216 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Qistina wrote...

In DA:o we being hinted that Chevaliers are bad, they love to rape women and can get away with it because of they are Chevaliers...i want to see that in DA:I

We already did. Vaughan.

Vaughn, Alrik, Kerass (if you don't kill him) I mean really why do we need more? It's there. It's acknowledged.

[Lau Maru]

The whole rape issue should it come to fruition, not been shown but implied. do not misunderstand where I stand on such things. I do not like seeing these things in life, but within fantasy setting, regardless of medium be it game, book etc., if it provokes emotions and progressed story and gives better understanding of character psyche, then it has served its purpose in the fact u understand hero is not one to be admired thus, the possibility of a "failed" ending could make the over all story more worthwhile. I do not recoil my previous posts, being they are my impartial opinion, but before even bringing up such issues, regardless of mrib value, one should try to remain a bit more neutral and try to observe things from another viewpoint. we are discussing a game in hypotheticals and not the performing of deeds.

[karushna5]

I don't think it is about just the game, I honestly believe the way it is shown in video games makes it happen more in real life. I feel it adds nothing because the insight into character is fake, and the emotion is tintillation not horror which means once again there is no reason to add it in.

And someone who is a self insert of a character should never never rape anybody, if it is an option then there will be more of them. So no rape in video games.

[Ryzaki]

karushna5 wrote...

I don't think it is about just the game, I honestly believe the way it is shown in video games makes it happen more in real life. I feel it adds nothing because the insight into character is fake, and the emotion is tintillation not horror which means once again there is no reason to add it in.

And someone who is a self insert of a character should never never rape anybody, if it is an option then there will be more of them. So no rape in video games.

There is already rape in video games even this one.

I just fail to see why we need more of it. There are other games that do that, mods even. Want a rapist for an ally? Play ADWR or something. I mean...I just don't see how that's needed in DAI. 

That said showing less lovable rogues would be nice. Thieves suck.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 mai 2013 - 07:31 .

[Wulfram]

Let's not overdo the "Chevaliers are rapists" thing. Some Chevalier are, and there's no way for commoners to hold them to account, which is horrible. Doesn't mean that most of them aren't reasonably decent types who don't abuse their status in that way.

Modifié par Wulfram, 31 mai 2013 - 07:34 .

[karushna5]

EntropicAngel wrote...

simply a normal rapist.

Video games cause these words to be strung together. We see so much of t in fiction they are treated like puppy kickers. Better to not have them at all.

[bEVEsthda]

Ryzaki wrote...

You know what. I know rape is a common experience, happens to people regardless of age, gender and so on. That it's unpleasant and realistic, and whatnot.

But seriously? I rather not have it shoved in my face even more than it already is. Unrealistic or no I'm just tired of it. Tired of it being used as a plot device, tired of it being used as a shortcut for character trauma/back story tired, tired, tired. The DA series has enough rape in it for me. I really do not desire it being shoved in my face even more.

So don't play female city elf in DA:O. then.

Personally, I appreciated that story very much. It's probably the most bitter Origin in DA:O. It remains so throughout an eventual romance with Alistair... I think D.G did that masterfully. I've never been so humiliated and betrayed in a RPG before. And yes, I appreciated that. And throughout Awakening as well. And it provides perfect background for the PC's acts. Whatever they may be.
I don't reject playing a victimized character in a game. Just as don't reject reading fiction featuring protagonists that suffer.

[Naitaka]

karushna5 wrote...

I don't think it is about just the game, I honestly believe the way it is shown in video games makes it happen more in real life. I feel it adds nothing because the insight into character is fake, and the emotion is tintillation not horror which means once again there is no reason to add it in.

And someone who is a self insert of a character should never never rape anybody, if it is an option then there will be more of them. So no rape in video games.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me your issue has more to do with how rape has been protrayed in video game in the past, so if Bioware actually manage to better protray it in DA:I and evoke horror and not tintillation wouldn't that actually be a good thing? Take for the Chevalier example, what if one of our companion holds similiar view and insight toward rape as you do? Would that change whether you'll take the Chevalier as allies or the untrained soldiers? I think what I'm getting at is that to say that it'll add absolutely nothing to the game just seem a little narrow-minded. It would be like saying that the violent death of a loved one would add nothing but promote murder.

