216 réponses à ce sujet

[Naitaka]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

Umm...I'm from a country with mandatory conscription and I don't see as to how it can be interpreted as slavery unless it works differently in other countries. Not only was I paid, albeit the pay was pretty crap, I also had the option of Civil Conscription and was not at any point "owned" by the army or my country.

Was the pay set entirely by your employer?  Did you have any leverage at all to negotiate it?  Were you permitted to refuse to do the work if the pay was too low?

What was the penalty for not taking part?

Even if I don't get to negociate my wages it still wouldn't consistute as slavery for me as long as the army doesn't own everything that I have. Not to mention the fact that there're ways to affect the wages if you were to have specific skills, come from certain educational background or have taken assessment exam to become officiers. It just seem that slavery is too strong a term in this case. Also, you're allowed to be exempt from conscription citing health issue or religious belief so I wouldn't say you have no choice in the matter. In fact, a common way to "dodge" conscription is to exceed or go below the weight limit when you take the physical exam.

[Realmzmaster]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Isn't Hawke essentially sold into slavery voluntarily to get into Kirkwall?

Hawke chose indentured servitude which is a form of debt bondage. A person pledges their service or labor as repayment for a loan or other debt.

Slavery is involuntary servitude. A slave does not choose to serve, but is forced to serve. The slave is treated as property and can be bought or sold.

[Plaintiff]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Why even bother making a Fantasy game at all? Jeez.

Well, yes. I'm not sure I get your comment right...

But every time one tells a story across cultural borders, the important essence of that story need to be understandable. For that purpose it's sometimes necessary to dress up things in a cultural layer of values and customs that are sort of similar to our own. Otherwise we can't relate to the story.

It's a drastic example, but it all starts by having them speak in a language that we understand, rather than some invented gibberish. The actual language of that invented Fantasy culture, is not an important essence of the story.

Fantasy in medieval settings also typically feature modern Western values, rather than medieval.

I was making a general comment on the trend that for every single aspect of the game, there is at least one person arguing for more "realism" in that area, whatever "realism" means in their arbitrary and highly subjective perception.

Frankly, I think the Fantasy genre as a whole is homogenous and stagnant enough already, without making it indistinguishable from straight historical drama.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 31 mai 2013 - 06:17 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Slavery is involuntary servitude. A slave does not choose to serve, but is forced to serve. The slave is treated as property and can be bought or sold.

Not accurate, we can voluntary become a slave. Just sold ourselves to anyone, we become their slave.

not all slaves are forced to become slave, some are voluntary out of anything, hardship in life, social imbalanced, wars and famine, economic fall, and many more. Today, many women sold themselves to "porn industry", i use the softer word...i could use "**** factory" instead...

When someone own you then you are a slave, no matter you voluntarily being owned or forcibly

[ArcaneJTM]

Plaintiff wrote...

I was making a general comment on the trend that for every aspect of the ame, there is at least one person arguing for more "realism" in that area, whatever "realism" means in their arbitrary and highly subjective perception.

Frankly, I think the Fantasy genre as a whole is homogenous and stagnant enough already, without making it indistinguishable from straight historical drama.

I think that's just the result of people confusing realism with reality.  They aren't the same thing, but since the easiest way to get realism is to copy reality, it's easy for people to start thinking that it is the only way.

[karushna5]

No it is not grey it is wrong, always, no exceptions, Rape is always wrong. It isn't about judging, it is about suffering and humanity. Video games are not to tintillation with the taboo and never were. They are about having a fun game, an enjoyable one, with a good plot. If all VG were for was tintillation then we would have whole games devoted to beastiality and eating feces. Obviously that is not what video games are about at all.

what has happened is people associate a mature rating with taboo things, somehow to be mature, sex has to be involved, but sex is handled so immaturely that it is laughable or cringe worthy. And now rape is being obsessed over. It isn't some fun way to make you care, or to further a plot, ANYONE who uses rape as a plot point just to make another character feel sad, or to shock the reader or just as fluff has handled it immaturely.

Rape is agonizing, hateful, self defeating. It happens too often all over the globe. Rape s not some evil trait you assign to a villain to hate him like Vaugan. It is a mature and agonizing topic, that gamers are obviously not mature enough to handle. They treat it as just a thing, and I blame video games for some of my experiences. I love them, but when women are treated as such ownership in these games...

