216 réponses à ce sujet

[Boycott Bioware]

karushna5 wrote...
what I can't understand is why must we have rape at all?

We must have rape because it is a device in the story. It give background about what is what. The game is based on medieval era, not modern era where definition of rape is different.In medieval time a girl can be married as early as 12 years old, but today is different. Today, marrying 12 years old can be considered as child rape. In medieval time there is almost no such law to execute rapists but today we have it.

The problem is modern people use wrong and unfair measurement in measuring things of the past. The writers also cannot escape being biased in their own work. Morality today are not the same with morality in the said era. For example, in DA world women are equal with men, it is obvious in DA2, if the writer wrote women are not equal, we will have feminists barking it is unfair

What should be too offended with anyway?

Let say you want to make a fantasy story based on WW2 era, but everything about n.a.z.i, racism, rape and holocaust issue being thrown out, what is the point of WW2 theme? Show only Allied forces? Allied forces are good, Germans or Japan are bad? That is unfair.

You want a game with superb story telling, grey morality, but you push the developer for not expressing some issues you feel offended by it?

Personally, i like it if DA world mirroring the real medieval era, in fantasy setting, but medieval feeling, where women are not equal, being a woman warrior is something rare, got undermined by men, even some women can't accept it and some women praise. Women as party leader is also not acceptable widely, except in rare cases. The era where women is likely do not get justice if being raped. I want to role-play that, i want to feel it, because i don't live in that world. It is not about realism vs unrealistic, it is about being fair in story telling. Comparing today liberal world morality with the past is unfair.

Similar with homosexual issue, in DA world is modern world where everyone are free sexually, while in reality homosexuals could be stoned to death. It is not about religion vs liberal/secular thing, it is what happen in the past. But DA being unfair in making a game that based on medieval setting but having modern liberal/secular morality. It is good if showing party members insult gay couple in the game, gays community can't be offended calling it is "homophobic" and so on because that is the world where the story is based upon.

That is not liberal...i am liberal, and so i ant Bioware to have freedom to make whatever story they want. Only conservatives will become reactionists, some may call themselves liberals but they are actually conservatives....

Modifié par Qistina, 01 juin 2013 - 01:13 .

[Realmzmaster]

Qistina wrote...

A good leader will pick the well-trained armored soldiers because he/she is trying to win the battle. It makes no sense to take the poorly trained, ill-equipped men and lead them to slaughter. It is not really a grey area. You take a chance of winning the battle or committing battlefield suicide.

Not necessary so. Many things can be taken in consideration such as discipline. A well trained army are a waste if having no discipline. And then health condition, the rapists are more exposed to sickness such as syphilis or any other sexual transmitted disease. Then look at morale, undisciplined army have low morale, maybe they are proud but they are coward.

In contra, the poor trained troop can be trained, the poor equipped can be equipped, what important is discipline and morale. They are healthy, they have nothing to loose, they have no reputation to up hold, unleash them in battle then you get lions...

Arabs saying " the army of sheep led by a lion can defeat an army of lions led by a sheep". And it is proven, Arabs was very small, isolated, but then...shaking the world...

In Japan, Oda Nobunaga only use "Ashigaru", the militias, defeating all samurais of other clans and once he become the Shogun. He died assassinated, but Oda Nobunaga is well known brilliant. He encourage and inspire the farmers and peasants, turn them into lions.

The point is if you take the poorly trained and ill equip and train them and give them better equipment then they become well trained. Well-trained means that they will have discipline. That is not the grey area you described. You said pick between a well-trained well equipped force and a poorly trained ill equipped force.

Also not all chevaliers are men unless you are saying that the women chevaliers are rapists.

[Boycott Bioware]

Realmzmaster wrote...
The point is if you take the poorly trained and ill equip and train them and give them better equipment then they become well trained. Well-trained means that they will have discipline. That is not the grey area you described. You said pick between a well-trained well equipped force and a poorly trained ill equipped force.

No i said pick between well armed rapist force and poorly armed non-rapist force. Your judgment on the matter. You said "good leader will choose well armed force to ensure winning", but i replay "there are many things to take into consideration"

the grey area is which group you choose? The rapist because you feel they are better, or the non-rapists because you feel they can be better?

Also not all chevaliers are men unless you are saying that the women chevaliers are rapists.

