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[KiwiQuiche]

Filament wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

To explain; Tevinter is one of the few parts we haven't heard a lot about in the DA. We have Fenris, yet his memory is blanked and he's an annoying brooder so he is largely irrelevant. With a Magister it could be a variety of reasons why they would join you; they could know about Loony McMad Titus after he went insane and started pulling that dragon crap out and wishing to find out the source of his power; and since the PC will be caught in the thick of the Thedas-done-mad, their best bet would be with the PC. That would make sense since a lot of Magisters crave more power and since the PC is central, it would make sense to accompany them.

Or you could get an apprentice of a Magister whom you killed who wishes to serve you (makes sense if you're a mage) but I would largely prefer a full-blown Magister to an apprentice.

Thank you for explaining. In truth I agree that there could be plenty of reasons why a magister would join, and those seem like reasonable ones. It was just that your original comment about Alistair and Aveline didn't seem... thorough, to me.

Oh, you mean that comment? I was mainly pointing out to Solmanian that the PC's of previous Dragon Age titles already have 'high profile' companions, so having a Magister wouldn't be too big of a stretch, especially considering the current state of Thedas and the comic series.

[Tinxa]

ElitePinecone wrote...

This was getting slightly off-topic, but in summary: I don't mind the idea of an outcast Tevinter magister rebelling against their culture and nation (whether that's Mae or Dorian), and I think there's a lot of storytelling potential there in the clash between personal morality and a society constructed on being a ruthless oppressor of everyone below you. It's a trope we've seen with Sith characters for years, but I still like the resulting drama.

I would prefer too see the opposite actually. A likable magister who actually likes Tevinter and is not a crazed evil mage. I'm really sick of Tevinter just being EVIL, EVIL, EVIL, just because they have slaves. It's just a country and should have good sides and bad sides. I would like a partymember to present the good things about it and not be some antislavery crusader against the EVIL Tevinter.

[ElitePinecone]

I think it's possible for someone from Tevinter to present a case that it has good sides while *also* being an antislavery crusader (or an anti-magocracy crusader, an anti-hierarchy crusader, whatever). Political dissidents can truthfully claim to love their country while disagreeing vehemently with a particular policy or issue, after all. Voicing criticism about domestic politics (such as it is, I guess, in Tevinter) doesn't mean they hate the entire country, or that they're not "patriotic".

I mean, presumably someone like Dorian who grew up there is crusading against the 'evil' side of his homeland (as he sees it) in order to 'save' it, not because he finds no good things about it. He's allegedly already an outcast, and if he had no reason to care for Tevinter's future he could easily just stay away entirely and not bother campaigning (violently?) for reform. The country must have some redeeming qualities, if he's willing to try to change things.

[Reznore57]

Well Tevinter is/was one of the only place pro mage.
I mean it's not like " Dorian" or Mae could just go "I'm bored with this slavery crap etc I'm going to er...that place where there's no templar ,chantry , qunari...where a mage can be free ...oh yeah Tevinter."

[Beaubier]

Potential spoilers, but:

Isn't Mae probably a disgraced Magister after the events of the comics? That would make her less likely to be tied down in Tevinter, more likely to set out on adventure (or be on the run!), wouldn't it?

Either way, I'd love to have her as a romance option and companion.

[Fredward]

Beaubier wrote...

Potential spoilers, but:

Isn't Mae probably a disgraced Magister after the events of the comics? That would make her less likely to be tied down in Tevinter, more likely to set out on adventure (or be on the run!), wouldn't it?

Either way, I'd love to have her as a romance option and companion.

I'm not too sure about the first part. As far as I know Titus was working relatively solo, wasn't he? I'd chalk it up to Magister infighting. I get the idea it's pretty common.

As for the second part, Mae will never be a LI. Some guys already flail in panic when Anders flirts with them can you imagine the furor if they romanced Mae and found out she had a dick? Society still has a long, long way to go before this kind of thing is gonna be accepted.

[Eyerock]

WHile hoping for her as a companion or LI might be a long shot, this character should definitely be represented in this game as a powerful and noble ally to the player.

On the top of my head I can't think of ANY transgendered characters being represented in a videogame as little more than a childish joke (a joke that Bioware universe have been using in BOTH its games).

[ElitePinecone]

There were some interesting tumblr posts by David Gaider about Mae and trans characters in games generally in the last few days.

On transgender characters

On transgender characters: follow up note

Some quotes:

I don’t think video game culture is ready for transgender characters— not as major plot characters, and certainly not as a lead. It’s not ready for major characters that are gay, either. Heck, it’s barely ready for ones which are female.