Guys can't understand no. That isn't funny, interesting, or shocking, it is horrifying. Absolutely terrifying more than any horror RPG can come up with, it is soul churning, it is vile, it is the living nightmare. It ISN'T your toy. You don't get to play it for some sort of jollies and go OOh rapists mwahaha evil. And you can't say that it would make the game fun to have it involved when you have no idea what it is.

I met rapists, they don't wear dark cloaks or fancy rings, they are ordinary, deadly, and usually someone you know. That is how bad that many people have to fear for anyone near them. I used to imagine an escape outlet any time I was alone with someone, for years. It means wanting to die. It means no one believing you when you have proof, it means your friends inviting them any way, it means dreading going home because they are there and that it is useless to talk to anyone because no one cares.

It means being a kid and planning suicide out as your only release because at least then it stops playing in your head. It means having panic attacks and episodes and YES PTSD. It means still after all the years wanting to tear your face off due to what they said. It means when you finally find someone to love still questioning it, and your worthwhile ness to even be loved.

That horror isn't yours to throw in for laughs or as a character background for more "depth" it doesn't. It means you have no empathy for victims of rape, no creativity to have something real, and NO MATURITY. The above is what rape is really like, the things in video games are so unrealistic and immature as just to be toys so guys and girls can laugh and play at the idea.

rapists are not villains with an evil laugh, it is your best friend that you realize too late just wanted to get you alone, it isn't a evil duke who is slimy, it is the family member you always loved.

They spew hate, and if you struggle too much they hurt you, and if you don't struggle enough it means they talk like you like it. And they insult you like they see everyday in their adult movies and shows. And no matter what everyone says it is your fault. If You go to a friends house and they hurt you, we'll your fault for going. If you drink at all, your fault, if you wear clothes you like...your fault. Until you wear baggy clothing, you never drink, you never visit friends...and they still get you. And when you start suspecting everybody, you are horrible and they make you feel guilty for crossing them out of your life and you open up... And they use that guilt to destroy you all over again.

I don't think video games cause shootings...but I do believe that how some women are portrayed makes men admire rapist characters, and encourage that behavior. I hear men all over some forums say a girl character deserves it. I hear women adding it to their characters so you feel sorry for them, or worse how the romantic pairing meet up.

it's immature, not mature at all, any more then smearing feces on your face for fun is mature. Worse because real people find it horrifying and some people start getting ideas. Too many guys talk about wanting to rape a character. Too many women fantasize the despair.

It is nt morally grey

[Sylvius the Mad]

Naitaka wrote...

Even if I don't get to negociate my wages it still wouldn't consistute as slavery for me as long as the army doesn't own everything that I have. Not to mention the fact that there're ways to affect the wages if you were to have specific skills, come from certain educational background or have taken assessment exam to become officiers. It just seem that slavery is too strong a term in this case. Also, you're allowed to be exempt from conscription citing health issue or religious belief so I wouldn't say you have no choice in the matter. In fact, a common way to "dodge" conscription is to exceed or go below the weight limit when you take the physical exam.

If it's possible to refuse, then it's not slavery.

Like jury duty.  I wouldn't call jury duty slavery, because it's possible to refuse.

[Boycott Bioware]

karushna5 wrote...
It is nt morally grey

I think many don't understand what i am saying "rape can be grey issue"

What i mean is not the rape, but the issue we must handle in the game, i even give example.

The Chevaliers are rapists as i know from Orlesian girl in Denerim (in DA:O), so maybe the issue become grey when we have to choose between the elite well armored and well trained troop of rapists Chevaliers and poorly armored untrained troop of good morality militias being added to our army for end battle.

Which one would you choose...the fate hang in the balance, you know Chevaliers are rapists, you know the militias are good peoples, but the enemy are strong who could destroy the world...

So choose...

[bEVEsthda]

Qistina wrote...

