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[Fast Jimmy]

Howdy do, BSN.

I'd like to start a discussion about Unsavory Things.


Seedy, shady, unscrupulous... these are all adjectives which bring to mind some of the more less reputable aspects of human society. Video games have never been shy about including these elements in games, whether that has been drug references to criminal organizations to outright murder. Games have long been champions of allowing players to express and engage in  disagreeable situations.

Defining how our character handles and deals with these situations has always been an interesting part in playing games. Does our character join in? Do they take a moral stance against it? Do they stay quiet and try not to get involved? Lots of possibilites can arise from this. 

So, in that vein, I'd to go over some of the more dubious subjects in games and see how these could be applied in DA3.

Let's begin!

Drug Use:

Games have long had a history of putting substances in their games which are illegal, harmful and, of course, highly valued. Whether it is Jet from Fallout, Skooma from TES or Red Sand from Mass Effect... video game drugs are almost as fun as real ones. 

Of course, all three of these series used their drugs in different ways. Red Sand had the most removed effect, with it basically being an excuse to have side quest/shoot outs with various groups. Skooma works in much the same way, with it being a way to put bandits in the kill zone of the player, but it also offered some economic and usage abilities as well. You could use Skooma and have it boost (temporarily) certain stats. You could also sell it to certain vendors only, since "legitimate" merchants would not deal in the stuff. Fallout had a similar set up with Jet - it even included ways to get addicted to the stuff and go through withdrawals.

Where Fallout (2) comes out ahead, though, is its usage as a plot device that equates to something more than drug dealers that you can kill without a second thought. You could encounter crime families who were manufacturing the stuff large scale and join their Family (or, conversely, join a rival family and wipe them out). You could find a scientist who would help you find a cure to Jet addiciton. You could help an entire town who was being manipulated by their drug addictions to break free... or you could manipulate that addiction and make a profit off it.

Point being, there is a lot you can build off of with drug usage. We don't know of any such substances in the DA lore (aside from possibly lyrium for Templars), but seeing the sides of human nature dealing in addiction and crime could make for a very interesting setting backplay.

Slavery/Prostitution:

This may seem like a bizare pairing. But sex and slavery have an unsavory history together (ha! see what I did?) .

Now, people may be saying "Wait, Fast Jimmy, hold the phone... the DA series has talked about elven slavery in both games at length. And they have had a brothel in both games! What more could you want?" To which I would likely say "Don't speak to your monitor. I can't hear you through it! You need to type your words for me to see them."

After which I would agree that slavery and prostitution have been discussed in DA games. In the case of the Female City Elf origin, it has arguably been a center focal point of one of the characters (although not expressly a slave nor a prostitute, it still gives implications of forced, subservient sex). BUT I would argue that the DA team has never given you a reason to side with slavers. If they are the consumate bad guys, how edgy of a subject is it?

For instance, what if you had a quest to attack a group of bandits who had killed a local family. You go in, storm their camp and take them down. What if they had three or four surrender and were still alive. You are out in the middle of nowhere, so small town justice is the only law around - meaning these bandits will die, either at your hand or someone else's. But what if you could sell them to passerby slaver? Sparing their lives, even if it means that life is indentured servitude (and a little pocket change for the player)? Would that be a call that would be easy for everyone to make? Would it be a different type of choice if one of the surrenddering bandits was a woman and it may be implied that her slavery would not be for... mining, shall we say?

Again, dealing with the cruelties and hardships of an issue is only one side of the equation. Making the player debate whether said suffering in a certain situation may be better in the long run is the kind of story-telling and choice that can stick with a player and make a real impact... instead of saying "oh, hey, slavers... kill them all in the name of liberty, rah, rah, rah."

Stealing/Robbing/Pillaging:

All too often in video games, the concept of stealing is incredibly light-hearted. By the cunning of your wits and the deftness of your skills, you are able to sneak away with the gold/valuables/Macguffin. Similarly, acts of looting the dead are so par for the course that it borders on the psychotic.

Yet, as anyone who has experienced, having your possessions stolen is a terrifying and harrowing ordeal. Whether it is the gripping moment when you walk into your house that has been ransacked in your absence, that shattering of confidence of getting mugged in a dark alley or have a window broken in the dead of night... losing your belongings is never the worst part of encounter. It is the loss of security.

Yet the difference between stealing possesions or money without harming, robbing with the threat (or even promise) of violenece and the slaughter of pillaging... these are very dark deeds for people to engage in that are only given the most cursory of nods in gaming. Killing a bandit and stealing with 2 Star Ring is a mindless event in a video game and sneaking out of a house with the gold while the inhabitants are gone is simply the way to accomplish a mission. 

On the other side of the coin, it seems nearly every video game loves to have a Thieves Guild or rough equivalent, where it is a group of rough, but loveable scallywags that love swigging ale and showing off their plunder... yet all too often, theft is a result not of master thieves with carefully thought out, Oceans-11-esque plans, but true abject poverty.