I don't know, i only give example based on Orlesian girl statement in Denerim in DA:O. If you don't agree with anything, i am not the one who you should argue with, it is not me who write the story and that scene in Denerim

[Ryzaki]

bEVEsthda wrote...
She was in love. Why would she not think her loved one would have her? She was healing. She wanted to believe in good things again. She thought that wrongs should be righted. That the world would be made new.

She made Alistair place Anora in the tower, then sent Zevran to finish it, since Alistair wouldn't. She spent Awakening abusing her powers as Warden commander, in summarily executing as many human nobles as possible, formerly on the side of Loghain, slavers and rapists. Her bid to 'unite' the land. 

"Heav'n has no rage like love to hatred turn'd. Nor Hell a fury, like a woman scorn'd."

RolePing is the best.

Wasn't wrong but was very naive and idealistic and not grounded in reality. Alistair himself is very sketchy about him being king. (Plus he has her just fine if you don't make him king.)

Nice.

Ouch

Yes yes it is :3

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 juin 2013 - 01:22 .

[Plaintiff]

If Bioware wants to use rape in their stories, then that's their prerogative. But there is absolutely no reason that they must do it. "Rape was common in x time period" is not a good justification. Rape is common now; statistically 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault some time in their life, but we don't have every sixth female protagonist in media experience rape.

I don't know the statistics for the rape of men. My understanding is that it occurs less often, but it does still occur. How many male protagonists do you know who've had to deal with sexual assault, by either another man or a woman? Not many.

I'd hazard a guess that there are close to zero male video game protagonsts who've experienced sexual assault, or even attempted sexual assault. Why? Probably because being made to feel powerless and vulnerable wouldn't be very fun. But for some reason, women are just expected to put up with those feelings because "rape is realistic". People play video games, watch movies and read books to escape from the worries of real life, I can't imagine that women would enjoy being bombarded with reminders that they're likely to be raped.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
People play video games, watch movies and read books to escape from the worries of real life.

Personal projection.

You may use videogames as a form of juvenile, power-fantasy, wish-fulfillment but that's not true of everyone.

[TEWR]

I'd hazard a guess that there are close to zero male video game protagonsts who've experienced sexual assault, or even attempted sexual assault.

Off the top of my head, Naked Snake in MGS3 was groped in the groin during a sneaking mission by a person he was disguised as, if you happen to have them see each other. And attacked in the groin during the same moment, IIRC.

[ElitePinecone]

This thread is so depressing.

Qistina wrote...
snip

Bioware have already pointed out that Dragon Age is not meant to be a literal simulation of medieval society - it has its own customs and history, for starters. Was Tolkien's fantasy in any way realistic? It reflected the values and preoccupations of early 20th-century Britain, in much the same way as you could find 21st-century norms in DA.

Arguing that the game *should* feature certain content because it's more "realistic" for the setting is pretty absurd. The setting is Bioware's to construct and deconstruct, they certainly don't have to feature anything just because you consider it more medieval.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: I'm not trying to escape anything when playing a video game - you saying that I am does not make it so (I hope you can understand that and sincerely agree).

I do nothing without exploring how it relates to the real world. There is no fantasy world I want to flee to - no spaceship I'd rather be flying.

Also - the Greeks did not put on plays for escapism. They were a sincere and deep exploration of the human being.

Might I suggest less escaping and more exploring?  You might find you don't know everything about the human psyche already (as your comments in this thread suggest).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 01 juin 2013 - 03:14 .

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: I'm not trying to escape anything when playing a video game - you saying that I am does not make it so.

What you're trying to do isn't really relevant. 

I do nothing without exploring how it relates to the real world. There is not fantasy world I want to flee to - no spaceship I'd rather be flying.

It's still escapism.

Also - the Greeks did not put on plays for escapism. They were a sincere and deep exploration of the human being.

They were still escapism. How is this hard to grasp? Escapism is not exclusive. A work can do all these things and still be escapism. Any other function a creative work performs is irrelevent to its status as a form of escapism.

[Medhia Nox]

Wow - you're an obstinate little fella.

I missed the coronation - was it fun?

[TEWR]

Plaintiff's not totally wrong. Video games are, at their core, a form of escapism. If you're playing them because the universe it takes place in is more exciting then the humdrum daily routine you go through, that's escapism. You're escaping the boredom. 