[Lau Maru]

Now I see your passion karushna5, and I agree, in part of the mirrored sociology of such things in which, for example after the GTA series debuted crime has nearly doubled amongst young adults in the past ten years in America and there is a universal apathy amongst our youth. so I see what you're talking about. while I agree, I must also disagree, especially as far as entertainment value. I was disappointed in FF13 in the fact it seemed to drag players along the story, where as bioware strives to break such boundaries by allowing players to in part at least guide story's direction. that's y I love bioware, but to completely shut out gameplay possibilities on moral ground is wrong. it limits free speech, and we may as well go back to medieval church censorship. players have a right to choose such unsavory acts as a choice within a fictional world, regardless whether or not they actually choose it. the point is there is the choice.

[Naitaka]

Lau Maru wrote...

Now I see your passion karushna5, and I agree, in part of the mirrored sociology of such things in which, for example after the GTA series debuted crime has nearly doubled amongst young adults in the past ten years in America and there is a universal apathy amongst our youth. so I see what you're talking about. while I agree, I must also disagree, especially as far as entertainment value. I was disappointed in FF13 in the fact it seemed to drag players along the story, where as bioware strives to break such boundaries by allowing players to in part at least guide story's direction. that's y I love bioware, but to completely shut out gameplay possibilities on moral ground is wrong. it limits free speech, and we may as well go back to medieval church censorship. players have a right to choose such unsavory acts as a choice within a fictional world, regardless whether or not they actually choose it. the point is there is the choice.

That's a pretty bold statement to make. To even suggest that the release of GTA caused or even corrolated with an increase in violent crime among American's youth you'd need to have a much more in-depth study than just random statistic. It'd be like saying that since the advent of mobile phone the speed at which the polar ice cap is melting has increased by 10 fold proves that the the microwave emitted by mobile devices is the culprit or something equally as ridiculous. Another thing I'd like to point out though, having something discussed/explored as an issue is not the same as giving player the option to commit the act.

Modifié par Naitaka, 31 mai 2013 - 08:07 .

[bEVEsthda]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Lau Maru wrote...

Now I see your passion karushna5, and I agree, in part of the mirrored sociology of such things in which, for example after the GTA series debuted crime has nearly doubled amongst young adults in the past ten years in America and there is a universal apathy amongst our youth. so I see what you're talking about. while I agree, I must also disagree, especially as far as entertainment value. I was disappointed in FF13 in the fact it seemed to drag players along the story, where as bioware strives to break such boundaries by allowing players to in part at least guide story's direction. that's y I love bioware, but to completely shut out gameplay possibilities on moral ground is wrong. it limits free speech, and we may as well go back to medieval church censorship. players have a right to choose such unsavory acts as a choice within a fictional world, regardless whether or not they actually choose it. the point is there is the choice.

We're still there, pal: Hate speech.

Or does "free speech" not really mean "free speech."

Hmm, I really don't get this comment?

Just out of the blue, I think it's an unfair angle, against Lau Maru's post.
Further, it's not particularly progressive, in regards to the discussion? Is it?

But as I say, I don't get it, so I may completely misunderstand something.

[Lau Maru]

F*** censorship. just because one person doesn't agree w/ something does not mean something should be constrained, regardless of distastefulness, that's what freedom of speech is about.

[Lau Maru]

wow I just realized how slow I type

[bEVEsthda]

EntropicAngel wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Hmm, I really don't get this comment?

Just out of the blue, I think it's an unfair angle, against Lau Maru's post.
Further, it's not particularly progressive, in regards to the discussion? Is it?

But as I say, I don't get it, so I may completely misunderstand something.

Lau makes my point:

Lau Maru wrote...

F*** censorship. just because one person doesn't agree w/ something does not mean something should be constrained, regardless of distastefulness, that's what freedom of speech is about.

Whether it's talking about rape in a video game, or it's saying something racist in a video game, free speech is free speech--or conversely, lack of free speech is the same either way.


The point of my comment was to point out that we already have free speech infringed upon, fairly heavily.

Aah, OK.
...but better let sleeping dogs lay. Don't drag in too much peripheral issues.

[Ryzaki]

bEVEsthda wrote...
So don't play female city elf in DA:O. then.