Thanks for your reply.

just want to add, in some places such as in Asia, the King or monarch are taken as "representatives of the Divine/God/Goddess/Heaven", and so they have right in everything. And some Kings (or queens) are even worshiped as Gods. And in theory, that makes many gods and goddesses, they are actually ancient kings and queens who become god/goddesses and their story become myth and legends, but the Kings (or Queens) later continue their reign by divine right. Of course it will be differently for different country/continent, but basically it is similar to each other, even to the west

In India there is a concept of Dewaraja (God-King), in Egypt as well known the Pharaoh claim they are Gods, in China each dynasties are chosen by heaven, they fall when they no longer chosen by heaven, in Japan the Kamikaze (Divine Wind) is the Emperor divine right, Japan was saved from Mongols because of Kamikaze.In Indonesia and Malaysia, the concept even complicated due to influences from 3 religion (Hindu, Buddha and Islam), but later following Islam concept of "Daulah", that is a "gift of leadership from Allah to the Khalifah", but Malays still maintain the title "Raja" for the King, but some use "Sultan" instead...

It is not far different in western Christendom, as far as i know, the European Kings are having Divine right being Kings. It is all changed after protestant movement and Renaissance. Today the so called modern "democracy" world is actually borrowing part of ancient Greek and Roman system. It is not modern, in fact it is ancient.

There are still slavery today, as there are slavery in those ancient democracy world, it just different form... today people work to pay debt am i right? You making debt then you work to pay debt, or you work then you having debt then work to pay debt, it is the same...your money goes to the bank with interests, what left for you? eat, drink and place to stay....what the different with "debt slave" in the past?

You buy house, you are in debt, you buy car, you are in debt, you want education, you are in debt, you buy things, you use debt cards...people today are machines, the salary they got only to maintain their life to go to work tomorrow...

Just think, we are going to school, who's school? We being taught what we must know, then we get offer going to college, who's college? When we graduate, there is bar lines at our forehead means we are ready to be sold to the market, where we go is depend what we show on our papers/documents, as what we are being programmed for....the market buy us....

Slavery always exist...

Well, that's some interesting angles.

However, I'm more convinced that they lead forward to a more stark definition of slavery, if they were discussed, than they would lead to the conclusion that we live in slavery.

The one thing that doesn't change, and isn't likely to change, is that life is a struggle and hard work. But that isn't the same as slavery.

The ancients, from whom we inherited things like democracy, senate, republic, saw the difference as clearly as we do today. It meant something to them then. It means something to us now.

Slavery do exist, hidden away in crooks and holes in the world. In the west I would mainly look at religious sects and protitution/trafficking. But it's not the same as having to work hard for your life's needs.

[Realmzmaster]

The question becomes are you looking for a fantasy game with some vague historical background or you looking for a historical game with some fantasy elements?
Not all fantasy in medieval settings needs to feature modern western values.

If the game is going to show unsavory things then it must show them warts and all. If you are going to portray addiction then also show how it destroys the person and family.

Let the protagonist have an addicted companion that will sell him/her down the river for a fix or betray him/her for enough money to buy the next fix. Let that companion steal from the protagonist and friends. Let watch as that companion affects the cohesiveness of the group. Maybe watch as that companion goes off the attacks a friend or commits suicide.

The question is how must realism do you want in your fantasy?

Maybe the game should show women as second class citizens like in mediveal times or treated as a piece of property. Their main task being to produce a male heir which is why many women spent most of their time pregnant.

Just how far should we carry the realism before it becomes historical drama like Plaintiff said.

[Steppenwolf]

Most of the "renegade" options in Dragon Age games are like cartoonish "eeeville" choices and they usually put you in direct conflict with most of your party. There should be more nuanced and "grey" choices that don't benefit all the precious little children over the super evil evil-doers.

"Either kill me or let me murder these people in a blood magic ritual to give you a mild stat boost."

Wat? I'm not Skeletor, why can't I just kill you and steal your power from your corpse with some of my own blood magic?

[Naitaka]

karushna5 wrote...
*snip

That's some pretty big assumption you're making in that post and pretty much just goes to further illustrate the reason why Bioware would most likely choose stay far away from this type of topic. However, I really want to point out that men gets raped too you know? Not to mention that "suffering and humanity" as you put it are pretty legitimate things to explorer, especially for games that focus so much more on narrative such as the ones Bioware makes. I'd agree wholeheartly with you if we were discussing Super Mario Bro, but this is about a game that's already set in a world that strongly mirror's our own and can be used as a medium to explore things that would usually be considered taboo in our society and still provide entertainment for some people, myself included.