If you're playing them to avoid the harsher aspects of life (rape, murder, etc.) that's escapism as well -- though it's a form of escapism I don't particularly like.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 juin 2013 - 03:26 .

[Ninja Stan]

Second warning:

This is a reminder that sociopolitical commentary is discouraged on the BSN, so let's please try and keep this discussion game-related, clean, and civil. Thank you.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Oh Qistina you so crazy.

[TEWR]

Back to Fast Jimmy's point, I agree with what he proposes.

Hell, let's just say any time Fast Jimmy says something, it's got the TEWR Seal of Approval.

[Medhia Nox]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: What if you're not playing them for either of those reasons.

If I chose mustard over ketchup for a meal - it doesn't mean I'm "escaping ketchup" any more than if I choose to play a video game or go for a walk is any more "knee deep in realness".

I play video games to explore real world concepts. Even if those concepts are simply "puzzles" to overcome - like in a TBS or an RTS. Or to compete - as in an FPS.

Am I "escaping" to football? Is football somehow not part of reality if I'm playing it? Why is it so if I'm playing a multiplayer FPS?

I love my job A LOT - am I escaping the real world by going to work?  

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 01 juin 2013 - 03:30 .

[GodWood]

Goddammit Stan. I worked my arse off on that post fiddling with the stupid quote system.

[Medhia Nox]

@GodWood: Ninja's will get ya. Life's hard - I recommend some escapism.

[Ninja Stan]

GodWood wrote...

Goddammit Stan. I worked my arse off on that post fiddling with the stupid quote system.

And I'm working to keep an interesting discussion going for all interested parties without feeling like I have to lock it. Who wins?

[TEWR]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: What if you're not playing them for either of those reasons.

If I chose mustard over ketchup for a meal - it doesn't mean I'm "escaping ketchup" any more than if I choose to play a video game or go for a walk is any more "knee deep in realness".

I play video games to explore real world concepts. Even if those concepts are simply "puzzles" to overcome - like in a TBS or an RTS. Or to compete - as in an FPS.

Am I "escaping" to football? Is football somehow not part of reality if I'm playing it? Why is it so if I'm playing a multiplayer FPS?

I love my job A LOT - am I escaping the real world by going to work?

You could be escaping something from your non-work life. Maybe you had a fight with your friend and you went to work, a place you love. You're then "escaping" the bad part of the real world that happened that day. You're also occupying your time.

Escapism and exploration are not mutually exclusive concepts, in my view. You can play a game that tackles meaningful issues that you end up reflecting on (during or after) -- the exploration -- as a means to pass the time -- the escapism. In fact, if I understand one Norwegian scholar's comments on the nature of escapism, he says that it has two sides.

The sides being the escape from the horrifying and the exploration of ideas and concepts to expand the self.

So... yes, exploration can be viewed as escapism.

FWIW, here's the relevant information:

The Norwegian psychologist Frode Stenseng has presented a dualistic model of escapism in relation to different types of activity engagements. He discusses the paradox that the flow state (Csikszentmihalyi) resembles psychological states obtainable through actions such as drug abuse, sexual masochism, and suicide ideation (Baumeister).

Accordingly, he deduces that the state of escape can have both positive and negative meanings and outcomes. Stenseng argues that there exists two forms of escapism with different affective outcomes dependent on the motivational focus that lays behind the immersion in the activity. Escapism in the form of self-suppression stems from motives to run away from unpleasant thoughts, self-perceptions, and emotions, whereas self-expansion stems from motives to gain positive experiences through the activity and to discover new aspects of self.

Stenseng has developed the Escape scale to measure self-suppression and self-expansion in people´s favorite activities, such as sports, arts, and gaming. Empirical investigations of the model have shown that (1) the two dimensions are distinctively different with regards to affective outcomes, (2) that some individuals are more prone to engage through one type of escapism, and (3) that situational levels of well-being affects the type of escapism that becomes dominant at a specific time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 juin 2013 - 03:48 .

[UnderlAlDyingSun]

Volus Warlord wrote...

DatOneFanboy wrote...

id like that Should just keep pushing the game to 18+ making it more realistic

LOLZ!

Bioware is NEVER going to make an 18+ game. It'd hurt sales. A lot. 