Personally, I appreciated that story very much. It's probably the most bitter Origin in DA:O. It remains so throughout an eventual romance with Alistair... I think D.G did that masterfully. I've never been so humiliated and betrayed in a RPG before. And yes, I appreciated that. And throughout Awakening as well. And it provides perfect background for the PC's acts. Whatever they may be.
I don't reject playing a victimized character in a game. Just as don't reject reading fiction featuring protagonists that suffer.

I did play it actually. Didn't mind it that much either (that said the male version I find myself severely disliking. Love the female version though). But if something similar had been in half the female origins it'd gotten very old, very annoying very quickly. (It doesn't help that Vaughn is very one dimensional and plain idiotic (insisting on keeping the woman even when a very angry elf is standing infront of him with a bloodied sword and armor).

There already is rape and such in the DA universe.

As for betrayed in the romance with Alistair...I remain boggled how people didn't see that coming. Really. You shove the guy on a throne he does not want and then act surprised when he takes the job seriously and wants to respect his future wife.  I was more surprised you could actually harden him.

Neither do I. (I have played ADWR among other games with rape as a running theme) I just don't an excess of it in every.single.thing.I.play. Excess is annoying no matter the form. DA felt fine where it was on this issue. I mean...child rape is also very very common. Nothing wrong with not wanting it shoved in your face all the time no matter how realistic it is. I just don't see how DA series could benefit from more of it.

**edited to hopefully clarify my point better

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 mai 2013 - 08:33 .

[bEVEsthda]

Ryzaki wrote...
I did play it actually. Didn't mind it that much either. But if something similar had been in half the female origins it'd gotten very old, very annoying very quickly. (It doesn't help that Vaughn is very one dimensional and plain idiotic (insisting on keeping the woman even when a very angry elf is standing infront of him with a bloodied sword and armor).

There already is rape and such in the DA universe.

As for betrayed in the romance with Alistair...I remain boggled how people didn't see that coming. Really. You shove the guy on a throne he does not want and then act surprised when he takes the job seriously and wants to respect his future wife.  I was more surprised you could actually harden him.

Neither do I. (I have played ADWR among other games with rape as a running theme) I just don't want it in every.single.thing.I.play. Excess is annoying no matter the form. DA felt fine where it was on this issue.

 I despise games like GTA and Postal. Games that some 14y olds thinks are awesome, just because they can go around and do meaningless acts of evil, for lolz, without any consequences or penalties.

IMO, games that allow serious crimes, should also provide repercussions for them.

But GTA don't require you to play it exactly like that, and I don't think Bioware is about making games like GTA. I think there's zero risk.

And no, I didn't see the betrayal coming. - Of course my little city elf would sit on his side as a queen? It wasn't just the question of love, you know. She was used to Alistair doing as she told him to. And Alistair needed someone by his side, to take care of business, if you know what I mean. How else would he be able to rule?

Anyway, I appreciated the story. My city elf got to be very guarded and quiet after that, immediately pimped Morrigan for Alistair, and it affected her motives and actions throughout Awakening. Great stuff, IMO.

[karushna5]

It is not censorship. People misuse that term. Censorship is not me telling you that they have no place in games, I feel rape period does not belong in games. Murder exists in games and they made it a laughable everyday thing. A video game can not be realistic about murder the emotions are to contrary to how it works. Rape on the other hand is personal, the victims are still here and saying I get to offend you because free speech is not how free speech works.

If it did, you not playing Cinderella the game is censorship. You don't like little kid games? and won't play it? censorship! It doesn't work that way. Censorship is when you cannot produce it at all especially under threat. Some things I feel should be censored, as our country does agree on. Hate speech is not allowed and so on.

you get to make a game. I get to boycott it. I can call it offensive and warn all my friends not to play it. That is not censorship. I do think a game about a rapist protagonist is so vile no company should pick it up. That too is not censorship. They don't have to produce a game they think wrong.


what I can't understand is why must we have rape at all? there are so many other things that can get your point across well, why rape? the problem is we want worse and worse things trivializing it. Bad things don't make a plot, realistic dramatic ideas make plots. Take the city elf... Why make her unable to be saved from rape? to add your dislike of humans and elves plight?

