141 réponses à ce sujet

[KiwiQuiche]

The Hierophant wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They still do it though. Orlais is especially bad. Loghain still did it though- that's the point.

Yet Loghain's actions are considered amoral, and illegal by Ferelden's law.

They will still do so for money, yet people demonize Tevinter just because they don't lie or hide it.

Tevinter is the only Theodosian nation where slavery is legal, and only in Tevinter are the lives of countless slaves sacrificed for blood rituals.

Antiva is ruled by assassins- it's a mess. Rivain can sell their own kids off-as seen with Isabela.

No one's saying that the Andrastian Nations are immaculate, but that Tevinter is the worst of the bunch for it's state sponsored slavery, and ritual killings on top of it's caste system that discriminates against mages who are former slaves or not descended from dreamers.

Kirkwall? Oh you mean that handwave about everyone going insane? I must have forgotten it was templars and mages of the Andrastian countries and faith doing it.

No it's about Kirkwall being a former slave trading city of the Tevinter where thousands of slaves were killed over the centuries to the point that the veil was thinned.

Yeah, which is why I said Fereldan is probably the best out of Thedas.

It may not be 'legal' but a lot of countries turn an intense blind eye to it

Caste system; Dwarves have this in utter overdrive. Casteless aren't even treated as people. You can do whatever you want to them without backlash. Even elves are treated as little more than dirty, lower-caste scum by Andrastian countries.

With Tevinter human or elf can beome a magister; you can kill one and take their standing. So you can drag yourself up.

Orlais nobles keep elven slaves (like Fiona) and Antiva buys children to make into assassins; who get killed if they try to leave. Hell, even Isabela is a glorified slaver.

Lousy excuses I say, to justify the lunatics in DA2. It makes even less sense as it is to go there, much less to make a Circle there, so it's the Chantry's own stupidness at fault for Kirkwall with the war. And Tevinter isn't at Kirkwall anymore/

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 16 juin 2013 - 04:21 .

[iOnlySignIn]

KainD wrote...

Why can't a man just wear a dress, makeup, be flamboyant and.. be a man?

Because you can't control the vast majority of (heterosexual) men like women do.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 16 juin 2013 - 04:43 .

[The Hierophant]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, which is why I said Fereldan is probably the best out of Thedas.

It may not be 'legal' but a lot of countries turn an intense blind eye to it

Caste system; Dwarves have this in utter overdrive. Casteless aren't even treated as people. You can do whatever you want to them without backlash. Even elves are treated as little more than dirty, lower-caste scum by Andrastian countries.

With Tevinter human or elf can beome a magister; you can kill one and take their standing. So you can drag yourself up.

Orlais nobles keep elven slaves (like Fiona) and Antiva buys children to make into assassins; who get killed if they try to leave. Hell, even Isabela is a glorified slaver.

Lousy excuses I say, to justify the lunatics in DA2. It makes even less sense as it is to go there, much less to make a Circle there, so it's the Chantry's own stupidness at fault for Kirkwall with the war. And Tevinter isn't at Kirkwall anymore. 

Kirkwall's thinned veil is still a testament towards Tevinter's treatment of it's slaves, plus how are the above examples counters towards Tevinter supporting slavery, and blood sacrificing? Heck with the examples you posted it seems like Tevinter's society is an amalgamation of the negatives of Thedas' other nations/cultures.

[MisanthropePrime]

KainD wrote...

Oh God, another trans character, this topic confuses me so..
Why can't a man just wear a dress, makeup, be flamboyant and.. be a man?

Because Bioware wants to be "progressive", which is to say, "edgy".

[ElitePinecone]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

KainD wrote...

Oh God, another trans character, this topic confuses me so..
Why can't a man just wear a dress, makeup, be flamboyant and.. be a man?

Because Bioware wants to be "progressive", which is to say, "edgy".

Read the articles - I think you're being grossly unfair to what is a sincere position. Whatever the motivations of the company from a business perspective, clearly many of the team do feel strongly about wider representation in videogames of characters that aren't white, male and straight. 

[KiwiQuiche]

The Hierophant wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Yeah, which is why I said Fereldan is probably the best out of Thedas.

It may not be 'legal' but a lot of countries turn an intense blind eye to it

Caste system; Dwarves have this in utter overdrive. Casteless aren't even treated as people. You can do whatever you want to them without backlash. Even elves are treated as little more than dirty, lower-caste scum by Andrastian countries.

With Tevinter human or elf can beome a magister; you can kill one and take their standing. So you can drag yourself up.