I'm surprised they never tried to push down to a T rating for that reason.

I can see how dark elements would make a game more appealing to certain folk. However, they are not targeting certain folk, they are targeting EVERYONE. Bioware is not trying to make niche games. They are trying to make games with a more diverse clientelle in mind. 

You see, some of the dark elements you would love someone else would hate, and refuse to buy the game on that standard alone. As a result, those dark elements tend to make the game more and more niche, as again what will really appeal to some will turn others off.

Also, you tend to get these annoying ass activist groups targeting your game for whatever. We saw this with Tomb Raider in which a TRAILER-not the game-had something that could be readily construed as an attempted rape scene. We saw something similar with ME1. Or  loads of other stuff. 

So no to darker elements is far more likely for financial reasons and PR reasons. If they exist, they will be handled carefully, severely watered down, and/or pandered to death. 

It's true. Bioware's customer base generally consist of fat kids so they need to keep their themes Disney and or somehow related to high fructose corn syrup.

On subject of those gameplay elements, I highly doubt they could produce anything at this point that I hadn't already experienced in a game before, subjects and themes which were likely better demonstrated across other non BW titles.  

If I came across more material of this nature in DA:I that's fine, welcome even.

[Realmzmaster]

Qistina wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
The point is if you take the poorly trained and ill equip and train them and give them better equipment then they become well trained. Well-trained means that they will have discipline. That is not the grey area you described. You said pick between a well-trained well equipped force and a poorly trained ill equipped force.

No i said pick between well armed rapist force and poorly armed non-rapist force. Your judgment on the matter. You said "good leader will choose well armed force to ensure winning", but i replay "there are many things to take into consideration"

the grey area is which group you choose? The rapist because you feel they are better, or the non-rapists because you feel they can be better?

Also not all chevaliers are men unless you are saying that the women chevaliers are rapists.

I don't know, i only give example based on Orlesian girl statement in Denerim in DA:O. If you don't agree with anything, i am not the one who you should argue with, it is not me who write the story and that scene in Denerim

You really did not read the information on Sir Aveline for who Aveline Vallen is named? That story is part of the codex. Also the girl in Denerim is talking about one particular chevalier not all of them. Yes there are female chevaliers. 
Also you set up the assumption that all in the poorly trained non-rapist force are just that. You have no way of knowing what those men have done. That is why it is not a grey issue. Great and good leaders make use of the material at hand. If that means highly trained men who have rape need to be used to win a battle they will use them as well as prisoners (who may have raped) slaves and anyone else they can train. Doing anything else is battlefield suicide. 

[In Exile]

GodWood wrote..
You may use videogames as a form of juvenile, power-fantasy, wish-fulfillment but that's not true of everyone.

Whereas you seek out games where you can play out as a brutalized victim with no hope of retaliation against your captors and tormentors? 

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hey nothing wrong with GTA! Sometimes it's nice to have a game where you blow things up and heck to consequences. As long as people are aware of the differences between fiction and reality there shouldn't be an issue. Never played Postal.
No offense but your CE sounds very naive and unaware of the game world she's in. She believed a member of a race that's almost despised by humans would be allowed to rule them (or rather since you can "rule" with a unhardened Alistair as King with the warden as Chancellor be a member of their monarchy) so openly? Even after the fiasco of her wedding? After years of seeing her people mistreated by humans and no other humans lifting a finger to stop them? :huh:Alsitair's grip on the throne would be shaky enough alone. An elven wife would probably cause riots.
Rping is the best. My CE took Loghain's lands and a noble title she felt that was pushing it enough.

I love the way you think! On my first playthrough, My female Mage Warden and Alistair stayed Wardens and were very happy together with Loghain's crap. He didn't want to be King and i've heard enough of 'magic should never rule man" to know me being Queen wasn't going to happen. There is no way an elf is going to sit on any throne either. I actually like that about DAO, you don't automatically get the outcome you desire simply because you're the main character. Alistair dumps you if you're not fit to be Queen. "Oh you thought you were also gonna sit on the throne too? Ha! goodbye"

My second female mage became his mistress and I had a female noble who became Queen.  I also had a human noble who married Anora and left Alistair a pathetic drunk at the hanged man.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 01 juin 2013 - 05:22 .