Does that mean the industry should wait until it is? Probably not.

Also, about Mae's creation:

That’s around the time I started working on “Those Who Speak”, the second Dragon Age comic title for Dark Horse Comics. I needed a contact character for Varric in the Tevinter Imperium, and at first it was just an “old friend”. Boring. A female old friend, someone with a bit of moxy? Better.

Then I thought: What about someone who’s transgender? How would they survive in the shark-infested waters of Tevinter’s Magisterium, where “different” is a sign of weakness? Where everything beyond the accepted norm must be done in secret lest one become a pariah? How strong and defiant would such a character have to be to not only live but thrive in that environment?

That appealed to me, though I still didn’t want her to be “the transgender character”, to jump into view and immediately announce this aspect of her as if it were the sole reason she was present in the story— because it wasn’t. I wondered if maybe I needed to mention it at all, if that couldn’t come up later? In a way that didn’t read like an after school special? I mean, could it?

I included it as part of the pitch to Dark Horse, and they didn’t bat an eyelash. In fact, they thought it was great. “Do it,” was all I got back. I tossed the idea to Chad Hardin, the artist, along with a picture of Mae West (because I have a thing for Mae West and always have). I said “let’s make sure someone can go back and see it in her hips and her body” and he happily included that in the concept. He didn’t make it obvious. He didn’t sexualize her. Everyone was on board, and though Mae’s part in “Those Who Speak” actually got mostly cut, everyone accepted her return in “Until We Sleep” as a given.

And it did give me pause. Where were the expected objections? Yes, someone could say “it’s only a comic, not even the video game”— and thus not ‘the big time’ insofar as BioWare is concerned. While that’s true, it’s certainly serious business to Dark Horse. They consider what appeals to their audience and what’s commercially viable, too. Was the hesitancy all in my head? Was I assuming resistance that wasn’t actually there? Maybe so.

When I wrote the outline for “Until We Sleep”, I was nervous enough about Mae’s reveal and her part in the story to contact Mattie Brice, a transgender fan (and fellow developer— check out Mainichi, if you get the chance), to ask her opinion. Was the reveal (done via Maevaris being found partly-disrobed in a dungeon) too potentially titillating? Were the things she says in the Fade, or her advice to Qunari-Isabella, going to ring a false note? I had no idea. I’d have hated myself if I’d inadvertantly written something stupid— and I’d once been forced to ask the right adjective for “transgender” on Twitter. What the hell did I know?

Mattie helped, a lot. She suggested a couple of minor changes, but anything more would have required space in the comic which just didn’t exist. Which is sad, as there were things I wanted to squeeze in, and some of Mattie’s suggestions gave me thoughts— and that probably means I’m not quite done with Maevaris just yet— but I was happy with the result even so. After all was said and done, it didn’t seem so terrible to run the subject matter by someone who obviously knows better. Maybe having the option to do so would make more creators less nervous about writing outside their comfort zone? My own comfort zone is not very big. I know whereof I speak.

And:

Even after all that, though, I still cringe at the idea of introducing a major transgender character. Not for the idea or the potential, but for the character itself. What they will be subjected to in the court of fan opinion, and the ugliness that would inevitably get exposed. What transgender fans would have to read, dare they venture their public support. My heart aches at the weight such a character would bear, far more than any character should ever have to.

Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t ever happen.

The pair of articles are both worth reading in full, they're really very insightful.

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 16 juin 2013 - 01:13 .

[Battlebloodmage]

I would love her to be a companion, but I'm not sure if the fans are mature enough to handle a character like her.

[Xilizhra]

Dorian (from his admittedly patchy survey bio) is described as an outcast from Tevinter, crusading against the rest of the magisters and what they represent. He also seems to be (if we can take his name as a guide) somewhat of a witty and playful quasi-Victoran dandy; his last name is Latin for 'peacock'. His raison d'etre, to be short, is the destruction of Tevinter's "corruption" in the form of - presumably - the magocracy.

Quite frankly, I just find this irritating. I don't want Tevinter's magocracy to fall. The slave system, sure, but the magocracy is no worse than any other government in Thedas, and editorializing about how bad it is... I just really don't like the idea.

Seeing Maevaris would also be quite nice. I say bring on the douchebags, and let them fall away like flies.

[KiwiQuiche]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dorian (from his admittedly patchy survey bio) is described as an outcast from Tevinter, crusading against the rest of the magisters and what they represent. He also seems to be (if we can take his name as a guide) somewhat of a witty and playful quasi-Victoran dandy; his last name is Latin for 'peacock'. His raison d'etre, to be short, is the destruction of Tevinter's "corruption" in the form of - presumably - the magocracy.