Orlais nobles keep elven slaves (like Fiona) and Antiva buys children to make into assassins; who get killed if they try to leave. Hell, even Isabela is a glorified slaver.

Lousy excuses I say, to justify the lunatics in DA2. It makes even less sense as it is to go there, much less to make a Circle there, so it's the Chantry's own stupidness at fault for Kirkwall with the war. And Tevinter isn't at Kirkwall anymore. 

Kirkwall's thinned veil is still a testament towards Tevinter's treatment of it's slaves, plus how are the above examples counters towards Tevinter supporting slavery, and blood sacrificing? Heck with the examples you posted it seems like Tevinter's society is an amalgamation of the negatives of Thedas' other nations/cultures.

So because Tevinter does it on the wider scale the rest of Thedas doesn't matter?

[Sutekh]

KainD wrote...

Oh God, another trans character, this topic confuses me so..
Why can't a man just wear a dress, makeup, be flamboyant and.. be a man?

Another? Between Mae and Serendipity (who's far, far away in the background), that's a grand total of two in the whole DA cast. Besides, we only get a glimpse of her transsexuality in one panel in the comics and suddenly it's too much and all that matters?

Mae is a great character. She's level-headed, classy, fun loving, intelligent and compassionate (but not overly so), but still vulnerable and not so perfect she would turn into a Mary Sue. She's also a mage who doesn't come from the Circle and a Tevinter who's not a moustache-twirling monstrous bloodthirsty slaver. All those qualities would make her a very decent companion and offer a whole new perspective on many things, provided that she fits in the plot.

[KiwiQuiche]

Sutekh wrote...

KainD wrote...

Oh God, another trans character, this topic confuses me so..
Why can't a man just wear a dress, makeup, be flamboyant and.. be a man?

Another? Between Mae and Serendipity (who's far, far away in the background), that's a grand total of two in the whole DA cast. Besides, we only get a glimpse of her transsexuality in one panel in the comics and suddenly it's too much and all that matters?

Mae is a great character. She's level-headed, classy, fun loving, intelligent and compassionate (but not overly so), but still vulnerable and not so perfect she would turn into a Mary Sue. She's also a mage who doesn't come from the Circle and a Tevinter who's not a moustache-twirling monstrous bloodthirsty slaver. All those qualities would make her a very decent companion and offer a whole new perspective on many things, provided that she fits in the plot.

Kain is just doesn't like trans aspect. Hilariously enough he's also proving some of the apprehensions other users have pointed out; gamers not being able to handle a transgendered person in their games.

But I'm with you Sutekh- I would very much like Mae as being a companion in DAI.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 16 juin 2013 - 09:30 .

[KainD]

No, no. It's not about me disliking trans aspects. I don't really care, knock yourself out and include some in the game, they might be great characters.
It's just that the trans perspective confuses the hell out of me. I myself like a lot of feminine stuff as a straight male, and I'm not sure why one has to be trans to identify with it.

As a random example this is my favourite character from KoF:
Link
A straight guy.
And I myself have a fancy hairstyle and like to do my nails.

Then I look at Mae and just see a guy that likes to wear a dress, makeup and jewellery.

Modifié par KainD, 16 juin 2013 - 01:28 .

[ElitePinecone]

Transgender individuals don't conform to one set behaviour or sexuality. What defines a transgender individual is that they feel their own gender identity doesn't match the biological sex they were born with, or assigned at birth.

The relationship between gender, biological sex and behaviour is enormously complex and contested (hello, Judith Butler), but it's simplistic to associate transgender identity *solely* with wanting to perform behaviour associated with the opposite sex. The emphasis is on identity and self-perception.

With respect, a person like yourself who identifies as male (and is sexually male) but displays what (I assume you would consider) culturally 'feminine' behaviours is vastly different to a transgender person who may be biologically male but consider their gender identity to be female. You don't consider yourself to be female, even though you might call yourself or your behaviour sometimes 'feminine'.

For a fictional character like Mae, wearing female clothing and jewellery is the external means by which she 'performs' femininity - but the basis for her gender identity is internal.

[KainD]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Transgender individuals don't conform to one set behaviour or sexuality. What defines a transgender individual is that they feel their own gender identity doesn't match the biological sex they were born with, or assigned at birth.
 

How do you know your gender? 

[Daralii]

KainD wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Transgender individuals don't conform to one set behaviour or sexuality. What defines a transgender individual is that they feel their own gender identity doesn't match the biological sex they were born with, or assigned at birth.
 

How do you know your gender? 