What if the same above mentioned bandits only killed the local family because they were starved from the recent war that your character has been involved in and, in the process of trying to make out with some food, the farmer caught them and drew them into a fight? Suddenly, we aren't just dealing with some greedy, lazy sell-swords or some good-natured hooligans, but individuals pressed into lives of crime due to their desperation? Stories like Robin Hood rarely show the starving peasants killing good, normal people in their process of stealing from the rich to feed the poor... but it surely would happen if it were to happen in the real world. After all, how many people thought of Sten as a monster who needed killing because he killed a farming family? Not many... and that was for a much more petty reason than his survival.

So I would challenge video game writers (and DA3 writers in particular) to take a good long hard look at the concept of stealing and the options we can have to make the player see dark consequences to doing it, while also seeing good reasons why it could happen... even if it happens in messy and complicated scenarios.

Conclusion:

We have talked about some of the more culpable aspects of human nature that show up in video games. And how these elements can be used not only to just have good guys and bad guys, but blur the line between morality that so often accompanies intriguing story-telling.

So what say you, BSN? Do you have any sordid activities you'd like to see in future DA games? Or an idea for how to use them in a novel way that could enhance the story?

[DatOneFanboy]

id like that Should just keep pushing the game to 18+ making it more realistic

[Naitaka]

Well going off from memory, I remember that we were given the choice to side with the slaver from Tervinter for the Alienage in Denerim. However, you're correct that the portrayal of the slavers is almost comical in how "evil" they are. While I am all for having deeper issues explored in a R-rated game, I get the distinct impression that Bioware don't want to deal with the type of backlash that this type of contents would undoubtedly bring from both mainstream and gaming media. Heck, weren't Bioware just talking about how horrible it would have been if they included something that might have been interpreted as rape in the script a few month back? Also you can look at the **** storm a few seconds of footage the Tomb Raider trailer had cooked up or how there're even people calling Bioshock Infinite white people killing simulator.

Modifié par Naitaka, 30 mai 2013 - 09:10 .

[DatOneFanboy]

Naitaka wrote...

Well going off from memory, I remember that we were given the choice to side with the slaver from Tervinter for the Alienage in Denerim. However, you're correct that the portrayal of the slavers is almost comical in how "evil" they are. While I am all for having deeper issues explored in a R-rated game, I get the distinct impression that Bioware don't want to deal with the type of backlash that this type of contents would undoubtedly bring from both mainstream and gaming media. Heck, were Bioware just talking about how horrible it would have been if they included something that might have been interpreted as rape in the script a few month back? Also you can look at the **** storm a few seconds of footage brought up by the Tomb Raider trailer or how there're people calling Bioshock Infinite white people killing simulator.

Sly fox news 2013-14

[Volus Warlord]

DatOneFanboy wrote...

id like that Should just keep pushing the game to 18+ making it more realistic

LOLZ!

Bioware is NEVER going to make an 18+ game. It'd hurt sales. A lot. 

I'm surprised they never tried to push down to a T rating for that reason.

I can see how dark elements would make a game more appealing to certain folk. However, they are not targeting certain folk, they are targeting EVERYONE. Bioware is not trying to make niche games. They are trying to make games with a more diverse clientelle in mind. 

You see, some of the dark elements you would love someone else would hate, and refuse to buy the game on that standard alone. As a result, those dark elements tend to make the game more and more niche, as again what will really appeal to some will turn others off.

Also, you tend to get these annoying ass activist groups targeting your game for whatever. We saw this with Tomb Raider in which a TRAILER-not the game-had something that could be readily construed as an attempted rape scene. We saw something similar with ME1. Or  loads of other stuff. 

So no to darker elements is far more likely for financial reasons and PR reasons. If they exist, they will be handled carefully, severely watered down, and/or pandered to death. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Naitaka wrote...

Well going off from memory, I remember that we were given the choice to side with the slaver from Tervinter for the Alienage in Denerim. However, you're correct that the portrayal of the slavers is almost comical in how "evil" they are.

I thought about this when I was writing the OP. But not only was the slaver a slaver... but also a blood mage. And you could "side" with him by performing a blood ritual that kills all the slaves. All for a boost in stats that was (to my memory) nothing worth writing home about, giving the player no real incentive to choosing it as an option even if they WERE playing a character that was "evil."

I didn't think that would be a great example of making slavery a morally gray subject. More of an insanely one-sided one.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd love to see the protagonist being able to use seedier elements to his benefit, it's something I always hoped Mass Effect 3 would've involved with Shepard potentially gaining control of Cerberus and using them and their poor reputation to cover up operations.