Quite frankly, I just find this irritating. I don't want Tevinter's magocracy to fall. The slave system, sure, but the magocracy is no worse than any other government in Thedas, and editorializing about how bad it is... I just really don't like the idea.

Seeing Maevaris would also be quite nice. I say bring on the douchebags, and let them fall away like flies.

I'm with Xilizhra on this.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dorian (from his admittedly patchy survey bio) is described as an outcast from Tevinter, crusading against the rest of the magisters and what they represent. He also seems to be (if we can take his name as a guide) somewhat of a witty and playful quasi-Victoran dandy; his last name is Latin for 'peacock'. His raison d'etre, to be short, is the destruction of Tevinter's "corruption" in the form of - presumably - the magocracy.

Quite frankly, I just find this irritating. I don't want Tevinter's magocracy to fall. The slave system, sure, but the magocracy is no worse than any other government in Thedas, and editorializing about how bad it is... I just really don't like the idea.

Seeing Maevaris would also be quite nice. I say bring on the douchebags, and let them fall away like flies.

Nah no excuses, Tevinter needs a radical revolution too if the mages in Andrastian nations are allowed to hold positions of power.

[KiwiQuiche]

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dorian (from his admittedly patchy survey bio) is described as an outcast from Tevinter, crusading against the rest of the magisters and what they represent. He also seems to be (if we can take his name as a guide) somewhat of a witty and playful quasi-Victoran dandy; his last name is Latin for 'peacock'. His raison d'etre, to be short, is the destruction of Tevinter's "corruption" in the form of - presumably - the magocracy.

Quite frankly, I just find this irritating. I don't want Tevinter's magocracy to fall. The slave system, sure, but the magocracy is no worse than any other government in Thedas, and editorializing about how bad it is... I just really don't like the idea.

Seeing Maevaris would also be quite nice. I say bring on the douchebags, and let them fall away like flies.

Nah no excuses, Tevinter needs a radical revolution too if the mages in Andrastian nations are allowed to hold positions of power.

Why? What Tevinter does should have no impacts on other nations unless they attack them directly; it's just the Chantry's anti-mage doctrine at work and since the Chantry has gone to smash...

[The Hierophant]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Why? What Tevinter does should have no impacts on other nations unless they attack them directly; it's just the Chantry's anti-mage doctrine at work and since the Chantry has gone to smash...

Tevinter slavers kidnap countless people across Thedas  in order to meet the demands of it's mages. Plus if you take away Tevinter's slavery their society would collapse.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 16 juin 2013 - 02:34 .

[KiwiQuiche]

The Hierophant wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Why? What Tevinter does should have no impacts on other nations unless they attack them directly; it's just the Chantry's anti-mage doctrine at work and since the Chantry has gone to smash...

Tevinter slavers kidnap countless people across Thedas  in order to meet the demands of it's mages. Plus if you take away Tevinter's slavery their society would collapse.

Actually, a lot of countries sell their people to Tevinter; remember Loghain? Gold changes a lot of peoples minds.

At least they don't lie about what they are doing though- and a crapload of other societies in Thedas need a massive revamp. Only one which is vaguely normal is Fereldan.

[keightdee]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

I would love her to be a companion, but I'm not sure if the fans are mature enough to handle a character like her.

That's tough because, while I agree, part and parcel of change-making is pushing the envelope, exposing people to things that make them uncomfortable and forcing them to confront their preconceptions. Gaider does a good job in his post of explaining why, even knowing that, a trans* character would be risky proposition for Bioware.

It's a crapsack world full of ****ty Catch-22s, man. People fear what they don't understand (kind of like .. magic .. hey, way a tick—) and challenging that means putting your butt on the line. I can't blaim them for not wanting to, though I desperately wish they would.

[keightdee]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

At least they don't lie about what they are doing though- and a crapload of other societies in Thedas need a massive revamp. Only one which is vaguely normal is Fereldan.

I don't understand this notion people have that just because you're honest about some terrible thing the honesty somehow excuses a degree of its terribleness. But anyway, if we're taking Thedas seriously, I'm sure all of these nations are normal to the people who've been raised in them. That's how culture works.

[KiwiQuiche]

keightdee wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

At least they don't lie about what they are doing though- and a crapload of other societies in Thedas need a massive revamp. Only one which is vaguely normal is Fereldan.

I don't understand this notion people have that just because you're honest about some terrible thing the honesty somehow excuses a degree of its terribleness. But anyway, if we're taking Thedas seriously, I'm sure all of these nations are normal to the people who've been raised in them. That's how culture works.

