "merciful" death are flawed. I would only support merciful death if the alternative for the person in question was a life of pain and suffering, caused by long-standing illness (in the case of Kelder, for instance, who is plagued by psychoses with no existing cure). Killing someone as a "merciful" punishment, and expecting them to just be glad that it's not rape or public humiliation or whatever... well, that will just never be the right thing to do.

I think people like fenris would prefer death over becoming a slave again. As would many tranquil mages brought out of their state of tranquility. And also people who were sentenced to an exsistence of being used as a mere object by those more powerful than them and with no means of escape or fighting back. I agree with your guidelines, but I think that there are more situations would would call for it and be alternatively worse than death. I mean, these mages are pretty much sentenced to a lifetime of whatever hell awaits them, with no chance of ever being freed.