For example, gaining control of the Carta and having them assassinate a straight-and-narrow Templar who's spreading dissent amongst the ranks. The fact that Carta assassinated him would be made clear, everyone would mutter "god damn carta" and you can easily create a cover story which could discredit him (maybe he was smuggling lyrium and didn't pay off his dealers? *WINK WINK*)

[Sylvius the Mad]

I asked a similar question about slavery during DAO's development. Since we're seem perfectly able to accept a world with physical rules (magic) different from ours, why can't we accept a world with moral rules different from ours?

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I asked a similar question about slavery during DAO's development. Since we're seem perfectly able to accept a world with physical rules (magic) different from ours, why can't we accept a world with moral rules different from ours?

I'd argue that our world doesn't differ, actually. There are estimates that show the amount of slaves in the world now is the highest in human history, even in North America and Western Europe. 

Still, I think some of the most effective stories and instances in Bioware games are the ones that make you sit back and try and address a moral problem that is not clear cut and easy. In fact, I'd say this was the case for all great RPGs. 

The obstacle becomes how you don't make everyone insane psychopaths or evil criminals but nuanced, believable people. 

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Point being, there is a lot you can build off of with drug usage. We don't know of any such substances in the DA lore (aside from possibly lyrium for Templars), but seeing the sides of human nature dealing in addiction and crime could make for a very interesting setting backplay.

Given the mage templar war, I actually think lyrium smuggling would make quite a lot of sense as a significant sidequest. Templars would need a steady supply of lyrium, and mages would do anything to have it fall into their hands. 

After which I would agree that slavery and prostitution have been discussed in DA games. In the case of the Female City Elf origin, it has arguably been a center focal point of one of the characters (although not expressly a slave nor a prostitute, it still gives implications of forced, subservient sex). BUT I would argue that the DA team has never given you a reason to side with slavers. If they are the consumate bad guys, how edgy of a subject is it?

For instance, what if you had a quest to attack a group of bandits who had killed a local family. You go in, storm their camp and take them down. What if they had three or four surrender and were still alive. You are out in the middle of nowhere, so small town justice is the only law around - meaning these bandits will die, either at your hand or someone else's. But what if you could sell them to passerby slaver? Sparing their lives, even if it means that life is indentured servitude (and a little pocket change for the player)? Would that be a call that would be easy for everyone to make? Would it be a different type of choice if one of the surrenddering bandits was a woman and it may be implied that her slavery would not be for... mining, shall we say?

To be fair, in that case the player might think of which is the worse punishment, versus saving lives per se. So slavery might be prefered because it's worse, on vindictive ground. 

So I would challenge video game writers (and DA3 writers in particular) to take a good long hard look at the concept of stealing and the options we can have to make the player see dark consequences to doing it, while also seeing good reasons why it could happen... even if it happens in messy and complicated scenarios.

It could be just as easy as forcing the player to actually face the consequences of the insane levels of plundering that RPG PCs do. 

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I thought about this when I was writing the OP. But not only was the slaver a slaver... but also a blood mage. And you could "side" with him by performing a blood ritual that kills all the slaves. All for a boost in stats that was (to my memory) nothing worth writing home about, giving the player no real incentive to choosing it as an option even if they WERE playing a character that was "evil."

It's +1 constitution. It's totally worthless, as I recall. Now, if it was + 5-20  on an RNG... 

This is one time where I think player greed + the RNG would work great. 

[Wulfram]

I don't want this to explode Fast Jimmy's thread, but aren't the morally abiguous slavers the Templars? And the Qunari. Also Loghain, I guess.

In Orlais I guess we should see some generally fairly nice and decent people treating serfdom as normal and acceptable.

[Boycott Bioware]

It is always down to drug, sex, alcohol and violence.

There should be

i. bribery and corrupt government
ii. violence police, bad cop/authorities
iii. environmental issue such as releasing industrial waste, destroying forests
iv. animal abuse such as abusing animal in scientific study or making mass production of fast food
v. racist mob like KKK, skin head and such, racial hatred to the extreme

[DatOneFanboy]

Qistina wrote...

It is always down to drug, sex, alcohol and violence.

There should be

i. bribery and corrupt government
ii. violence police, bad cop/authorities
iii. environmental issue such as releasing industrial waste, destroying forests
iv. animal abuse such as abusing animal in scientific study or making mass production of fast food
v. racist mob like KKK, skin head and such, racial hatred to the extreme

lol but we did,.

i.the Female priest. i forgot her name she wanted to fight the qunari. 
ii.bad authorities. templars were the 'cops' or the order and in anders quest there was a corrupt templar who made Mages tranquils for no reason. 
iii. well that Qunari poison was something.
iv. Dont u think animal abuse goes over the line?
v. There were racist mobs in Act 1 Where the gang in lowtown was hunting fereldans claiming they are taking over kirkwall.