It's not like sexuality where you can asign a word to it based on what you take pleasure in. Gender identity has such an enormous and diverse spectrum that no specific behavior can be looked at and used to pinpoint where you lie. In most stories you read from trans people, they'll say it was just something they intrinsically knew, though I think the effect of perceived gender roles on social interactions and self perception play a significant role.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Mae is a great character. She's level-headed, classy, fun loving, intelligent and compassionate (but not overly so), but still vulnerable and not so perfect she would turn into a Mary Sue. She's also a mage who doesn't come from the Circle and a Tevinter who's not a moustache-twirling monstrous bloodthirsty slaver. All those qualities would make her a very decent companion and offer a whole new perspective on many things, provided that she fits in the plot.

+1

And because it's obnoxious to just post that: she also had the good taste to marry a dwarf.

[KainD]

Daralii wrote...
Gender identity has such an enormous and diverse spectrum that no specific behavior can be looked at and used to pinpoint where you lie.

Which for me makes gender a meaningless concept that just needs to be destroyed.  
Imo Sex and Sexuality are enough. Everything else is just a persons character. 

[ElitePinecone]

Okay, but how are your personal views on gender at all relevant to Mae's role in the game? Are you suggesting that she shouldn't be included because you don't understand transgender individuals?

[Xilizhra]

KainD wrote...

Daralii wrote...
Gender identity has such an enormous and diverse spectrum that no specific behavior can be looked at and used to pinpoint where you lie.

Which for me makes gender a meaningless concept that just needs to be destroyed.  
Imo Sex and Sexuality are enough. Everything else is just a persons character. 

If you really are wholly incapable of understanding it... then stop talking about it and stop worrying about it. Think of it like I think of air currents; I don't know all the physics of how they work, but I'm not pointing at the sky and screaming "YOU ARE AN UNKNOWN, AIR CURRENTS, AND THUS MAKING ME UNCOMFORTABLE! BLARGH!"

[KainD]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Okay, but how are your personal views on gender at all relevant to Mae's role in the game? Are you suggesting that she shouldn't be included because you don't understand transgender individuals?

Nope, not against Mae in the game at all, just a personal confused rant, that as Xil pointed out I should probably stop, lol.

[Xilizhra]

KainD wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Okay, but how are your personal views on gender at all relevant to Mae's role in the game? Are you suggesting that she shouldn't be included because you don't understand transgender individuals?

Nope, not against Mae in the game at all, just a personal confused rant, that as Xil pointed out I should probably stop, lol.

Good. Will you join our phalanx, then?

[KainD]

Xilizhra wrote...

Good. Will you join our phalanx, then?

Sure. 

[Eveangaline]

I haven't read the comics, but the idea of a magister who isn't crazyevil intrigues me.

[Senya]

If it makes sense for her to be there as a companion, sure, but it might put people who haven't read the comics or liked them off. And if she refers to King Alistair in my Prince Cousland playthrough, I'd be annoyed.

[LobselVith8]

ElitePinecone wrote...

KainD wrote...

Because Bioware wants to be "progressive", which is to say, "edgy". 

Read the articles - I think you're being grossly unfair to what is a sincere position. Whatever the motivations of the company from a business perspective, clearly many of the team do feel strongly about wider representation in videogames of characters that aren't white, male and straight. 

I hope that's represented in the depiction of more than a handful of non-white characters in the narrative, since Kirkwall seemed to lack diversity for a trading hub (which was more than a little ridiculous).

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

KainD wrote...

Because Bioware wants to be "progressive", which is to say, "edgy". 

Read the articles - I think you're being grossly unfair to what is a sincere position. Whatever the motivations of the company from a business perspective, clearly many of the team do feel strongly about wider representation in videogames of characters that aren't white, male and straight. 

I hope that's represented in the depiction of more than a handful of non-white characters in the narrative, since Kirkwall seemed to lack diversity for a trading hub (which was more than a little ridiculous).

Fergus' wife was Antivan, and was pretty white herself. While the Antivans do have more tan people than other ethnic groups, they're not as visually distinct as, say, Hispanics, it seems, being more pure Spanish/Italian. The only always-visually distinct human ethnic group that we know of is the Rivaini, which... well, yes, we could have seen more of those.

Also, Zevran was sporting a heavy tan despite having no ethnically human blood whatsoever, so that may be more a function of climate than ethnicity.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 juin 2013 - 06:40 .

[D3Perfecto93]

Who is Maevaris?

[Reznore57]

Maevaris is a magister from Tevinter.
She's in some comics , Until we Sleep /those who speak .

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Maevaris_Tilani