Modifié par Naitaka, 31 mai 2013 - 06:47 .

[Realmzmaster]

Qistina wrote...

karushna5 wrote...
It is nt morally grey

I think many don't understand what i am saying "rape can be grey issue"

What i mean is not the rape, but the issue we must handle in the game, i even give example.

The Chevaliers are rapists as i know from Orlesian girl in Denerim (in DA:O), so maybe the issue become grey when we have to choose between the elite well armored and well trained troop of rapists Chevaliers and poorly armored untrained troop of good morality militias being added to our army for end battle.

Which one would you choose...the fate hang in the balance, you know Chevaliers are rapists, you know the militias are good peoples, but the enemy are strong who could destroy the world...

So choose...

A good leader will pick the well-trained armored soldiers because he/she is trying to win the battle. It makes no sense to take the poorly trained, ill-equipped men and lead them to slaughter.  It is not really a grey area. You take a chance of winning the battle or committing battlefield suicide.

[Naitaka]

Realmzmaster wrote...

A good leader will pick the well-trained armored soldiers because he/she is trying to win the battle. It makes no sense to take the poorly trained, ill-equipped men and lead them to slaughter.  It is not really a grey area. You take a chance of winning the battle or committing battlefield suicide.

And not everyone would see things that way which makes it all the more interesting. I mean, look at how many people lamented the fact that they were forced to work with Cerberus back in ME2? There're simply times where some will knowingly choose a less advantageous option out for principle and for them that'd probably make a pretty good gray choice.

[Realmzmaster]

When a developer deals with subjects like the OP has defined you have to be careful. The devloper is looking to sell the game and broaden the fan base. These subjects must be handled in a tasteful manner. The unforunate part is what it tasteful to one person may not be to another. This is one of the reason why many developers prefer to err on the side of caution.

No developers is looking to alienate more gamers from the fan base than they bring in. Businesses are profit driven. If certain subject matter may drive away more gamers than it attracts the developer will most likely dial it back.
It makes for an interesting balancing act.

[bEVEsthda]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Qistina wrote...

karushna5 wrote...
It is nt morally grey

I think many don't understand what i am saying "rape can be grey issue"

What i mean is not the rape, but the issue we must handle in the game, i even give example.

The Chevaliers are rapists as i know from Orlesian girl in Denerim (in DA:O), so maybe the issue become grey when we have to choose between the elite well armored and well trained troop of rapists Chevaliers and poorly armored untrained troop of good morality militias being added to our army for end battle.

Which one would you choose...the fate hang in the balance, you know Chevaliers are rapists, you know the militias are good peoples, but the enemy are strong who could destroy the world...

So choose...

A good leader will pick the well-trained armored soldiers because he/she is trying to win the battle. It makes no sense to take the poorly trained, ill-equipped men and lead them to slaughter.  It is not really a grey area. You take a chance of winning the battle or committing battlefield suicide.

Yup. Dam right.
(unfortunately) (but we do need to understand realities, even if they're not, and it's just a game).

[Realmzmaster]

Naitaka wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

A good leader will pick the well-trained armored soldiers because he/she is trying to win the battle. It makes no sense to take the poorly trained, ill-equipped men and lead them to slaughter.  It is not really a grey area. You take a chance of winning the battle or committing battlefield suicide.

And not everyone would see things that way which makes it all the more interesting. I mean, look at how many people lamented the fact that they were forced to work with Cerberus back in ME2? There're simply times where some will knowingly choose a less advantageous option out for principle and for them that'd probably make a pretty good gray choice.

You mean that the person sets out to lose and costs the lives of other people. That is not how battles are won. Luckily they will only be playing a game.

[Lau Maru]

just kinda jumpin in here based off opening writ.
One great aspect of rpgs is the fact its kinda mandatory to loot dead foes and laugh at oddities u find.
Secondly, slave ownership should become a possibility for protagonist, such as wasting coin on slave market or enslaving the slaves of enemies. its not necessary of course, but having that option may open various moral questioning.
As far rape is concerned, how twisted would have been if hawke raped EVERY body he/she saved? I think just having the option to do these horrid acts should open more scenes or rivalries where your party members might actually try to kill you, be it open violence or perhaps more subtly such as poisoning PC or other assassination attempts.
And for drug use... I got nuthin in that one beyond possibly destroying or conquering underworld.
I think if DA:I utilizes such corruption to greater effect there should be greater consequences. such as you can't smuggle lyrium to mages AND Templars else BOTH hunt you down. Or if slavery becomes option, the manner in which one treats their slaves, voluntary or otherwise, could have severe repercussions, be ii slaves rebel against you or try to protect you from other enemies.