[garrusfan1]

I just hope they bring back the ME1 style romance scenes actually if weekes is in the team maybe we could get it

[garrusfan1]

DatOneFanboy wrote...

Qistina wrote...

It is always down to drug, sex, alcohol and violence.

There should be

i. bribery and corrupt government
ii. violence police, bad cop/authorities
iii. environmental issue such as releasing industrial waste, destroying forests
iv. animal abuse such as abusing animal in scientific study or making mass production of fast food
v. racist mob like KKK, skin head and such, racial hatred to the extreme

lol but we did,.

i.the Female priest. i forgot her name she wanted to fight the qunari. 
ii.bad authorities. templars were the 'cops' or the order and in anders quest there was a corrupt templar who made Mages tranquils for no reason. 
iii. well that Qunari poison was something.
iv. Dont u think animal abuse goes over the line?
v. There were racist mobs in Act 1 Where the gang in lowtown was hunting fereldans claiming they are taking over kirkwall.

well in the city elf origin in DAO you see a government (the son of the arl and the guard) basically go and pick out women to rape and they get away with it.

[DatOneFanboy]

garrusfan1 wrote...

DatOneFanboy wrote...

Qistina wrote...

It is always down to drug, sex, alcohol and violence.

There should be

i. bribery and corrupt government
ii. violence police, bad cop/authorities
iii. environmental issue such as releasing industrial waste, destroying forests
iv. animal abuse such as abusing animal in scientific study or making mass production of fast food
v. racist mob like KKK, skin head and such, racial hatred to the extreme

lol but we did,.

i.the Female priest. i forgot her name she wanted to fight the qunari. 
ii.bad authorities. templars were the 'cops' or the order and in anders quest there was a corrupt templar who made Mages tranquils for no reason. 
iii. well that Qunari poison was something.
iv. Dont u think animal abuse goes over the line?
v. There were racist mobs in Act 1 Where the gang in lowtown was hunting fereldans claiming they are taking over kirkwall.

well in the city elf origin in DAO you see a government (the son of the arl and the guard) basically go and pick out women to rape and they get away with it.

yea but he was just a spoiled ******.  nothing 2 important 

[Meatbaggins]

Some of these ideas are interesting, but my problem is "How can we make things more edgy/morally grey?", just seems like a bad approach to writing. Too many games in recent years have gone down the road of "edginess for the sake of edginess", and I'd hate to see Bioware do the same.

Modifié par Meatbaggins, 31 mai 2013 - 12:17 .

[Plaintiff]

Skittles aren't savory.

[Boycott Bioware]

i.the Female priest. i forgot her name she wanted to fight the qunari.

That is not "bribery and corrupt government", that is "religious fanaticism and conspiracy"

ii.bad authorities. templars were the 'cops' or the order and in anders quest there was a corrupt templar who made Mages tranquils for no reason.

They only involve Mages, what i mean is the guards beating down protestors to death, beating criminals, gas the crowd and shoot with water-jet...

iii. well that Qunari poison was something.

I can agree with that but Sar Qamek only effect sentient beings, if it pollute everything and makes some animals mutated it is far more extreme isn't it?

iv. Dont u think animal abuse goes over the line?

Child abuse is better...

v. There were racist mobs in Act 1 Where the gang in lowtown was hunting fereldans claiming they are taking over kirkwall.

I am not aware of that, but yeah DA2 have some racial tension issue when Aveline becomes guard captain. But thoroughly, Fereldens can live well in Kirkwall, the "racial tension" is like almost don't exist because the main hero is going so well without racial issue

[Cainhurst Crow]

Show what happens when a city gets sacked.

[daaaav]

garrusfan1 wrote...

I just hope they bring back the ME1 style romance scenes actually if weekes is in the team maybe we could get it

Please please please don't make this thread about romance scenes. 

[DatOneFanboy]

daaaav wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

I just hope they bring back the ME1 style romance scenes actually if weekes is in the team maybe we could get it

Please please please don't make this thread about romance scenes. 

hey leave him alone he has a point

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Skittles aren't savory.

...and now I want Skittles. 

I' blame you for that, Plantiff. 

[Boycott Bioware]

Meatbaggins wrote...
Some of these ideas are interesting, but my problem is "How can we make things more edgy/morally grey?", just seems like a bad approach to writing. Too many games in recent years have gone down the road of "edginess for the sake of edginess", and I'd hate to see Bioware do the same.

i. Human want to develop their cities and want to use fire woods, need logs, they cut down forests making the natives Dalish angry. The Dalish don't want to tolerate, kill every wood cutters who get into the forest. But human need woods.

ii. In DA2, there should be a scene where the city guards beating those who listen to Orsino in Act 3 beginning, then they apprehend Orsino under some act

iii. The government need money for the ongoing war, making dealings with the Mafias, raising tax, lying to the mass, attack foreign country for their resources....ect