We already knew they were selling the elves into slavery. She could have been sold into it ripped from you. Or taken as escaped. And it makes it much more dynamic and ties in to the later plot. It would have been more emotional and less tried, and no rape needed. We are just making more things that are terrible and making them mean less. It didn't fit, was random and worst of all, trite. Can we just have better scenes without making it so about the worst thing imaginable. Take Hawkes mother death. We put so many things together as incredibly upsetting. Many found it silly on how over the top it was. You could have made her death more meaningful without putting all the stuff in there that was too much. Rape is the same way, people want it because they don't get their drama enough from what we have, when we do get it, because it is so trite, we want more. Most of fiction has survived with great suffering and anguish and emotions across the board without rape. Rape is not mature or makes things more serious. It is just traumatic on some gamers and trite for others. The emotion displayed is fake and dis genuine. We need to instead focus on things fitting the story then knee jerkers that mean little.

[Ryzaki]

bEVEsthda wrote...
 I despise games like GTA and Postal. Games that some 14y olds thinks are awesome, just because they can go around and do meaningless acts of evil, for lolz, without any consequences or penalties.

IMO, games that allow serious crimes, should also provide repercussions for them.

But GTA don't require you to play it exactly like that, and I don't think Bioware is about making games like GTA. I think there's zero risk.

Hey nothing wrong with GTA! Sometimes it's nice to have a game where you blow things up and heck to consequences. As long as people are aware of the differences between fiction and reality there shouldn't be an issue. Never played Postal.

And no, I didn't see the betrayal coming. - Of course my little city elf would sit on his side as a queen? It wasn't just the question of love, you know. She was used to Alistair doing as she told him to. And Alistair needed someone by his side, to take care of business, if you know what I mean. How else would he be able to rule?

No offense but your CE sounds very naive and unaware of the game world she's in. She believed a member of a race that's almost despised by humans would be allowed to rule them (or rather since you can "rule" with a unhardened Alistair as King with the warden as Chancellor be a member of their monarchy) so openly? Even after the fiasco of her wedding? After years of seeing her people mistreated by humans and no other humans lifting a finger to stop them? :huh:Alsitair's grip on the throne would be shaky enough alone. An elven wife would probably cause riots.

Anyway, I appreciated the story. My city elf got to be very guarded and quiet after that, immediately pimped Morrigan for Alistair, and it affected her motives and actions throughout Awakening. Great stuff, IMO.

Rping is the best. My CE took Loghain's lands and a noble title she felt that was pushing it enough.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 mai 2013 - 09:01 .

[Naitaka]

karushna5 wrote...
*snip

I can definitely see where you're coming from and respect your opinion, but I just don't think that the best solution to something being handled badly in the past in video game is to pretend that the subject doesn't exist. If everyone were to take this approach then storytelling in video game would never improve. I think I'll just drop the subject now seeing as no one's going to change each others mind on this issue.

[bEVEsthda]

Ryzaki wrote...
No offense but your CE sounds very naive and unaware of the game world she's in. She believed a member of a race that's almost despised by humans would be allowed to rule them (or rather since you can "rule" with a unhardened Alistair as King with the warden as Chancellor be a member of their monarchy) so openly? Even after the fiasco of her wedding? After years of seeing her people mistreated by humans and no other humans lifting a finger to stop them? :huh:Alsitair's grip on the throne would be shaky enough alone. An elven wife would probably cause riots.

Anyway, I appreciated the story. My city elf got to be very guarded and quiet after that, immediately pimped Morrigan for Alistair, and it affected her motives and actions throughout Awakening. Great stuff, IMO.

Rping is the best. My CE took Loghain's lands and a noble title she felt that was pushing it enough.

She was in love. Why would she not think her loved one would have her? She was healing. She wanted to believe in good things again. She thought that wrongs should be righted. That the world would be made new.

She made Alistair place Anora in the tower, then sent Zevran to finish it, since Alistair wouldn't. She spent Awakening abusing her powers as Warden commander, in summarily executing as many human nobles as possible, formerly on the side of Loghain, slavers and rapists. Her bid to 'unite' the land. 

"Heav'n has no rage like love to hatred turn'd. Nor Hell a fury, like a woman scorn'd."

RolePing is the best.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 31 mai 2013 - 09:38 .

[Ninja Stan]

This is a reminder that sociopolitical commentary is discouraged on the BSN, so let's please try and keep this discussion game-related, clean, and civil. Thank you.