Knowing what you are doing and blatantly lying or trying to excuse it can be worse; Tevinter makes no excuses about their slavery. Loghain tried to do so and became a untrustworthy liar in the process.

Thedas seems to be a bit of a crapshack world. And that's why Tevinter citizens see no problem with it and why the Chantry are major hypocrites.

[The Hierophant]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Why? What Tevinter does should have no impacts on other nations unless they attack them directly; it's just the Chantry's anti-mage doctrine at work and since the Chantry has gone to smash...

Tevinter slavers kidnap countless people across Thedas  in order to meet the demands of it's mages. Plus if you take away Tevinter's slavery their society would collapse.

Actually, a lot of countries sell their people to Tevinter; remember Loghain? Gold changes a lot of peoples minds.

Not really as slavery is illegal in the Andrastian Nations. The only known groups who sidestep this law are the Orlesian nobles, the Antivan Crows, Pirates, and Tevinter slavers, while Loghain's actions are viewed as negative during the Landsmeet.

At least they don't lie about what they are doing though- and a crapload of other societies in Thedas need a massive revamp. Only one which is vaguely normal is Fereldan.

At this point in the series we barely know about Rivain's, Nevarra's, Free Marches' Anderfel's, and Antiva's society in order to make that above claim.

Plus it's no justification for Tevinter's slavery, and blood sacrificing. Kirkwall is a testament towards the Imperium's abuse, while it's been stated that the nation is returning to it's old ways.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 16 juin 2013 - 03:14 .

[KiwiQuiche]

The Hierophant wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Why? What Tevinter does should have no impacts on other nations unless they attack them directly; it's just the Chantry's anti-mage doctrine at work and since the Chantry has gone to smash...

Tevinter slavers kidnap countless people across Thedas  in order to meet the demands of it's mages. Plus if you take away Tevinter's slavery their society would collapse.

Actually, a lot of countries sell their people to Tevinter; remember Loghain? Gold changes a lot of peoples minds.

Not really as slavery is illegal in the Andrastian Nations. The only known groups who sidestep this law are the Orlesian nobles,  the Antivan Crows, Pirates, and Tevinter slavers, while Loghain's actions are viewed as negative during the Landsmeet.

At least they don't lie about what they are doing though- and a crapload of other societies in Thedas need a massive revamp. Only one which is vaguely normal is Fereldan.

At this point in the series we barely know about Rivain's, Nevarra's, Free Marches' Anderfel's, and Antiva society in order to make that above claim.

Plus it's no justification for Tevinter's slavery, and blood sacrificing. Kirkwall is a testament towards the Imperium's abuse, while it's been stated that the nation is returning to it's old ways.

They still do it though. Orlais is especially bad. Loghain still did it though- that's the point. They will still do so for money, yet people demonize Tevinter just because they don't lie or hide it.

Antiva is ruled by assassins- it's a mess. Rivain can sell their own kids off-as seen with Isabela.

Kirkwall? Oh you mean that handwave about everyone going insane? I must have forgotten it was templars and mages of the Andrastian countries and faith doing it.

[sandalisthemaker]

She should definitely be in DA:I as an important NPC at the very least.
As far as a companion, I would like that very much. There will always be people who will fuss and complain, but don't let that stop you Bioware.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 16 juin 2013 - 03:19 .

[The Hierophant]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They still do it though. Orlais is especially bad. Loghain still did it though- that's the point.

Yet Loghain's actions are considered amoral, and illegal by Ferelden's law.

They will still do so for money, yet people demonize Tevinter just because they don't lie or hide it.

Tevinter is the only Theodosian nation where slavery is legal, and only in Tevinter are the lives of countless slaves sacrificed for blood rituals.

Antiva is ruled by assassins- it's a mess. Rivain can sell their own kids off-as seen with Isabela.

No one's saying that the Andrastian Nations are immaculate, but that Tevinter is the worst of the bunch for it's state sponsored slavery, and ritual killings on top of it's caste system that discriminates against mages who are former slaves or not descended from dreamers.

Kirkwall? Oh you mean that handwave about everyone going insane? I must have forgotten it was templars and mages of the Andrastian countries and faith doing it.

No it's about Kirkwall being a former slave trading city of the Tevinter where thousands of slaves were killed over the centuries to the point that the veil was thinned.

[MisanthropePrime]

I'll be honest: I don't think the gaming public is ready for a transvestite major character. It'd cause far more controversy than it's worth.

Modifié par MisanthropePrime, 16 juin 2013 - 03:52 .

[KainD]

Oh God, another trans character, this topic confuses me so..
Why can't a man just wear a dress, makeup, be flamboyant and.. be a man?