[Lau Maru]

as for characters lacking in corruption, their good behavior should be rewarded as well... nothing comes to mind at moment but their should be something...

[karushna5]

No, if it is entertaining they did it wrong, they attach suffering without going into it. They just say it is suffering and never show it so it is all for kicks, you want to explore rape? Then you don't understand it. A realistic game on rape, would have the protagonist going through all that, and more. It would not be in a fantasy setting, and it would be horrific, not sad, not shocking, horrific, and helpless, it would give you 5 different responses to get out of the situation and afterwards replay every option sarcastic, diplomatic, sarcastic, clever and none of them will work, instead of the star child it would be that scene over and over I between each act. Does that sound like a fun game? That is how you explore rape realistically, and explore human suffering. It should never be fun.

Also yes men do get raped, and that is horrific as well. Women are rarely the perpetrators but it does happen, although being a man and raped comes with its own horrors different from women and some the same, I just don't like to speak for them because I could never understand it, and don't wish to as I have enough horror for myself. But the fact remains that women are usually the victims and men usually the perpetrators and video games usually support this.

finally that isn't a mature situation. That is not the right way to show, I can stay good but less able or be corrupted by evil, it is a good theme but doesn't work with rape. You are giving the chevaliers a bad trait without ever understanding it. Your version seems like we can take the wizards who kick puppies, or the hobbits who are nice. It isn't mature and just forces a choice to prove you must be illogical to be nice. It is pro the rapists without putting a face on it. That is not morally grey, it is just forcing you down illogical route or promoting that same evil.

Where is the thing of, I get the chevaliers BUT anyone who touches anyone inappropriately will lose their station and fall to the inquisition?

[Ryzaki]

You know what. I know rape is a common experience, happens to people regardless of age, gender and so on. That it's unpleasant and realistic, and whatnot.

But seriously? I rather not have it shoved in my face even more than it already is. Unrealistic or no I'm just tired of it. Tired of it being used as a plot device, tired of it being used as a shortcut for character trauma/back story tired, tired, tired. The DA series has enough rape in it for me. I really do not desire it being shoved in my face even more.

[Boycott Bioware]

A good leader will pick the well-trained armored soldiers because he/she is trying to win the battle. It makes no sense to take the poorly trained, ill-equipped men and lead them to slaughter. It is not really a grey area. You take a chance of winning the battle or committing battlefield suicide.

Not necessary so. Many things can be taken in consideration such as discipline. A well trained army are a waste if having no discipline. And then health condition, the rapists are more exposed to sickness such as syphilis or any other sexual transmitted disease. Then look at morale, undisciplined army have low morale, maybe they are proud but they are coward.

In contra, the poor trained troop can be trained, the poor equipped can be equipped, what important is discipline and morale. They are healthy, they have nothing to loose, they have no reputation to up hold, unleash them in battle then you get lions...

Arabs saying " the army of sheep led by a lion can defeat an army of lions led by a sheep". And it is proven, Arabs was very small, isolated, but then...shaking the world...

In Japan, Oda Nobunaga only use "Ashigaru", the militias, defeating all samurais of other clans and once he become the Shogun. He died assassinated, but Oda Nobunaga is well known brilliant. He encourage and inspire the farmers and peasants, turn them into lions.

Modifié par Qistina, 31 mai 2013 - 07:15 .

[karushna5]

Agreed. I would hate a game like that, I am saying they want human suffering and explore it, I meant they didn't know what exploring it means and to stop quoting realism because nothing they call real is and exploring human suffering like that is invasive and horrifying

I don't want rape at all, its getting me sick, I just want people to stop asking for it. It has brought up so much and I thought if I could explain it they wouldn't want it. I was wrong.

[Dave of Canada]

Qistina wrote...

In DA:o we being hinted that Chevaliers are bad, they love to rape women and can get away with it because of they are Chevaliers...i want to see that in DA:I

We already did. Vaughan.